Combat Medic Archive

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da-bro wrote:
Come to think of it, a large part of what is making up this huge effect of thyroid rupture is that Lightsaber speed is bugged and really needs fixing.

My alt character has a Pistol and the modified speed is 1.44. My Jedi characters Lightsaber is 1.3 modified speed, but actually loops Saber Hit almost twice as slow as my normal character loops Ranged Shot. As has been discovered and it would seem forgotten, is that Lightsabers, because of this speed bug, are attacking at their base speed, whihc is around the 2.2 second mark. Thats a loss of almost 1 second per swing, which is a huge speed loss. Thyroid Rupture just takes this issue and aplifies it to astronomical levels.

I'd reserve any further comments/issues with speed debuff attacks until the Lightsaber speed issue has been rectified. My gut tells me that the main contributor to this issue is the bugged Lightsaber speed and not the effect of the speed debuff attacks.

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Read the post right above yours. I did some testing of the situation under two different conditions against a Jedi using Saber Hit set on auto attack.

Regardless of what you feel is "astronomical" Thryoid Rupture causes only a 26.4% difference in attack speed.

Tell me if you have any disagrements with the data.

It is AMAZING what ACTUAL testing will do to bring light to a situation clouded by uncertainty.

Here you go. A few players felt uncomfortable with the 60 second test period, so I did some data analysis to determine how far my data would wander from a test that would last 10 minutes long.

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hamhamthe3rd wrote:

as you said before, you only tested for so long and the method used is only so perfect. you didnt start at 0 and go to 60 in each trial, in fact the elapsed time is different between all your tests. i think the percent of error is what gave you those 2 extra attacks you saw not the addition of force speed.

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You are incorrect about this. The 60 second interval started at the first attack. If there was no attack that occured during the last 4 seconds of the interval, it wasn't recorded because it did not occur.

Look at this picture. The brackets will indicate the boundaries of the interval, and "l" shapes will indicate the attacks. The "." will indicate periods of time in between. This is how I took the data:

[l.....l......l.......l.....l......l.....l.....l......l......l......l.....l...]..l.....l

Notice that only 12 attacks fell in the 60 second interval.

Yes, there is room for error, but let me argue that the 60 second time interval was sufficient to get a reliable number. The above graph shows that the attacks are about 4.7 seconds apart. If, indeed, the actual interval was that and I increased the testing interval to 10 minutes, you would see the attacks per second go from 12/60 = .2 to about 128/600 = .213. This is a difference of 100% - .2/.213 = 100% - .94 = 6%.

So basically, the difference that you would see in a 10 minute test would be + or - 6% of what I reported. Keep in mind that this is a broad way of calculating the error that could occur, but it is sufficient. We could, just for safety's sake increase the error percentage by about 10%. This would vary the final result between 23.8% and 29%, and I'm being VERY generous. With the 6% error, the result would be between 24.8% and 28%.

In addition, the 26.4% attack speed decrease from the -40 attack speed debuff was achieved through an average of the results from the two tests. Also, in addition, I ran two, previous tests over only a 40 second interval, and the results were slightly above the 26.4% number. If I remember, the average of those two results was 27.5%, but you can see that a 60 second interval has a greater probability of being more accurate.

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Spookibus wrote:

Thyroid rupture is an attack. It takes time and pool points to land, and you have to be up close. The buffs can be applied anywhere at any time.

Don't nerf a useful ability because one of your own was being abused.

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DustusNavar wrote:

Doctor speed buff: nerfed in publish 21

Jedi speed buff: nerfed in publish 21

Stacking Jedi and Doctor speed buffs: nerfed in publish 21

Combat Medic speed debuff: unchanged

I'm pointing this out not only as a jedi player, but asmy alter-egoBH/CM player, too. I think it sucks that all the + speed buff are getting nerfed, but that being the case then the only balacing thing to do with thyroid rupture is to reduce its effects as well. Not a popular thing to say, but given the other changes it only makes sense.

I suppose this is where the flames begin.

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Message Edited by Chillwillzx on 08-18-2005 08:58 PM

PUFF THE MAGIC WOOKIE
                                             OLLIFANT THE ITHORIAN
                                                                                           -PUFF- THE RODIAN 

AAARGGGHHH IT'S DELAYED, NOW I HAVE TO KEEP KILLING YOU NUBS

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Chillwillzx wrote:
Both of them affect combat speed so refering to that article is pretty pointless. I am not going into a discussion on how overpowering speed buffs are but if one deserves a nerf so does the other.

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Not every combat class contributes to a fight by raw damage output. Preservation of their unique way of contributing to a fight must take precedence. In other words, the approximate 26.4% decrease a profession causes in an enemy needs to be maintained.

Please take a look at some tests I ran along with a section of data analysis and viable counters to the move. Enjoy.

ADDRESSING COUNTERS

Some players feel that there is no effective way to counter the approximate 26.4% change in thier attack rate, but this is not actually the case. Addressing the concerns of Jedi, only Jedi-available counters will be included. There are many ways to counter the speed debuff.

The first is Armor Break. Armor Break causes a 65% decrease in the armor rating of a target. Applied to a target with 7000 resist energy armor, their armor rating will drop to 2450. According to Armorsmith Forum values (http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=armorsmith&message.id=91857), the actual change in protection between these armor values is 27.5%, which means that a Jedi will do about 27.5% more damage to their target. This 27.5% already cancels out the combat speed debuff, and Armor Break can be constantly applied throughout an entire fight.

Players retort by discussing the 75% chance of Armor Break mitigation slice. Players misconcieve that this is NOT a 75% decrease in the effects of Armor Break, but it is a 75% CHANCE that the effects of Armor Break is mitigated. The degree of this mitigation is really unknown at this point, but if it is assumed to actually decrease the overall effectiveness of Armor Break by 75%, then Jedi who apply Armor Break on targets will see a 7.1% increase in their damage output, when the mitigation takes effect. Because it is a 75% chance that AB is mitigated, the overall damage increase done to the target will be .25 X 27.5% + .75 X 7.1% = 12.2%.

Comparing the 26.4% decrease in a Jedi's attack speed with the meager 12.2% increase in damage on the target will result in an over decrease in a Jedi's damage rate by 14.2%. So far, it looks like Jedi have no effective counters that are available, but the effects of Force, Doctor, or Food combat speed buffs has not even been taken into effect.

While many would take on face value that a Doctor combat speed buff or a Force Speed Debuff would more than overwhelm a 14.2% change. From here, proving this is rather uncredible, but a general idea can be taken if one assumes that a -40 combat speed debuff would have the same, but opposite, effect as a +40 combat speed buff. If this were the case, one can do some rough figuring. If a 40 combat speed change produces a 27% attack speed change, and a +10 combat speed change produces a 10% change (this was determined by comparing Test 1.b) and Test 2.b) above), then the probable increase derived from a +20 combat speed change woulddo somewhere in the ballpark of 18% of a change in a player's attack speed.

What this shows us roughly, is that if a Jedi with a Force Speed 2 buff and the Armor Break skill fought a player with 7000 energy resist armor who possessed the skill to do a -40 combat speed debuff, then at the end of the day, the Jedi would STILL be doing 18% - 14.2% = about 3.8% MORE damage to the targeted player than if none of the players were using any Armor Breaks, Force Speed, or combat speed debuffs.

In conclusion, if a Jedi takes the time to get a Force Speed or Doctor Buff and applies Armor Break on a target, then that Jedi will ALWAYS be capable of delivering more than their default damage.

Also, in closing, the number "26.4%" is an approximation. It is a GOOD idea of the actual effects of the -40 combat speed debuff, and even if longer tests were run, the result would not likely vary between 24.8% and 28%. Please take the time to understand some of the arguments made here, and I encourage others to do testing of their own. I do have screenshots of the combat log timestamps if anyone is interested.

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Chillwillzx wrote:
Both of them affect combat speed so refering to that article is pretty pointless. I am not going into a discussion on how overpowering speed buffs are but if one deserves a nerf so does the other.

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Message Edited by eapers on 08-18-2005 07:20 PM

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Chillwillzx wrote:
A cm with doc buffs on him that also applies thyroid rupture to another player has in essence a 65 point combat haste advantage over the other player. If the other player has doc buffs himself its only a 40 point advantage but its pretty clear to me that this advantage is just as bad as stacking of doc buffs with improved force speed or mushrooms where before they nerf. Doc's speed buffs and cm's debuff were made the same strenght because they were meant as counters to eachother. Hence if one is nerfed the other should too. There is big enough a shortage of docs allready atleast make the two classes more or less equal.

Message Edited by Chillwillzx on 08-18-2005 08:58 PM

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