CUEmu - Thread Posts

Veldcath

Mon Apr 19, 2004 8:15 am

PadawanChong wrote:

Veldcath wrote:

vortexala wrote:

All because someone doesn't want to seek a Doctor for a cure.

Oh, and just to state it again... Four kilometers on speederbike to, say, Nym's, up to a ten minute wait to jump to Theed, fight through lag and spam... By the time I find a doctor I'd already be black-barred or the poison would have subsided, at which point running for a cure was a totally pointless endeavour anyhow.

They seem to think that we're lazy or ignorant in our knowledge of how to get cured. I've never once said I didn't want to see a Doctor. The thing is, you can't always find one. And if you do find a doctor, they're not always willing to cure you.

I thought perhaps a specific example of timing might deliver the message a bit better. Actually, last night I got ambushed by an Enraged Kimo while I was running a simple faction mission. Just as I was running around the side of the base to get to the entry, the kimo just popped into site. Poof! No more than 30m away. And it broke my mask scent and started after me. I ran, of course. Thankfully, I had MY Kimo out and the two started going at it, at which point I started with the pet stims and shouting to a guildie melee/doctor type with a plea for help. The three of us (my pet included) took it down. My pet got poisoned and diseased. Fortunately, I didn't. If I had, I DID have a doctor a few meters away.

But I was entirely surprised that he was on-planet to begin with. The only online doc in my guild was on-planet AND happened to be nearby. Mainly because he'd just been chasing a rebel jedi that was sighted in our town. It's not like we're doc-light... 50+ in the PA, 5 master docs. But they're always off doing other things or just plain not on. Face it, doctors are rare in some parts of the galaxies.

-V

PadawanChong

Mon Apr 19, 2004 1:40 pm

#93

vortexala wrote:

Alright, let me check my understanding here, since apparently I haven't been paying attention.

What should be introduced is something that will allow any player to, in one form or another,

heal and/or stop disease/poison.

This will have severeside effects.

It would still be better to have a Doctor cure you then to use this item.

This is a NON-Medical item.

That about sums it up, but I don't neccessarily think there should be severe side effects. Maybe just make it take longer to subside - or subside after multiple applications, depending on the strength of the poison/disease.

Or if you do want to give a side-effect, make it so you can't attack for 30-60 seconds - sort of like after you're rezzed. That would make you very cautious about using it during a time of battle.

Message Edited by PadawanChong on 04-19-2004 04:41 PM

============
GermainePropane on Virtue - City of Heroes. The best combat system in an MMO.
Lvl 43
============

Veldcath

Mon Apr 19, 2004 2:05 pm

#94

PadawanChong wrote:

vortexala wrote:

Alright, let me check my understanding here, since apparently I haven't been paying attention.

What should be introduced is something that will allow any player to, in one form or another,

heal and/or stop disease/poison.

This will have severeside effects.

It would still be better to have a Doctor cure you then to use this item.

This is a NON-Medical item.

That about sums it up, but I don't neccessarily think there should be severe side effects. Maybe just make it take longer to subside - or subside after multiple applications, depending on the strength of the poison/disease.

Or if you do want to give a side-effect, make it so you can't attack for 30-60 seconds - sort of like after you're rezzed. That would make you very cautious about using it during a time of battle.

Message Edited by PadawanChong on 04-19-2004 04:41 PM

That's exactly what I've been thinking and perhaps not communicating well. Of course, the natural order of things is to toss out lots of ideas and refine them, which has been happening all along, many thoughts getting shot down or set aside. That's brainstorming, isn't it?

I actually like the idea of severe side effects. I think its fine for such an item to be a "last ditch effort" type thing. Similar to a Muon or Pixie downer. Or the groggy cant-attack situation. Even if it takes a couple applications, I'd still support a 'downside' to it as well. Why? Because I really, really don't want to see this take the place of a doctor. I just think with doctors being as rare as they are, there should be some way to say, "Sheesh. I'm alive, there's nothing red on radar... I got away from where the spawn (or battle) is. I should be safe here for a couple minutes. Now let's gulp down those charcoal tablets and collapse for a bit before my HAM is completely black..."

The desire has never been, for me, something that'll get you right back into the fight like a doctor cure can. It's purely about having a way to stop that disease from causing MORE wounds (after the battle's over) while I DO seek out the doctor to heal what damage HAS been done. Besides, most cures do have side effects, especially the high-power ones. And I'm meaning in this real life we all live.

Another way to look at it: there's a very good chance that I'll get attacked on the drive to the starport or to whatever city has a doctor handy.If something gets me and I'm headed towards being black-barred and I can't do anything about it, an attacker only has to hit once I'm black-barred and I'm dead. There's a greater chance I can find a quiet spot to sit for a few minutes while I sit through a 'downer' that a cure has caused. Sure, I'll be just as vulnerable as if I'm black-barred, but once that subsides, I can travel with, say, HALF the affected bar rather than NONE of it. And the doctor still gets to heal my wounds and get a tip once I find one. AND, it gives me the leisure of seeking out a 'friendly' doctor if I'm overt or letting my TEF expire so the doctor I'm asking help from doesn't get TEF'd too.

So there are several bonuses that come with it but it does not in any way endanger the doctor as a /curemeister - if there's one handy, everyone will be running to them because they won't get removed from whatever fight got them in that situation in the first place.

Though if it were possible, I would suggest that there be two versions - a non-medic version which has VERY severe side-effects (you don't know what just hit you so you have to take that disgustingly nasty 'cure-all' pill) and then a version that someone part-way up the medic tree could get (requires a specific medicine-use score) with the justification that they should be able to at least classify it into one type of disease and take a more targeted 'cure-much' pill that is still nasty, but not digusting too. Leaving doctors to be the ones to do /cure that just removes the state without side effects. Not a curepack, just an object that requires med-use levels. It ought to be possible, if the game is coded the way I think would make the most sense.

-V

vortexala

Mon Apr 19, 2004 2:19 pm

#95

Now we're getting somewhere

Alright then, I like the idea of the universally usable item having severe side effects. Ranging from removing someone from the fight for a set period of time to perhaps some of the other ideas set forth.

As for the Medic Item, I'd say it'd have to be Master Medic, or at least mastery in one branch. Perhaps halve the side effects of the universal item.

And then the level of Doctor, which would be the full heal with no side-effects.

~Texxie Xetrov~
Retired Mayor of Vesania, Corellia, Chilastra
Retired Combat Medic Correspondent(Feb 04 - Dec 04)

"A Day without sunlight is like.... night."
A CU Alpha Testers Disclaimer: This CU Alpha Test Contained neither Alpha nor Testing.
Play at your own risk, but don't blame us...

Veldcath

Mon Apr 19, 2004 2:22 pm

#96

And just for the record, I (myself) am not talking about healing anything. I'm only talking about stopping MORE wounds from happening. Healing is only for medpacks and the users thereof. And unlike the others on here, I am only concerned with Disease, as a strong disease can render you permenantely (until seeing a healer) at 1 health, action and/or mind whereas poison can lower you there and keep you there for a while, but eventually it goes away and your bar goes back up. Unless you got hit with a substat disease (I heard my PA's MCM mentioning them) and your ability to recover your pool is wiped out.

You can wait out a poison, but you can't bounce back from disease at all.

Also, bear in mind that I have novice (plus one crafting) medic AND novice (plus one level music)entertainer, myself. I CAN wait out the disease somewhere more or less safe. Drop a camp and use lousy health and action woundpacks (but not substat packs)to heal back 10 points at a time... and/or play my entry-level instrument to get my mind back to a point where I feel safe travelling in search of a real healer. But doing exactly that will take me somewhere on the order of a half hour to pull off because I'm so very bad at it.

-V

Veldcath

Mon Apr 19, 2004 2:25 pm

#97

vortexala wrote:

Now we're getting somewhere

Hey... All good ideas come from loads of discussion and revisions... Creation can't be done in a vacuum.

I'm sure someone will disagree with the severe side-effects thing, but the real-world 'stop the diesease emergency kits' are supposedly very unpelasant to use... even if they do save your life. I see nothing wrong there.

-V

vortexala

Mon Apr 19, 2004 2:30 pm

#98

Veldcath wrote:

vortexala wrote:

Now we're getting somewhere

Hey... All good ideas come from loads of discussion and revisions... Creation can't be done in a vacuum.

-V

Just meant we were getting somewhere from my earlier misreads

~Texxie Xetrov~
Retired Mayor of Vesania, Corellia, Chilastra
Retired Combat Medic Correspondent(Feb 04 - Dec 04)

"A Day without sunlight is like.... night."
A CU Alpha Testers Disclaimer: This CU Alpha Test Contained neither Alpha nor Testing.
Play at your own risk, but don't blame us...

Veldcath

Mon Apr 19, 2004 2:49 pm

#99

And then, of course, I just now found out that there's a food out there that can give you (effecively) a few-hundred-point 'buff' to all bars for aboutseven to ten minutes. IFone can find a crate of it for sale.And since Disease can't take you below +1...

Too darned much stuff in this game. How are we supposed to know all our options?

I still think it might be worth looking into the idea of the 'disgusting, nasty cure-all' pill. If it were something CMs could make, it would be a revenue stream for them. Afairly lucrative one, especially if it takes good/rare ingredients to makeone that works fairly well.Lacks the grace and effectiveness of a Doctor's cure but gets the job done, more or less.

-V

jfang

Mon Apr 19, 2004 3:21 pm

#100

Three comments.

The first is that I like the idea which is shaping up. The final refinement, and the implementation can very possibly change my opinion of it, but the idea of being able to apply a tourniquet or some other extreme form of first aid stopgap when you don't have a doctor handy is a good one.

The second is, has anybody brought this idea to the attention to the other medic classes? (This would most appropriately be Vortexala, and most likely to the doctor and medic correspondents.) It seems that this would have serious repercussions to the doctor class, among others, and they might have some input and ideas as well.

The third is a few ideas of implementation, although I suspect it is probably premature to be talking about ideas:

1) In thinking about it, one of the few ways to stop a poison without curing it would be to drastically slow the metabolism of the user. So how about the "charcoal pills", or whatever they will be, stop poison at the cost of putting a hard cap of your secondaries at 50 (or less), even when buffed. Of course grogginess, or another downside is also viable. (When I say stop poison, I mean they stop the ticking AND the timer, so the poison will resume when the effect wears off.) In essence, you are slowing your metabolism such that the poison isn't spreading, but you are extremely lethargic. You might make a pack of 12, each dose lasting 5 or so minutes (long enough such that you wouldn't want to use it in active combat). This would solve the problem of "I need to travel to another planet to stop this disease, I don't want to die on the way", but would not solve the problem of being diseased stopping your hunt (which may or may not be realistic, or a "good thing").

2) Another possibility would be having a general use "cure-all" item being universally usable. What I mean by "cure-all" is that the item would purge the body of *all* foreign elements, including poisons, diseases, doctor buffs, foods, and drinks. (I would like to remove entertainer buffs as well, but that is a much harder case to make.) A doctor, who is much more versed in medicine, can identify which foreign elements are harmful and which are helpful, and use a specialized medicine to only purge the harmful items. However, Joe Rifleman, with no experience in medicine, will need to rely on a blanket cure to restore himself to health. The "master medic" version might let a person keep some buffs (such as doctor buffs, but not foods), as they can better, but not perfectly, identify the foreign bodies in a system.

vortexala

Tue Apr 20, 2004 12:34 am

#101

Alright, let me check my understanding here, since apparently I haven't been paying attention.

What should be introduced is something that will allow any player to, in one form or another,

heal and/or stop disease/poison.

This will have severeside effects.

It would still be better to have a Doctor cure you then to use this item.

This is a NON-Medical item.

Those points I agree with. It's implementation can be debated, of course, but that's what I'm getting. Correct?

Forgive me if I misread any of you, but I saw cure and may have ended up focusing on that solely as part of the recent surfacing of 'nerf doc' ideas that are popping up here and there. I may have misread the posts but, well, when y'read as many as I have to, you tend to skim sometimes.

Now then, if there were any other points you wanted to make, or any that i've missed, feel free to add them.

~Texxie Xetrov~
Retired Mayor of Vesania, Corellia, Chilastra
Retired Combat Medic Correspondent(Feb 04 - Dec 04)

"A Day without sunlight is like.... night."
A CU Alpha Testers Disclaimer: This CU Alpha Test Contained neither Alpha nor Testing.
Play at your own risk, but don't blame us...

Wookubus

Tue Apr 20, 2004 7:42 am

#102

do u see this crying over health or action poison.. nope... why, because u can heal it..now if u add that to mind then u take away all this nerf cry BS...

however, i do not think current stims should be upgraded to include mind heal.. .. nor should they be full ham heal stims either. reg stim b's are for novice meds..... it should be a seperate pack called mind stim and be craftable in the 2 box in cm crafting and requirenovice cm to use ...cause they already gave us a mind heal it just ravagese our mind whenwe do making it emergency use only..

all this antidote and vaccine foolishness will not happen nor should it....think bout it.. take a vaccine shot renedring a profs entire offensne utterly usless.. hmm ok,how bout CM's get a blaster proof vest and we take 0 dmg for a specified amounttime to counter the vaccine.... see how rediculous that is.. that is what you are asking for...

... this is not real life where u go get a flu shot and yer good to go.. people talkin about doctor house calls ans slowling metabolism ..**edit**.. come on.. lets try and remeber this is Starwars and not the sims onineor real life ........please and keep the suggestions somewhat plausable

.. easist fix is above.. u get the desired effect without nerfing and adding somethign new to the game ..

Message Edited by Wookubus on 04-20-2004 10:45 AM

Senobus

Master Combat Medic/ Master Riflemen

"You Have Sustained More Poison"

PadawanChong

Tue Apr 20, 2004 8:19 am

#103

Wookubus wrote:

all this antidote and vaccine foolishness will not happen nor should it....think bout it.. take a vaccine shot renedring a profs entire offensne utterly usless.. hmm ok,

Why not? You can buy armor that will render a pistoleer utterly worthless if you're buffed. If you doubt me, pick up your favorite pistol and come to Radiant... I'm a pistoleer, so I know.

============
GermainePropane on Virtue - City of Heroes. The best combat system in an MMO.
Lvl 43
============

Veldcath

Tue Apr 20, 2004 8:53 am

#104

Wookubus wrote:

do u see this crying over health or action poison.. nope... why, because u can heal it..now if u add that to mind then u take away all this nerf cry BS...

I'm not "crying" about poison at all. It's disease that upsets me. Poison is an annoyance, but not a bad one.

however, i do not think current stims should be upgraded to include mind heal.. .. nor should they be full ham heal stims either. reg stim b's are for novice meds..... it should be a seperate pack called mind stim and be craftable in the 2 box in cm crafting and requirenovice cm to use ...cause they already gave us a mind heal it just ravagese our mind whenwe do making it emergency use only..

You want to know the truth? Makes more sense for Squad Leaders to have it. They're all about keeping morale up on the battlefield. Isn't that what mind/BF is? Unless you want to make the case that you're flinging around happy-happy drugs, you dope pusher you...

all this antidote and vaccine foolishness will not happen nor should it....think bout it.. take a vaccine shot renedring a profs entire offensne utterly usless.. hmm ok,how bout CM's get a blaster proof vest and we take 0 dmg for a specified amounttime to counter the vaccine.... see how rediculous that is.. that is what you are asking for...

Actually, people suggesting the vaccine shot were mostly suggesting it as a buff to the resist rate or something that lessens impact. Not a "This totally protects me, nyah-nyah" shot. Armors and foods and doc buffs can help protect you against darned near any kind of damage... except poison. And people have shown that the current anti-poison food is nearly completely (if not totally) ineffective.

... this is not real life where u go get a flu shot and yer good to go.. people talkin about doctor house calls ans slowling metabolism ..**edit**.. come on.. lets try and remeber this is Starwars and not the sims onineor real life ........please and keep the suggestions somewhat plausable

Said before, saying again: Real life is all we have to compare to, unless you know some other sci-fi setting game with combat medic types we can use to look at for comparrison purposes. Talking about reality IS a way to lend plausibility to the discussion - here's how the real thing works, now let's extrapolate that to the setting we're talking about.

.. easist fix is above.. u get the desired effect without nerfing and adding somethign new to the game ..

Desired effect (at least as far as I'm concerned) is having some way (once you have already SURVIVED the battle) to survive your treck to finda doctor willing and able to take care of what's ailing you. You know... in case something or someone bad attacks you when you're off doign something and you don't HAVE a doctor near. That's where this discussion has gone in the last page or two. I don't see how giving mind-stims to CM's addresses THAT concern at all. Especially in response to some of the nasty diseases out there.

-V

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