Combat Medic Archive
Thread: About the 75% PvP Nerf Rumour in Pub9...
Morath360
Sat Jul 03, 2004 7:42 am
#79
The issue is not simply that the mind pool is unhealable. There is an issue with just throwing a powerful poison that lasts forever and a disease that never stops. There needs to be a time limit on it.
Brainplay
Sat Jul 03, 2004 7:56 am
#80
Morath360 wrote:
The issue is not simply that the mind pool is unhealable. There is an issue with just throwing a powerful poison that lasts forever and a disease that never stops. There needs to be a time limit on it.
No the issue is throwing a WEAK poison on a very small pool even after being full buffed. Ever notice why that little blue bar is never as big as your red and green bars even after a dancer buff?
Well unless your a human and have TK/powerboost
Morath360
Sat Jul 03, 2004 8:04 am
#81
My blue is as large as the others. I have a 3rd character that mind buffs dance and Music. Add to that brandy and canape. The issue is the length of time these poisons keep right on going..
Mind 1000 +1000 dance+ 2 brandies 800 = 2800
Health 600 + 2400 = 3000
My mind is normally very close to my health.. add muon and its higher.. This is my zabrak character..
Message Edited by Morath360 on 07-03-2004 08:07 AM
Loonytic
Sat Jul 03, 2004 8:14 am
#82
Morath360 wrote:
The issue is not simply that the mind pool is unhealable. There is an issue with just throwing a powerful poison that lasts forever and a disease that never stops. There needs to be a time limit on it.
there are time limits on poisons and disease... check out the duration stat on them
PanzerGR
Sat Jul 03, 2004 12:42 pm
#83
as ive said before its as simpel as this
if there was no redeemable problem, then so many peopel would not have complained for so long.....and STILL be complaining. Logic dictates and history shows that people usually quit complaining over things once problems are fixed...or soem other way is managed to bypass situations and give appeasement.
THis is nto the case with CM's......so obviously theres a problem. To say there is no problem is just being vain. Sorry but there it is.
a couple of people have said lately...and i guess throughout the entire struggle...is that DoTs are so low DPS.
heres the heart of the matter.....in my opinion.
Yes, they are low DPS, specially for PvE. However, PvP is a whole 'nother ballgame and i think many CM's fail to realize, or just let their arrogance and vanity cloud the issue.
I am not a CM, though i have had medic. Ive debated this with guild CM's asked lots of questions and talked at length with 2 correspondants who had guild ties to me over these issues. I consider myself pretty informed.
CM's can stack their DoTs..problem #1. DoTs ignore all mitigations and resistances, problem #2. Doctors do not have an area cure, problem #3 It's not just CM's (altho they are obviously the prime candidate for such discussions) but all DoTs in general.
Ill take what i conside rmy most powerful weapon..my scythe. It has AP2 and a max damage of over 510, speed is low enough i think i can coem out with an attack eery 1.5-2 seconds...ill go with a low figure and say 1.5
so every 1.5 second sim doing 510 base damage plus whatever modifier i get from my atatck. However, i have to take into account the fact that ALL OF THESE reduce my damage:
Armor
Buffs
Mitigation
Food
Defense
Toughness
75% PvP reduction
I have dueled UNARMORED Teras Kasi and hit them for 15-60 damage on average 60 being a high end number witht he occassional 100 or so hit.
Now take a CM. They can stack poisons on the same pool, so I am told by every CM i talk to. After parousing a few emd shops and gettign an average for poison damages today i foudn that after stacking poisons a CM could get up to 500-800 damage pretty easily. And thats not even accounting for a disease stack on top of the poison.
Now, I grant, that poison ticks slow. But it is UNMITIGATED damage...unreduced in every way. If i could tick sum1 for even HALF of what a CM ticks in combat with my scythe i would die a happy, happy man. And thats a fact. Against a buffed individualwith proper protection, mundane weapons will almost ALWAYS do less damage than an unmitigated atatck, no mater what the DPS is.
Weapon DPS is SIGNIFICANTLY reduced by the facets of combat reductions......DoTs have NOTHING of that to face.
Now i grant 1 on 1 a CM will most liekly die against an opponent if they cant run away and get away...if their opponent stays up long enough to do the damage necessaryt o bring them down. But, even if he does defeat the CM, he is effectively taken out of combat if he cant heal the DoT because he will have no mind with which to perform actions.
In a large scale battle CM's can affect entire groups.
im not trying to go into all aspects of combat and CM's tho. What i AM trying to poin out to all the ignorants who continualyl whine abotu DPS is that....whiel it may tick slow..its completely unmitigated and i dont think theres many players swinging axes, shooting blasters, or throwing fists that wouldn give their left nut to have a completely unmitigated atatck the same way CM's get it. Ive seen my mind tick for 500 in one fell swoop every 20 seconds before....ive seen myself tick faster than that. Heck ive seen uber poisons that took peopel down in 1 tick or 2......anyone who thinks the damage on a CM DoT is inadequate needs to re-examine their thinking.
LuciferMullins
Sat Jul 03, 2004 2:59 pm
#84
Well lets take a look at the poison thing today alone. If you have a chemical or biological agent in the battlefield, you equip gear to protect yourself from it. One would think that a full suit of composite armor would filter air/contact poisons out. Someone in a different type of armor (i.e. not a full enviromental suit) would still be pooched.
Also on today's battlefields soldiers in "chemical" zones are issued multipleone shot needles to combat the effect of an agent. You should take damage from using it, as you have to jab it in pretty good, but it will negate the poison.
Two pence offered.
Happymob wrote:
Bennyboy4308 wrote:
You honestly think combat MEDICs should be the most powerful profession in the game???
In group combat, I do believe that combat medics should be one of 3 extremely powerful professions - those being commando, squad leader, and combat medic. Squad leader is almost the definition of a support character. Commando is a bit odd as they are more of a regular combat/support hybrid (or at least would be if their grenades were usable).I am ok calling combat medic "support".
But people seem to think that "support" means offensively gimped. Support in military terms really means that you are a force multiplier. You may not be great individually, but you make the entire team much better. The group is much greater than the sum of the individuals. A regiment of infantry is good. A regiment of infantry with artillery "support" is very good. A regiment of infantry with artillery and air "support" is truly excellent and will wipe the battlefield of an enemy that just has infantry even in superior numbers. Yet air and artillery are not all that useful all by themselves.
Where the devs have screwed up, in my opinion, is not giving squad leaders enough skills, not giving commandos useful grenades, and making combat medics too deadly. I have no real problem with CMs doing lots of damage, but wish they would deal less death (via poison/disease stacks). Of course even if poison/disease couldn't kill, you would still have complaints as the CM/rifle combos would still kill (though the kill would be from the rifle skills and not the CM skills). This is the nature of the skill system, and I don't see anyway around this.
So I guess to answer your question, no, combat medics should not be the most powerful profession in the game. But in large action PvP, they should be tied for first (excluding jedi from the conversation). What makes you think they shouldn't be?
PanzerGR
Sun Jul 04, 2004 12:19 am
#85
i usually use mindhit3 with my scythe for any1 who doubts how much damage i do to some of these guys i think i may have some SS's somewhere. But yes, i have been apalled at how little damage i do to TKM's especially .
But its not justTKM's, i just used that as an example of just how much reductiont here is in combat. its simply a matter of pointig out just how many barriers combatants have.....whereas CM's have absolutely zero.
75% PvP 70% armor (average) mitigations foods your talking a huge percentage of an attack being wiped off the slate.
We'll see how much changes during the combat revamp but its still going to have problems i think.
Here's another point. I get tired of peopel saying "if you dotn liek CM's, take doctor to cure". The point is peopel shouldnt have to have a elite proff just to counteract another. Doctors also have no offensive capability on their own, so the argument falls short on that ground too.
Every combat proffession has at least some ability, even if a meek one, to counteract every other combat profession and do damage. Every single one. Even broken ones liek Carbineer still follow this sytem.
Every combat proff has defenses, and specials for offense. Therefore every proffession has both defensive and offensive capabilities allowing them to combat one another. Pretty straightforward. Obviously theres system imbalances, but in theory thats hwo it goes.
CM's lie completely outside this rhetoric. CM "attacks" (and other DoTs as well..excluding bleeds) can only be counteracted by doctors. No other profession has the ability to cleanse themselves of CM attacks. CM's therefore break the rules of the game and are privelaged to eb the only class with an attack that is both unresisted, AND lying outside the balance of the other combat oprofessions.
THATS why so many people are upset over CM's and, i believe, DoTs in general. They lay outside the rules and boundaries that have been established for every other combat class int he game. You can not be a pure melee/ranged and come out ahead with a CM. Even if you kill the CM you still lose because you cant cure yourself. You cant be ranged/melee against a CM because you have no defenses against the poisons. It is, pure fact, that if you do not have doctor you cant combat CM's. In larger battles it might be a little more even cause there will e doctors around to heal you, but even then CM's can area poison and tip the odds again.
I used to be able to go alone into Bestine and kill numerous peopel before dying. I could do this simply due to skill ability and, mostly, experience. This was before uber armor, uber loot, etc. I couldnt even dream of that now. Why? because i know eventually after about 5 minutes id run into some guy, who even if he had no experience,is a CM and because i cant heal myself even if i killed him i would be out of action due to the poisons and disease. SO even if i win, i lose.
go figure.
PanzerGR
Sun Jul 04, 2004 12:22 am
#86
and again im not trying to throw that out and say i should be able to go around at whim and just beat every1 by myself. I should be abel to beat any1 who im more experienced and better at, sure. What im driving at is CM's lay outside the rules every other combatant faces and unless you are a doctor you suffer from not being able to heal.
Occassionally a ranged user can best a CM by keeping him out of range or KDing him at range and laying in.....especially riflemen. But that still leaves melee users up a creek and ranged users still have a hard time of it.
Brainplay
Sun Jul 04, 2004 3:33 am
#87
PanzerGR wrote:
if they added Gas filtration to Composite and Ubese headgear (since these are enclosed helmets with filter systems) with say soemthing liek a 30-50% poison reduction Why armor? A food already exists but needs an upgrade. Stop thinking about how you can get to god mode with armor. Its on the nerf list already.
or gave poison the same reduction all other PvP combat gets Even in PvP vs. good armor no poison can match 150 damage every second. Now are you strictly comparing TK vs. 80% composite or everyone else vs. the 90% that "everyone" has.
then thats end of story and no one would complain. No I'd still own you with headshots since they do MIND damage. TK's would still own you with headhit 1, fencer would still own you because of scatter shot, all of which do MIND damage. Thats the problem. Or are you saying people die on a regular basis to combat medic HEALTH poisons?
The problem is that CM's suffe rno offensive penalties for their atatcks and thefore basically lay outside the rules all other proffs must face. In real life theres tons of ways to prevent chem and bio- agents int his game it's like CM's and DoTs are the end all of PvP In real life 1 shot kills or seriously injures you and a melee skill is a last ditch ability in a SHOOTING war. Wait, this isn't real life, its SWG. Now explain to me twi'leks and real life comparisons. The other funny thing is that I haven't seen a CM post "get doc in your template" in a long long time. But then people like you are the ones who will make sure that Doctor and only Doctor are the ones who will be able to cure poisons. Hell I posted in the squad leader forums that they should get a poison MITIGATION ability and got flamed for it saying it was too close to "stealing" a doctor ability. Whats up with this doctor obsession?
maybe the combat revamp will change it......but i still see no reason why CM's shouldnt ollow the same prinicples everyone else does...i realize theres a coding issue, but thats the devs fault fo rbungling it int he first place..im sure if they actually worked on it they could remedy it. Maybe thats the real reason they keep saying "its fine the way it is" because they dont want to admit they were wrong and have to re-code the medic code pyramid. Maybe they're going to revamp the MIND pool to be equal to HEALTH and ACTION. Omg, no more easy MIND damage templates to own PvP! Now its going to be who can KD/dizzy who first= "the win". Then again recoding the entire medic profession then combat medic profession would be ALOT of work so I wouldn't put it past them for not wanting to do it. I still wonder why we get MEDIC in our title when there is such little need for healing except in a very select few places. I really hope the revamp changes that.
Felrom
Sun Jul 04, 2004 9:34 am
#88
^^ Don't give SL's jack until removing a state or enhancing an attirbute tef's them like everyone else. The last thing we need to "fix" the CM problem is covert SL's removing poisons from their overt groupies while being unable to be hurt.
PanzerGR
Mon Jul 05, 2004 12:06 am
#90
Brainplay wrote:
PanzerGR wrote:
if they added Gas filtration to Composite and Ubese headgear (since these are enclosed helmets with filter systems) with say soemthing liek a 30-50% poison reduction Why armor? A food already exists but needs an upgrade. Stop thinking about how you can get to god mode with armor. Its on the nerf list already.
Because foods are overpowered as well. In fact they should remove soem of the properties foods have, like reduction of damage on synthsteak and poison resistance because it just doubles up on previous reductions.....which is 1 reason combat is so gimped.....you cna have 50 milliond ifferent things which reduce damage.
or gave poison the same reduction all other PvP combat gets Even in PvP vs. good armor no poison can match 150 damage every second. Now are you strictly comparing TK vs. 80% composite or everyone else vs. the 90% that "everyone" has.
I dont know where you get this from because poisons from my experience always outdamage combat ready PvPers. A guy with armor, buffs, food, etc and ready to go will always.ALWAYS take more damage from poison than he will from mundane weapons. Argue all you want with me. I fear CM's on the fuield more thna I ever will a rifleman. 39% stun armor and a PSG protects me even from Jawa's. Not so with poison. Guildie was dueling last nigth and i watched his mind tick every 10 seconds for 600 damage ina go. That wasnt even with a disease DoT stacked on. No weapon i know of can cut thru armor, psg, buffs, and other resistances for 600 damage in 10 seconds.....not if the opponent is buffed n ready.
Also you are forgettign one of the BIGGEST thing sin PvP my friend. Your poisons tick for full-force every tick.....so the mind is dropping a HEAVY BUNCH every tiem the poison ticks. In combat, a guy gets hit and his pools go down a little bit.....the stats on a buffed guy can easily regenerate a 30 tick or even a 80 tick damage. Its MUCH harder to fully regenerate a 600 tick that hits all at once. duh
then thats end of story and no one would complain. No I'd still own you with headshots since they do MIND damage. TK's would still own you with headhit 1, fencer would still own you because of scatter shot, all of which do MIND damage. Thats the problem. Or are you saying people die on a regular basis to combat medic HEALTH poisons?
No i wouldnt complain my complaint if you even bothered to pay attention is that CM's lay outside the rules every other combat profession faces.....it has NOTHING to do with mind damage whatsoever. As you pointed out other classes can do mind damage. No. The problem is that CM's and DoTs lie outside the rules established for everything else
As i also stated theres a certain balance (theoretically to the system). Every combat profession ahs a somewhat, more or less, chance of balancing and counteracting every other profession. Every class has defense and offense capabilities, which in theory, provide every class witht he ability to best the other. Granted its imbalanced and needing repair.
Combat Medics do NOT follow this principle at all. In order to "counteract" a CM you MUST have doctor. The rules are broken.
The problem is that CM's suffe rno offensive penalties for their atatcks and thefore basically lay outside the rules all other proffs must face. In real life theres tons of ways to prevent chem and bio- agents int his game it's like CM's and DoTs are the end all of PvP In real life 1 shot kills or seriously injures you and a melee skill is a last ditch ability in a SHOOTING war. Wait, this isn't real life, its SWG. Now explain to me twi'leks and real life comparisons. The other funny thing is that I haven't seen a CM post "get doc in your template" in a long long time. But then people like you are the ones who will make sure that Doctor and only Doctor are the ones who will be able to cure poisons. Hell I posted in the squad leader forums that they should get a poison MITIGATION ability and got flamed for it saying it was too close to "stealing" a doctor ability. Whats up with this doctor obsession?
Its eben proposed doctors egt an area cure...its been proposed CM's get a poison cure.....its been proposed Squad Leaders get a poison resitance. TO my knowledge all of these have been shot down by the devs who want to keep the cures with doctor.
maybe the combat revamp will change it......but i still see no reason why CM's shouldnt ollow the same prinicples everyone else does...i realize theres a coding issue, but thats the devs fault fo rbungling it int he first place..im sure if they actually worked on it they could remedy it. Maybe thats the real reason they keep saying "its fine the way it is" because they dont want to admit they were wrong and have to re-code the medic code pyramid. Maybe they're going to revamp the MIND pool to be equal to HEALTH and ACTION. Omg, no more easy MIND damage templates to own PvP! Now its going to be who can KD/dizzy who first= "the win". Then again recoding the entire medic profession then combat medic profession would be ALOT of work so I wouldn't put it past them for not wanting to do it. I still wonder why we get MEDIC in our title when there is such little need for healing except in a very select few places. I really hope the revamp changes that.
One of 2 things need to happen... either CM's need to be brought into line with all the other combat classes and follow the same rules and principles; reductions, mitigations, etc(Combat medics always seem to want to consider themself a COMBAT class, not a HEALING class.....so if they wanan act liek it force them to obey by it......its also amusing that this "combat" class requires literally zero combat experience.)
or there needs to be put into place more ways to cure resist and heal poisons
there is no "armor" for poison. There is no "poison defence" liek ppl have melee and ranged defence. There is no Area Poison Cure.....
one or the othe rneeds to change and thus far all ive seen fromt he CM community is a lot of aggravation that peopel are crying "nerf" on them and a total lack of attempting to understand why and come upw ith solutions.
Mild-Breeze-Trooper
Mon Jul 05, 2004 2:23 am
#91
PanzerGR do the math...
75% reduction that you call for with such a religious zealis too much.
It can't be done.
That is not to say that perhaps a slight reduction might be in place when the combat balance has been completed, but we won't know untill then.
It is also not to say that there needs to be more ways of counteracting poisons. More functionall resists. Perhaps some form of mitigation. A rebalanceing of the HAM bar so that mind isn't an issue.
But as long as you root for the 75% reduction you will only come out as a nerfherder trying to wreck a profession you don't have yourself because your defense stacking godmode got busted. I don't say you are... but you sure look like you do.