Combat Medic Archive

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RhenGordon wrote:

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You're argument falls flat here. You are only taking one definition for the word support; www.dictionary.com has this:

Joey, Joey, Joey. What'll you do once Chandler go off the air. Anyway, these are definitions of SAME word. No matter which one you choose they mean the SAME thing(well okay there are some annoying words that have two totally difference meaning but this isn't one of them). I just picked the one that is most straight forward and easiest to understand. But lets go over your definitions shall we?

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1. To bear the weight of, especially from below.

Sure we bear the weight of making sure our PvP team does not die in combat whehter that be with heals or by destroying the enemy. We are support in this capacity and extremely good at it.

Right. Exactly. "To bear the weight of", and that of does not refer to the one that is doing the bearing the weight right? and you noticed the next sentence? "especially from below"? See rest of your PvP team is up there, doing what they do, and you are BELOW them, making sure they can do what they do. When you support, YOU support the PvP team that does the fight with as you mentioned HEALS. Now if you are out there with rest of the team destroying the enemy and NOT healing, you are not supporting, you are combating.

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1. To hold in position so as to keep from falling, sinking, or slipping.

We keep the battle from sinking, or slipping to the enemy, we keep our troops from falling on the field of battle with our heals

Hmm... what would be the operative word here? could it be "heal" as in "... with our heals"? yes I think so! and if you prevent your troops from falling on the field what would your troops do? hmm.. I think they would keep going wouldn't you say? as in "to keep (something) going"?

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1. To be capable of bearing; withstand: “His flaw'd heart... too weak the conflict to support” (Shakespeare).

We can withstand because we are effective so we are capable on the battle field.

No objection from me there. It isn't the CM's LACK of capability that bring up all these "lets nerf CM" threads.

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1. To keep from weakening or failing; strengthen: The letter supported him in his grief.

Past tense, we have supported many a winning and failing attempt on the battlefield.

And that is pretty much the entirety of argument. CM have SUPPORTED many winnings thru healing(support)? or thru Posion/Disease(Combat)? See the whole argument of definition is what is act of support and what is act of combat. Discussion of definition have boiled down to the difference between Support(as in HELP! MEDIC!) and combat support maneuver(as in Squad B suppresion fire, Squad A Charge!)

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1. To provide for or maintain, by supplying with money or necessities.

HEre is the rub, we rely on others for this, others have to provide for our maintenance and money or necessities.

okay that make sense. You though maybe you will be ONLY support? which does not require OTHER support? what is your complaint about the support needing support of others? why does it rub you the wrong way? Combat Unit should require your support yet you do not require support of anyone else?

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1. 
   
   To act in a secondary or subordinate role to (a leading performer).

This is actually what you all WANT us to be, this is the ONLY definition that fits your criteria, you want us to be a second class profession that you can walk on as easily as that poor Nuna outside Kadaara, in fact the Nuna might in reality give youa better challenge.

Ah, see here is the problem. You fixate on the word "secondary" and "subordinate" and you think that the definition "to keep (something) going" where CM not BEING the (something) lessens them. Well definition say what it say. It describe something. It doesn't attach a quality, rank or prestige to it. Is Doctors, Armorsmith, Weaponsmith "secondary" in combat? well yes they are. Are they any LESS important? are they second citizen? well thats just chip on YOUR shoulder.

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One thing you also have to understand, in military terms, the word support actually takes on additional meanings beyond what is discussed in the dictionary. The truth is that an M60 machine gun, a Mk19 Grenade launcher, or a .50 caliber machine gun are all crew served SUPPORT weapons. They provide support by helping the squad they are attached to survive attacks from units they are not specifically outfitted to fight. Case in point. A 50 caliber machinegun is to protect against light-skinned vehicles. The standard infantry company is not outfitted to handle an attack from that type of unit so 50 cals are issued to server with the Infantry Unit to SUPPORT them.

And this is where again we look at the difference between Support and Combat support maneuver. in military terms does NOT add additional meaning to the word support. The word support is used in describing combat maneuver as to point out the EFFECT that maneuver would have. In BOTH cases the effect of the word support means the same thing.

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This is where the combat medic fits. We are a zerg breaker, and an armor penetrator. Those players with 80% stun and 80% resist armor are still susceptable to the Combat Medic which means we SUPPORT our team by providing a service they are not specifically designed to counter themselves. In this role, the armored guys that I referred to actually support CMs. We are weak and cannot stand up to that type of player when the combat starts, that is why WE need SUPPORT to help keep us alive.

Support does not mean that all we do is provide medicine, supplies and an occasional heal on the battlefield, support is a much more broad word than that.

and this is really the whole point of CM discussion. And stay with me on this. This is the whole problem with SWG's CM discussion.

See, there is real life CM. They are support. They ONLY support. If I see a CM in my unit doing ANYTHING beside support I will personally see to it that he gets kicked out if not brought up on charges.

Then there is SWG CM. They are support, but they are NOT only support. They also can perform combat. Now I personally had LOT of problem accepting that in the beginning. I kept thinking hey CM is CM.

But no. SWG is NOT real life CM, like SWG Squad Leader is not like real life Squad Leader.

But see it goes BOTH way. You can't take the COMBAT action CM does and call it support because support actually DOES mean just provide medicine, supplies and an occasional heal on the battlefield.

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IlyaMasool: if we aren't combat-orientated, why do we have 2 times+ the schmetics for poisons and disease then we have heals in the combat medic tree? Does that not say what the dev's vision for us is clearly enough even ray charles could see their intent for us???

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IlyaMasool wrote:

Something, go back up a couple posts and you can read what he said

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The point of my post, ye who failed to catch it, was that there is more than one way to support someone. The point was actually made by you, you actually could not have made my point better.

"And this is where again we look at the difference between Support and Combat support maneuver. in military terms does NOT add additional meaning to the word support. The word support is used in describing combat maneuver as to point out the EFFECT that maneuver would have. In BOTH cases the effect of the word support means the same thing".

Here it is ready?

We provide COMBAT support. That is why we have the word COMBAT in the title of medic. If you want to focus on the medic part, then fine you go ahead and focus on that half of the title, I am here to defend the whole title.

We are essentially a hybrid profession. If you ever played EQ we would be like the Paladin or the Shadowknight. We provide some combat, not great but some, we provide SOME healing, again not great but some. We are VERY effective in our element, that element is in the SUPPORT role, either through strength of arms or through heals.

If America sends 2000 troops into Fallujah to SUPPORT the Iraqi forces there, I am sure that they are not there to ONLY heal the troops when they get wounded. They will do that, but they will also support them in a combat sense as they are needed. We are not saying that aircraft only support troops by spraying healing compounds over their heads are we? Yet they are clearly defined as air-SUPPORT.

So take your definition above. The effect of us throwing poisons and diseases on the battlefield is toprovide asupport maneuver (that sounds a little odd to me, but I will let you say it).

PVP is all about throwing and curing as many medical DOTs as possible, whichever side does this best wins excluding pretty much a **edit**ing miracle on one side of the field. This is bad for the game.

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Morganite wrote:
IlyaMasool: if we aren't combat-orientated, why do we have 2 times+ the schmetics for poisons and disease then we have heals in the combat medic tree? Does that not say what the dev's vision for us is clearly enough even ray charles could see their intent for us???

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Well I didn't say CM aren't combat-oriented. Not since about 5 months ago.

I've played Doc/CM since launch like whole lot of yous, and way back in July I was on mega anti-CM campaign since I believed CM was healer, and ONLY healer. But oh well this isn't DAoC or AO and CM isn't real life CM, so I came to term with it. (k it took about 7 months but hey never said I was not stubborn)

Now see the WHOLE problem as I see it with CM right now is that we use words that can so easily confused, like "support", "combat medic" and "combat-oriented".

Right there when you said above that CM are combat-oriented. I am assuming that you mean CM belong in Combat, which I agree with. I take it to mean that CM shine in combat, like doctors shine in combat.

But then maybe you meant CM are COMBAT oriented, as in CM like nothing better than to pick-up-a-flamethrower-and-go-wild COMBAT oriented. And I would say no.

You see tons of poison/disease schemetic and see clear as day that Dev meant for CM to be a combat profession. I see that CM only need to take marksman support line as in you can use any of the weapon to gain the combat experience and have a taste of it, but you don't have to keep any combat weapon skills. I figured they would let us gain combat xp by healing soon or later so we can become CM without ever picking up a weapon, which further comfirmed that CM was not a rambo with healing as side gig.

To me, any profession where you can create a character and can master without ever picking up a weapon is not a combat profession.

but see, thats ME. and I wouldn't say thats how Dev see it.

You guys won't let this die?! We need CM to answer other threads let this thread die for God sake. Leave it to the whinners. Also yous* ppl aren't playing any other game but SWG so stop flaming other game stats it's stupid and wate of reading time. Talk about SWG!

Message Edited by Bogoa on 05-07-2004 11:16 AM

Message Edited by Bogoa on 05-07-2004 11:19 AM

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IlyaMasool wrote:

You see tons of poison/disease schemetic and see clear as day that Dev meant for CM to be a combat profession. I see that CM only need to take marksman support line as in you can use any of the weapon to gain the combat experience and have a taste of it, but you don't have to keep any combat weapon skills. I figured they would let us gain combat xp by healing soon or later so we can become CM without ever picking up a weapon, which further comfirmed that CM was not a rambo with healing as side gig.

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Actually we used to get combat XP for combat healing and poisoning. But since CM doesn't have a Combat XP tree this only helped us powerlevel other professions. I gained two levels of Carbineer in just three or four days by poison kitingFaambaas.

Now, if the Combat Medic Ranged Support tree had required Combat XP and we had been given Combat XP would this matter be settled then?

My theory is that an elite combat prof should almost never lose to amaster support template because its only support not combat.

If said support prof took up some of an elite class than they should be equal in battle.

And a master elite/support should almost never lose to just elite combat prof.

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Mild-Breeze-Trooper wrote:

Actually we used to get combat XP for combat healing and poisoning. But since CM doesn't have a Combat XP tree this only helped us powerlevel other professions. I gained two levels of Carbineer in just three or four days by poison kitingFaambaas.

Now, if the Combat Medic Ranged Support tree had required Combat XP and we had been given Combat XP would this matter be settled then?

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Yup. as of Publish 6. Can't be CM without picking up a weapon.

That is not ANYMORE. (sorry, had to point that out cause I'm THAT petty. never claimed I wasn't)

Anyhoo, that was around time when I started grudgingly had to start thinking maybe CM wasn't 100% healer.

I still don't think CM is full combat profession and probably never will, but that is just my personal opinion.( and therefore right opinion).

I would be happy if upcoming combat balance shift CM toward that direction, but I wouldn't lose any sleep over it if they don't.

And yup, it sure would have made it much harder for me to keep on thinking CM as pure healer profession if Combat Medic Ranged Support line had Combat XP requirement but it never did.

It's a iffy thing. it just don't make sense to have a profession that can heal really good, and can still does comparable damage. I mean if one profession can do good damage and heal good, why would anyone want to play any other profession?

The way I see it, if YOU had to make a group to go after a group of 20 CM/Riflemen, what kind of group would you make?

Same problem with 20 Doc/TKA once mind damage/wound can be healed during combat.

It have been pointed out many many times before that the problem isn't CM really, and it isn't even the mind damage. It is the way skill point works where you can have good healer and decent fighter combo.

Sure they could have made it so that Master Doc need 230 pts. and Master CM also need 230 pts. But then that would defeat the whole purpose of skill based MMOG instead of class based MMOG. (I just want to remind the Dev that two of the most successful MMOG EQ and DAoC both had class based game. I am not saying that is the way to go, I just want to say that these two game made LOT of money. All the developers are married to supermodels, drive porche and have beach front house. Every single one of them. Just something to think about

Stun greatly reduces the effect of passive defense mods (ranged and melee defense). Extremely useful vs. melee stackers or when out of ideal range. Dizzy makes KD slightly more annoying. Intim cuts damage output in half.

And besides, just because you would suck without poison, that does not mean you (we actually, since I too am a CM) should have the ability to freely run around dominating all PvP.