Combat Medic Archive
Thread: About the 75% PvP Nerf Rumour in Pub9...
Pahdbacca wrote:
LOL, maybe the Doc should be in a pre-determined spot and the combatants should come to her/him.
In my experience, Curing disease is not as urgent with a 40 second tic
Before the battle, have a plan to designate one or 2 players to keep a CM occupied if they are going to stack all of these items. If I come across a CM that has a combat profession as their other profession...chances are they cannot cure their own poison/disease states...give them a dose of their own medicine. If they are a Doc/CM...pull out a rifleman. They will go down quick enough. Trust me , 8 ranged defence don't go far
That is a good point about having a doctor stand in one spot. It is just as easy to have our docs also fight, and state where they are when there is a need for cures. Designating players to be pure doctors with only the task of healing/curing is something that only occurs on large base raids in my practice. On 5-10 man groups,the docs are fighting too.
While such a setup makes it harder to heal/cure, it shoudn't be so much of a problem.
On your point of designating players to take CM's down. It becomes my team's target as a whole when a CM is identified.
vortexala wrote:
Just because I'm a corre, doesn't mean I won't speak my mind
hehe, why does this sound like the problem I'm having?
if I was paid by SOE, maybe I'll go bury my mind for the cash... otherwise, since we're paying just like everyone else, I don't understand why people assume we shouldn't have opinions. *shrug*
maybe I can talk Texxie into buying me a drink while we all wait for the combat balance
Ternque01 wrote:
jfang, my current focus is discussing the inadequacies of doctors to heal in combat situations. While you feel it has been beaten to death, I feel that there are issues that aren't being considered and needanalysis. My point is that even given a 25% doctor ratio, thousands of mind damage occurs in current PvP unavoidably and incurably.
I'm sorry you feel that my purpose here is to troll. I am only trying to challenge the perception that doctors aretruly effective counters to CM attacks, and I feel that it's unfair to the player base to accept that they are at thispoint in time. At the same time it's a little silly that you call a moderator in here to end the discussion when I was kinda looking forward to some figures you could present. *shrug*
If you feel that Doctors are not capable of curing CM DoTs, you have 2 options
- You can post issues in the CM forum asking that their abilities be reduced without giving them anything in return, or...
- You can post in the Doctor forum and lobby for them to have better abilities to cure CM DoTs
I am going to go check and see how many posts you have in the Doctor forums......Sorry, your search yielded no matching results.
It also seems to me that you are complaining because Doctors can't counter CMs....but then you concide that your doctors are busy trying to heal while they are fighting....That doesn't fly. If they are there to heal....they are there to heal. It's not a CMs fault that your docors can't cure because healsdon't go off until after your special combat moves already lined up have cleared out, or that attacking slows heals down.
If a Doctor is in the battle to do a Doctor's job, maybe you problems with enemy CMs will seem a little less.
Pahdbacca wrote:
If you feel that Doctors are not capable of curing CM DoTs, you have 2 options
- You can post issues in the CM forum asking that their abilities be reduced without giving them anything in return, or...
- You can post in the Doctor forum and lobby for them to have better abilities to cure CM DoTs
I am going to go check and see how many posts you have in the Doctor forums......Sorry, your search yielded no matching results.
It also seems to me that you are complaining because Doctors can't counter CMs....but then you concide that your doctors are busy trying to heal while they are fighting....That doesn't fly. If they are there to heal....they are there to heal. It's not a CMs fault that your docors can't cure because healsdon't go off until after your special combat moves already lined up have cleared out, or that attacking slows heals down.
If a Doctor is in the battle to do a Doctor's job, maybe you problems with enemy CMs will seem a little less.
Well on small raid where a CM isn't alway on the enemies side, carrying around a doctor not capable of combat is a waste. In large battles where the odds of meeting a CM rise, doctors assume doctor roles.
Furthermore, waiting for a combat que to empty or curing while fighting isn't an issue as our combat docs drop their combat targets immediately and begin to heal. This can cause problems as their enemy might not be so eager to stop fighting him/her especially after finding out they are a doctor.
The problem doesn't lie in the quantity of medical personel that I travel with, the problem is stacking and/or rapid application of disease/poisons. This topic has been beaten into mush around here. It's a problem with havla. I further suggest that a real problem lies in CM clone zerging, and even if you don't deathblow them so that this doesn't occur, they can spam one or two area poisons before they fall again. Havla is the problem, it has been discussed and submitted to the devs. It isn't my purpose to point that out. It is my purpose to call for solutions to the problem. Be they upgrading doctors or CMs, or otherwise.
Perhaps you are right, I should recruit more "pure" doctors, but my main point is that making sure you have adequate doctors to protect a team shouldn't be so hard. Please note that I travel with 25% doctor teams. Having to recruit more doctors seems slightly absurd.
On your comment that I should be pushing for solutions on the Doctor forum. I like the idea that CM's should be the ones who neutralize poisons/diseases. Poisons/diseases are the foremost medical problems that a group faces in combat, so CM's should be the ones to heal it. I want to see an area cure poison/disease. It is way too time consuming to cure fighters one by one. I say that one or both of the elite medical professions should get that ability. Let docs be the buffers, CM's be the poisoners, but both cure poisons/diseases.
I propose that docs be able to "one hit" cure all poisons and diseases on a single player, and that CM's be given the ability to area cure poisons and diseases separately. This way docs can be more effective on the battlefield (which they need to be as I have pointed out above) curing single teamates, and CM's get to play the role of team poison neutralization on a widespread scale - effectively stopping the panic that ensues from an enemy CM attack, and restoring order to their combat team.
I feel the two ideas above me are extremely awesome, and I pray SOE puts them in.
Ternque01 wrote:
Your investment in skillpoints is justified heavily in my mind because a ranged profession/combat medic can heal, cure, poison/disease, plus take anyone to town with a ranged profession.
One correction - we can't cure. We get poisons, disease, ranged and area healing, and mindheal. Doctors get all cures (states, poisons, and diseases), wound heals, revive, the bleed cures, and buffs. Medics get the best single target, short-range healing, weaker bleed cures, and weaker wound healing.
There is a huge disparity between someone speaking passionately with good intent and someone speaking passionately with ill intent. That was not recognized by your community at that time. Not everyone who comes in here hoping to balance things knows the history of the combat medic forums and they shouldn't be expected to. Do you know the history of the smuggler community - it is an earful, filled with happiness, sadness, discouragement, and hope. I can tell you that much. For someone with good intent to come intoyour forum and try to bring attention to some issues to be flamed outright isn't cool. That's what happened. I felt my original post went very much more indepth to the ineffectiveness of CM counters than any other I saw, so I felt I was bringing something new to the table. To say that I was merely mindlessly beating a dead horse is incorrectIMO. I was greeted with insults and people saying, "use more effective counters and stop crying". I was crying, because despite the length Igo tocounter what on a regular basis ruins my fun, nothing I see has been done about it. That is not your communities fault that nothing has beendone, but these problems have been around, and I see no actual steps that have been taken to correct it, and that bothers me.
jfang wrote:
Ternque01 wrote:
Well vortexala I have posted here before without mentioning the word nerf, and while I spoke passionately, I kept it factual. I spoke in my normal tone, and had no intention of coming off as harsh.
Anyways, I'm sure you're tired of hearing me speak. Let me just close by saying that I am deeply sadened by the news that the devs see the CM profession as not needingfixes (I'm not gonna say nerfs, because nerfs suck). I love PvP, but I can't stand this. Thanks for your reply vortexala. I know you grow tired of being "political" with "people" like me, but I could care less if you are political. Compassion is all I care about. Anyways, thanks for addressing these issues with the devs (who seem to strongly defend these imbalances). Thanks for telling me that Jest3r is the one to bother about this issue that kills the fun in PvP for me.
To begin with, even if something is spoken "passionately but factual", it can still be trolling. For example, bringing up the range issue is completely factual. However, it has been discussed so many times by this point, and it is a strong rallying point for trolls, so such it is naturally trolling. The poster may not realize this (and if new to the forums, probably will not know this), but the post is a troll post even if it wasn't intended that way. (As invariably somebody will say words to the effect of "yeah, nerf CM's they are too strong", and things go from there...)
Second, the devs have never been quoted as saying they "see the CM profession as not needing fixes". In fact, they have been frequently been quoted saying they do need to be fixed. If range is fixed and what not were fixed, it would be great, and go a long way to improving how CMs perform in combat, and the devs have promised that this is being looked at and will be fixed. What the devs have said is that the CM profession doesn't need a *nerf*, which is very different.
And finally, as mentioned before, the combat medic community on the forums have no vested interest in keeping secrets or in overpowering their professions. When Halva came out, the first about 10 threads about it were kept open. It was a new issue, very relevent to combat medics (although overpowering for combat medics in PvP), and was discussed througly andeven though it would "nerf" CMs if it were changed. It's just that by this point, more than 95% of the "new issues" and "guess what I found" posts are about issues well known and discussed in the past (some of them dating as far back as last August or earlier)...
New and interesting discussion, be it ideas, information, or discussions about combat medics power as compared to other professions, is welcome and even invited (even whensuperficially it isbad for combat medics such as the revelation about halva, as everybody has a vested interest in balancing things). However, posts beating dead horses are less welcome, and trolls (intentional or not) are actively discouraged.
Edit: fixed grammer
Message Edited by jfang on 06-24-2004 11:36 PM
SolSpur wrote:
I propose that docs be able to "one hit" cure all poisons and diseases on a single player
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=doctor&message.id=56278
Theres your one hit wonders
Ternque01 wrote:
Well on small raid where a CM isn't alway on the enemies side, carrying around a doctor not capable of combat is a waste.
Which shows the sad state of damage healing. If we go too farnerfing poisons and diseases, then both doctor and combat medic presence will be a "waste" in all PvP.
Happymob wrote:
Ternque01 wrote:
Well on small raid where a CM isn't alway on the enemies side, carrying around a doctor not capable of combat is a waste.
Which shows the sad state of damage healing. If we go too farnerfing poisons and diseases, then both doctor and combat medic presence will be a "waste" in all PvP.
Very good point, but hopefully I've shown you that poisons/diseases are so strong at this point that doctors are almost a waste. To a team up against multiple CM's, there is no way that doctors can keep up with area poisons and diseases being chucked. Even if the enemy CM's die or incap, poison/disease spam will resume following a standup or clone zerg. That equates to thousands and thousands in unavoidable and unhealable mind damage. While it isa poor consequence of the system that our combat rests on (unhealable mind, mind pool targeting, poison/disease mechanics hard-linked to all other medical capabilities), it is something that needs addressing while this game endures the long, hard wait to the combat balance. While I hear you guys/gals not wanting any nerfs, the community needs viable counters to poisons/diseases and it also needs blatant bug fixes for the CM class.
My suggestions above are:
(1)Give doctors a "one hit" cure to all poisons/diseases that a person has (I'm talking ALL of them) at the same time. One hit from a doctor and a player is good to go again. Doctors are the ultimate healers and should have this capability.
(2) Give combat medics area cures. These area cures would be capable of "one shotting" a single poison or single disease over a large area. Combat medics would then be a class that has the role of "stopping the panic" in war. Nothing stops the panic of mass poison/disease quite like the calm of mass cures. Combat Medics are the ultimate healers in combat and their skills should be most beneficial in battlefield circumstances.
Doctors are a waste now. One counter to this problem is the large amount of serious PvP'ers who pick up doctor just to ensure they will stay alive. It's not Star Wars Galaxies anymore.... it's Medical Wars Galaxies. I'm either inpired to put on a rubber medical glove myself and rejoin PvP or quit this unbalanced excuse for what should be blaster bolts flying everywhere.
PanzerGR wrote:
as ive said before its as simpel as this
if there was no redeemable problem, then so many peopel would not have complained for so long.....and STILL be complaining. Logic dictates and history shows that people usually quit complaining over things once problems are fixed...or soem other way is managed to bypass situations and give appeasement.
THis is nto the case with CM's......so obviously theres a problem. To say there is no problem is just being vain. Sorry but there it is. Not necesarily since the devs have stated over and over that CM is fine where it is. Maybe they've got something in store for us. Oh wait, the combat revamp! "Fixing" something now when changes have already been set in holding until then are a "problem". They tend to make things even more messed up.
a couple of people have said lately...and i guess throughout the entire struggle...is that DoTs are so low DPS.
heres the heart of the matter.....in my opinion.
Yes, they are low DPS, specially for PvE. However, PvP is a whole 'nother ballgame and i think many CM's fail to realize, or just let their arrogance and vanity cloud the issue. Ouch!
I am not a CM, though i have had medic. Ive debated this with guild CM's asked lots of questions and talked at length with 2 correspondants who had guild ties to me over these issues. I consider myself pretty informed.
CM's can stack their DoTs..problem #1. DoTs ignore all mitigations and resistances, problem #2. Doctors do not have an area cure, problem #3 It's not just CM's (altho they are obviously the prime candidate for such discussions) but all DoTs in general. One on one or in small groups docs can handle the problem especially if THEY are using havla. One shot 1k cures even after we've spent a few packs to reach that high of a number and you're telling me something's wrong? CM's are a GROUP healer/poisoner and against LARGE groups we excel. Doctors dont have an area cure nor DESERVE one.
Ill take what i conside rmy most powerful weapon..my scythe. It has AP2 and a max damage of over 510, speed is low enough i think i can coem out with an attack eery 1.5-2 seconds...ill go with a low figure and say 1.5
so every 1.5 second sim doing 510 base damage plus whatever modifier i get from my atatck. However, i have to take into account the fact that ALL OF THESE reduce my damage:
Armor Not for much longer
Buffs *see above
Mitigation Not anymore
Food
Defense
Toughness
75% PvP reduction
I have dueled UNARMORED Teras Kasi and hit them for 15-60 damage on average 60 being a high end number witht he occassional 100 or so hit. First of all you're talking about a TKM who are renowned for having the highest toughness and mitigation in the game and 3rd best defenses. Unarmored you dont get your AP bonus either. But seriously, what cheap novice level specials are you using?
Now take a CM. They can stack poisons on the same pool, so I am told by every CM i talk to. After parousing a few emd shops and gettign an average for poison damages today i foudn that after stacking poisons a CM could get up to 500-800 damage pretty easily. And thats not even accounting for a disease stack on top of the poison. Correct! Although that number goes up if he/she managed to get that rare spider venom (I've seen elvis more often than that stuff).
Now, I grant, that poison ticks slow. But it is UNMITIGATED damage...unreduced in every way. If i could tick sum1 for even HALF of what a CM ticks in combat with my scythe i would die a happy, happy man. And thats a fact. Against a buffed individualwith proper protection, mundane weapons will almost ALWAYS do less damage than an unmitigated atatck, no mater what the DPS is. Yes which is why mitigation is getting removed ASAP and buffs and armor are being nerfed in the combat revamp. Devs already stated that 90% resist armor exceeded their expectations by far hence the nerf. Now comparing a TKM damage vs. all of the stuff you listed they still get anywhere from 60-80 dps which is 600-800 damage every ten seconds. As a rifleman I can get higher since I have AP3 and as a swordsman or pikeman with enough speed to reach the 1 second speed cap you exceed it as well.
Weapon DPS is SIGNIFICANTLY reduced by the facets of combat reductions......DoTs have NOTHING of that to face. Read my signature. Its a ways off but its already got a date to go live. Any other questions?
Now i grant 1 on 1 a CM will most liekly die against an opponent if they cant run away and get away...if their opponent stays up long enough to do the damage necessaryt o bring them down. But, even if he does defeat the CM, he is effectively taken out of combat if he cant heal the DoT because he will have no mind with which to perform actions. Yes, which is why the CM community is asking for a limited form of area/ranged cure. There is currently only 1 medical profession that can cure ANYTHING in this game and thats doctors. Read through our boards and you'll see the numerous ideas on how to solve that problem, some of them are actually good.
In a large scale battle CM's can affect entire groups. Hey wait, isn't that our JOB?
im not trying to go into all aspects of combat and CM's tho. What i AM trying to poin out to all the ignorants who continualyl whine abotu DPS is that....whiel it may tick slow..its completely unmitigated and i dont think theres many players swinging axes, shooting blasters, or throwing fists that wouldn give their left nut to have a completely unmitigated atatck the same way CM's get it. Ive seen my mind tick for 500 in one fell swoop every 20 seconds before....ive seen myself tick faster than that. Heck ive seen uber poisons that took peopel down in 1 tick or 2......anyone who thinks the damage on a CM DoT is inadequate needs to re-examine their thinking. It ticks every 10 seconds and nothing changes that. The issue isn't really poisons here. It the vulnerability of the MIND. Have you ever died to a CM HEALTH poison/disease? No? Didn't think so. Matter of fact what do most people die from? MIND damage! People hate CM's/rifleman/swordsman (if you can hit squat) because the do large amounts of MIND damage. Make the MIND equal to the health and action pools and the problem is solved. Post that in the devs forums so they know. Oh wait...THEY DO! *see combat revamp
p.s.- Melee mitigation (not sure if ranged) is getting removed completely. That means overpowered MELEE professions can do more damage to each other.
Seriously less kung fu and more shooting.