Combat Medic Archive

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Everyone66 wrote:

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RedAnubis wrote:

Some can argue that the combat classes are subject to addition factors as, defences, movement, range to target, etc... to why the MCM is overpowered. But the reality is that a MCM has next to no defences, easily hit during the time interval required for the actually throwing of the poison.

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A BH has as much defense as an MCM. They are easily hit during the time interval required for actually shooting their pistol. Also, once a poison lands, its ticks do not miss. A BH will usually miss a percentage (anywhere from 15-90% depending on the target's defense) of their attacks, reducing their dps by that much.

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Adune wrote:

[snip]

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To address Zarlor:
LoS: There are issues with how AoE DoTs go thorugh walls/floors that can be exploited. Those are acknowledged as bugs and the Devs are looking into them.

This is by far the #1 problem with CM's. It makes the AE attack basically unavoidable, while allowing the CM to hit large numbers of people while remaining safe from attack, by being sneaky about where the ae is targeted.

I have never seen the Devs say this is a bug/problem and something that will be fixed.

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I see where I made the error here. There has been no public announcement to this affect, however Pahdbacca when he was the CM Correspondent has announced that "The Devs have been made aware of the fact that AoE medical dots can reach through walls and floors." I will simply confirm, as a correspondent with access to the relavent forum,that thisis the case.

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Practically, I think AE's will remain this way for at least the next 6 months. The coding to change an AE from a simple x, y radius check to a line of sight checking x, y, z calculation for EVERY target is a radical change, and likely one that would drastically increase server load.

This is a problem with no fix in sight. As such, it can't be considered a bug that's about to be fixed. CM needs to be balanced WITH the existance of super AE's. In this case, I feel the easiest fix is implementing the viable AE counter, or drastically nerfing the radius/range on AE's.

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You may or may not be right. That's strictly a Dev call. However I doubt they will spend coding resources to make a "temporary" fix when those resources would be better spent trying to fix the actual problem to begin with. If a "temporary" fix were implemented I hate to say it but it would likely not be temporary and once the final fix was implemented CMs would have been double-nerfed into oblivion. But if you don;t play the profession, what would it matter to you, right?

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Range: It is possible to launch a DoT longer than the standard 64m combat cap. This is also an acknowledged bug and being looked into.

This has been a problem since uhh, November? Early December? Quite a while now. It's a simple matter of adding a range check to all CM throws. If you try to throw more than 64m, it says, "Your target is out of range.". Time to program isn't an excuse here. There's already range checking in place, where it looks at your throw skills, and the range on the pack. You simply add a 64m cap to that. Something can be acknowledged as a bug, but if nothing is done about that bug, it becomes standard gameplay. So let's stop calling 88m poison & diseases a bug. It's bad balance, not a bug. As bad balance, it needs to be addressed.

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You stated this is a "simple matter". Unless you have access to the game code I can only say that the simplicity of the fix simply cannot be gauged from our vantage point. It may SEEM simple, but that doe not mean that it IS simple. The first part of this fix was already implemented and it IS being worked on. I'm not making any "excuses" for it. If you want to blame someone for that, start sending messages to SOE about it.

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As for mind damage, I'm hoping the combat revamp addresses that problem, and the classes that can target mind are no longer the be all and end all of PvP.

Here's the bottom line:
Combat medics as they are now have an unblalancing effect on PvP, and have been for quite some time now. There are no fixes for any of the bugs that have been brought to dev attention months ago. That makes those bugs, like it or not, a part of the CM class, because they've been here so long, with no change. Patience is a virtue, but the squeaky wheel gets the grease. I see D stacking is getting fixed. CM's could be balanced too. Anything is possible, and bringing attention to the issues makes the "grease" come sooner.

Have you seen the latest "Aqua Commando" tactics? It seems you can throw Poisons & Diseases from the water. Our CM's have been launching persistent attacks on sea-side rebel cities. Because they can't be attacked back, it's very difficult to root them out.

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Except you are forgetting the general coding time, not to mention who you are "squeaking" to. The Devs aren't going to be able to code the combat revamp any faster than they already are, no matter how much you try to squeak. The other problem is that you are squeaking where the Devs likely won't hear you anyway. Why? Because the CM Correspondent is going to pass on the issues from this forum that the CMs bring up that are CM issues. Many of the ones mentioned here are already on that list. The best place to squeak would be in the general threads and the In Concept threads (like the one on Combat Mix & Match), effectively getting the issues out to Jest3r, the GCW Correspondent. I can't see what good folks are expecting to accomplish here, when all that really occurs is disruption of CMs discussing things with each other. If your goal is raise CM hackles, ok lots of folks are doing that, but then what's the point of that, really?

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(And reall, what do you expect. If I came to another profession's forum to comaplin they were a problem, despite some acknowledged bugs and issues that those folks already know about, you think you wouldn't get defensive about it? It would be disruptive and, in the final assessment, unproductive.)

CM's aren't just defensive about things. They're distainful and arrogant about it, and for the most part, refuse to acknowledge that the class, bugs present is horribly overpowered. We're talking about serious game bugs that break GCW PvP to the point where it's the same lame thing every time, because of one class. The average CM post in response to balance concerns is, "We're not overbalanced, we're underpowered, look at our low DPS, how we have no defense, and how many skill points this takes! Now **edit** off you noob whiner, ha ha." Really, it gets old fast, especially to those of us that have been trying to have things fixed for months now.

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Actually I would suggest that we have already acknowledged so many of these issues, but what do you expect? Its not like you are the first (or likely the last) person to come in here and try to raise their ire. These posts do little more than try to egg CMs on. Every other profession forum I have ever been to has the same response when someone jumps in to claim how "horrible" they are. There is just as much arrogance and disdain in the posts spitting vitriol about CMs by folks not bothering to recognize the issues we have already recognized.

I'm not fond of CM posts calling folks "noob whiners", either. But I'm just as sick of all the other posts saying CMs should have their arms cut off or any other number of insults trying to say, in effect, "CMs Suck!" It goes both ways. Many of us have also been working to get things fixed for months now, and we are seeing acknowledgements from the Devs and progress because we've been watching it. Folks outside the profession tend to just want to come here and complain, and of course it does no good here. Why would it?

We get just as sick of the attacks on us as you get by the responses we've given. We get just as sick of hearing the same old arguments against us as you are about the arguments for our positions. Worse is that even when we DO agree, the folks who come here refuse to see or acknowedge where we agree and insist, instead on continuing with whatever thier insistent position is (usually that DoTs cause too much damage) without ever acknowledging that maybe, just MAYBE, those other conditions could be a more contributing factor to the issues at hand.

I might add, btw, that when all is said and done at the end of the day that the damage issue is a non-issue. The devs have stated, very plainly, very bluntly, that CM Damage is balanced as far as they are concerned. Why would they say that? All the same darned reasons we have been saying it over and over and over again, to no avail.

If a wheel squeeks in front of someone who can fix it, it might get greased. But if it squeaks in front of someone who has no oil enough time, it's likely to just get kicked and that's what's happening here. You're squeaking to the wrong people. We can't and won'tgrease you.

Just to make sure you didn't miss it: BHs have little to no ranged defense or melee defense as well, and 0 dodge counterattack or block. You can add small amounts of defense to the BH template with your remaining skillpoints, but a combat medic can do the same, only slightly better (more skillpoints to work with). I wasn't really comparing a BH vs CM fight, direct comparisons like that are worthless in an objective argument about a profession's strengths and weaknesses.

I think the entire problem boils down to three things: there aren't enough effective countermeasures against poison in pvp, CMs do too little damage in PvE, and they (have the ability to) do too much in PvP. Concentrating on adjusting those three aspects would probably go a long way towards reducing the nerf criers.

Sorry, just reread that post and realized I should expound on my second and third points (the first already has been well enough if you ask me) in order for you to get an idea of what I'm talking about.

There is no 75% damage reduction for CM poison or disease in PvP. It's safe to say that the 'average' poisons of a month or more ago (those doing 250-500 damage per tick) is not anything to cry nerf over. However the past month has seen an increase in the quality of CM crafted goods (poisons doing much more reliably into the 500 damage range) because of the popularity of the CM profession seeing a number of dedicated crafters providing higher quality services. Further, spidervenom from the new geonosian cave has increased the damage of poison used by regular PvPing CMs up into the 800-1100 damage per tick range. Still, it's safe to say that thrown at a normal creature in PvE,poison dps is lower than anyone elses. However seeing as poison doesn't suffer from the PvP damage restrictions, it is MUCH more effective on a player with 1-3k HAM versus a monster with 20-200k HAM. I personally wouldn't mind seeing poison damage raised by as much as 200% (give or take for the sake of balance), and then shot down in pvp by the 75% damage restriction. The net worth would be poisons that tick for 200-500 damage in pvp (most CMs seem to think this is acceptable) and as much as 2000 per tick in PvE.

Just a thought.

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Everyone66 wrote:

I think the entire problem boils down to three things: there aren't enough effective countermeasures against poison in pvp, CMs do too little damage in PvE, and they (have the ability to) do too much in PvP. Concentrating on adjusting those three aspects would probably go a long way towards reducing the nerf criers.

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No, what he's saying is that you fail to properly calculate CM DPS. The entire discussion of CM DPS is a distraction. DPS isn't the problem. The problems I listed above. It cannot be avoided, and it cannot be cured.

In order to be balanced, DoT damage MUST be much lower than burst damage. Burst damage requires you being in range, with line of sight, alive, and with the HAM available to use specials. Burst damage can miss, be blocked by armor, blocked by food now, and with the exception of Rifleman, TK, and BH, can be easily healed by anyone with basic Medic skills, and stim B's.

Eryn, the packs LFD is using right now have Eff in the 400's with range of 42m. I'm not sure if ours are just really amazing, or if yours are sub par, I make the armor in the PA, not the meds. We never make anything with range that low though, the more range advantage you have, the more you can abuse CM.

The problem is that you're trying to equate DoT damage to burst damage. They're not the same, by a long shot, and can't be compared as such. DoT damage is something that is applied once, and keeps affecting the target. Burst damage is something that is applied once, and affects the target once.

Comparing the DPS between the two is just as invalid as comparing the total damage of the two. Let's just do that for fun.

CM AE poison attack, hitting only say 10 people, 400 effectiveness:
800 damage per tick for 12 ticks (We'll only count the first 2 minutes of the damage) by 10 people.
That's 96,000 damage from a single attack. Wow, not bad eh?

Now we'll compare that to a master rifleman HS3 with one of those funky new rifles that can hit 600 max damage, on an unarmored target. 600(+AP2 bonus)*2.5*.75=585 mind damage.

Wow! CM's deal 164 times as much damage with a single attack as a master rifleman with an uber gun can in a single attack. See what I mean? You can't compare apples to oranges. By your numbers, CM has normal to low DPS. (You ignored the AE aspect of your attack: Hitting 5 people with one of your (low effect) AE packs is 225 DPS, far higher than any of the other classes you listed. Hitting 10 people, it's even higher.

The problem with CM is that it's very easy to abuse the various bugs that exist, or poor game design.

To address Zarlor:
LoS: There are issues with how AoE DoTs go thorugh walls/floors that can be exploited. Those are acknowledged as bugs and the Devs are looking into them.

This is by far the #1 problem with CM's. It makes the AE attack basically unavoidable, while allowing the CM to hit large numbers of people while remaining safe from attack, by being sneaky about where the ae is targeted.

I have never seen the Devs say this is a bug/problem and something that will be fixed. Practically, I think AE's will remain this way for at least the next 6 months. The coding to change an AE from a simple x, y radius check to a line of sight checking x, y, z calculation for EVERY target is a radical change, and likely one that would drastically increase server load.

This is a problem with no fix in sight. As such, it can't be considered a bug that's about to be fixed. CM needs to be balanced WITH the existance of super AE's. In this case, I feel the easiest fix is implementing the viable AE counter, or drastically nerfing the radius/range on AE's.

Range: It is possible to launch a DoT longer than the standard 64m combat cap. This is also an acknowledged bug and being looked into.

This has been a problem since uhh, November? Early December? Quite a while now. It's a simple matter of adding a range check to all CM throws. If you try to throw more than 64m, it says, "Your target is out of range.". Time to program isn't an excuse here. There's already range checking in place, where it looks at your throw skills, and the range on the pack. You simply add a 64m cap to that. Something can be acknowledged as a bug, but if nothing is done about that bug, it becomes standard gameplay. So let's stop calling 88m poison & diseases a bug. It's bad balance, not a bug. As bad balance, it needs to be addressed.

As for mind damage, I'm hoping the combat revamp addresses that problem, and the classes that can target mind are no longer the be all and end all of PvP.

Here's the bottom line:
Combat medics as they are now have an unblalancing effect on PvP, and have been for quite some time now. There are no fixes for any of the bugs that have been brought to dev attention months ago. That makes those bugs, like it or not, a part of the CM class, because they've been here so long, with no change. Patience is a virtue, but the squeaky wheel gets the grease. I see D stacking is getting fixed. CM's could be balanced too. Anything is possible, and bringing attention to the issues makes the "grease" come sooner.

Have you seen the latest "Aqua Commando" tactics? It seems you can throw Poisons & Diseases from the water. Our CM's have been launching persistent attacks on sea-side rebel cities. Because they can't be attacked back, it's very difficult to root them out.

(And reall, what do you expect. If I came to another profession's forum to comaplin they were a problem, despite some acknowledged bugs and issues that those folks already know about, you think you wouldn't get defensive about it? It would be disruptive and, in the final assessment, unproductive.)

CM's aren't just defensive about things. They're distainful and arrogant about it, and for the most part, refuse to acknowledge that the class, bugs present is horribly overpowered. We're talking about serious game bugs that break GCW PvP to the point where it's the same lame thing every time, because of one class. The average CM post in response to balance concerns is, "We're not overbalanced, we're underpowered, look at our low DPS, how we have no defense, and how many skill points this takes! Now **edit** off you noob whiner, ha ha." Really, it gets old fast, especially to those of us that have been trying to have things fixed for months now.

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Everyone66 wrote:

Sorry, just reread that post and realized I should expound on my second and third points (the first already has been well enough if you ask me) in order for you to get an idea of what I'm talking about.

There is no 75% damage reduction for CM poison or disease in PvP. It's safe to say that the 'average' poisons of a month or more ago (those doing 250-500 damage per tick) is not anything to cry nerf over. However the past month has seen an increase in the quality of CM crafted goods (poisons doing much more reliably into the 500 damage range) because of the popularity of the CM profession seeing a number of dedicated crafters providing higher quality services. Further, spidervenom from the new geonosian cave has increased the damage of poison used by regular PvPing CMs up into the 800-1100 damage per tick range. Still, it's safe to say that thrown at a normal creature in PvE,poison dps is lower than anyone elses. However seeing as poison doesn't suffer from the PvP damage restrictions, it is MUCH more effective on a player with 1-3k HAM versus a monster with 20-200k HAM. I personally wouldn't mind seeing poison damage raised by as much as 200% (give or take for the sake of balance), and then shot down in pvp by the 75% damage restriction. The net worth would be poisons that tick for 200-500 damage in pvp (most CMs seem to think this is acceptable) and as much as 2000 per tick in PvE.

Just a thought.

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My AoE Poison stats are based on the resources I have collected. No rare loot venom, bile, etc... used. All my crafted CM items have 12 experimentation points.

My Poison C singles

Changes: 41
Potency: 141
Effectiveness: 325
Range: 37
CM Use: 57

Now shall we compare apples?

As for the oranges we could use flurryshot2 (believe it's this one) at Master Rifleman, no?

DO yourself a favor. Go overt, kill a CM in his own town, then stand by his cloner. done?

Now do that vs any other proffession and tell me why you are able to all ofa sudden camp.