Combat Medic Archive

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Zarlor wrote:

Here is a preliminary write-up to help inform folks about CMs and the whole "CM Damage" issue (and why damage isn't the issue at all.) I just threw it together so any corrections, suggestions, additions and so forth are most welcome.

[edited to include some of the suggestions from this thread]

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CM “Nerf” FAQ

A lot of folks are currently upset about the perceived imbalance over the damage Combat Medics appear to inflict in PvP. Their frustration results in the rather natural reaction that they think CMs should have their damage reduced, as if that was the true problem (because it is the part that is most easily seen on the receiving end of Medical DoTs.) Many of these folks want to see things fixed now and decide to come to the CM forum as a way to lash out at this perceived injustice.

This FAQ is my attempt to educate folks about the issues that surround Combat Medics and Medical DoTs, where the problems really lie and how these issues are actually being fixed. Patience is the key word to remember here. The Developers are only capable of programming things so quickly without cause major problems in other areas of the game. Just be patient and realize that the fixes are coming and this really is not the proper forum to complain that CM need to be “nerfed”, when in fact the balance fixes you really seek are already on their way.

Something to keep in mind is that we are still only at stage 2 of the Combat Revamp. To quote Thunderheart we are at a fairly painful stage of the process.

“In terms of gameplay, this second stage of over all combat balancing is going to bring with it a new wave of change; damage, to-hit, specials and the full scope of weapon combat will be out of whack for a little bit, but keep in mind, creature changes are in and at this stage, weapons will be falling into place; 2 of the 4 basic subsystems will be trued up with each other.”

http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=Developers&message.id=14605

CMs need to have the damage on their DoTs reduced because...

-- They do all that damage to the unhealable Mind pool!

The Combat Revamp, currently in the works and hopefully fully implemented within the next few months, should see special actions being placed onto a separate Health/Action/Mind “Specials Bar”, instead of causing damage directly to the main HAM Bars. As such the primary reason that Mind Damage healing was removed from the game back in Beta (the ability to heal the pool that is used to do the healing) will be removed. This means the barriers that required harsh penalties to be a part of the mind healing process will no longer be required. The Devs have assured us that Mind Damage Healing will, indeed, be put back into the game at a more accessible level, although they have not mentioned how it will be implemented. (My personal belief is that we will see it right back where it used to be, and that stims will simply heal all 3 pools in the same way they used to do in Beta.). This is an unhealable pool issue, not a damage issue.

--They can throw their DoTs over 64m!

This has been acknowledged as a known issue that the Devs are working on a solution for. CMs are not supposed to be able to launch a poison out past the 64m combat range limit and this is being looked into. That is a range problem, however, not a damage issue.

-- There is no way to resist a DoT!

This is not strictly true. All medical DoTs do have some form of resistance inherently built into them. It is called the Potency rating and is generated on the DoT during the creation process. A CM can even experiment on this rating to improve the chances that the DoT will not be resisted (although doing so means less Experimentation Points to put into other areas, such as how much damage the DoT will do per tick.) There is a new Chef Food which helps to provide some level of resistance to DoTs, and there are a few loot drops as well which provide resistances. Doctors have suggested to the Devs, as part of a Master Doctor Benefits issue, that they would like some form of “immunization” pack that may also be a way to provide some resistances to DoTs which may or may not be implemented at some future date, but the Devs did state they liked the idea. But, again, this is a resistance issue, not a damage issue.

-- The Area Effect (AoE) DoTs do MASSIVE amounts of damage because they affect so many people at one time!

The primary counter to AoE attacks is simply tactics. Don’t get caught being bunched up. Spread out. That being said, however, there are many who would agree that the standard counter for CM DoTs, namely Doctor Cure Packs, simply cannot provide a proper counter when confronted with an AoE attack. Doctors have suggested that an AoE cure could be considered a counter, as well as the “immunization” idea mentioned earlier. Both of those ideas are on the Doctor issues list for this issue and I would suggest that is the proper forum for pushing for such ideas. However, this is, once again, not a problem with damage, but a problem with AoE counters.

It should also be noted that AoE poisons always do less damage than their singular poison counterparts of the same level.

-- They hit for enough damage to completely kill me in 2 seconds!

Poison DoTs take a full 10 seconds before they cause their first “tick” of damage. (This usually translates to around 8 seconds from when the “victim” sees the “You have been poisoned” message.) Disease DoTs only tick once every 40 seconds. Using extremely rare, expensive and exceptionally difficult to obtain resources a CM might be able to craft a singular (not AoE) poison that might be able to tick for as much as 1000 points of damage in the hands of a Master Combat Medic. That relates to around 100 points of damage every second. By comparison there are unsliced FWG5s available that could be used in the hands of not even a Master Marksman made with less and cheaper resources and would be usable for 10 times (or more) longer than that poison pack would be that will hit for at least as much damage even after the 75% PvP reduction. Understanding what is happening is key to understanding how to counter and avoid it. This isn’t a problem with damage, it is an over-exaggeration of that damage by seeing how much it causes at the time when it finally does tick.

-- I can’t do anything about the damage that DoT is doing to me!

Sure you can. Get a Doctor. It may seem like a trite statement but most tactics in SWG have a counter. A Doctor is the counter to a CM. Doctor’s can cure a DoT before the Dot even causes any damage at all. They cannot keep up with AoE attacks, however, but that is another question to consider. Certainly damage is not the problem, only finding the proper counter to it.

-- A profession with the word “medic” in their name shouldn’t be able to use Poisons and Diseases. That’s against the Geneva Convention!

A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away they have obviously never heard of the Geneva Convention nor the Hippocratic Oath (I sure know I never took any such oath in the game when I became either a Medic, Doctor or CM!) Combat Medics have more schematics aimed at their offensive abilities than they do healing schematics. The Master Box of CM is aimed heavily at improving their offensive abilities as well. CMs even have titles available to them such as “Chemical Warfare Specialist.” None of these suggest CMs should not be able to toss poisons and diseases with impunity. This is not 21st Century Earth and our rules simply do not apply to the world of Star Wars. The funny thing is that the semantics used, Poison & Disease, for example, don’t necessarily apply. After all these things seem to act a lot like they are actually composed of nano-bots. How else would the AoE versions be able to distinguish friend from foe? Many seem to take issue with and lend far too much weight to the name “Combat Medic” in comparison to what CMs in SWG can do. Perhaps the real issue should be with the name of Combat Medic instead of what CMs can do.

-- DoTs can Kill!!!

Actually only by combining the Dots of both Poison (causing damage) and Disease (causing wounds) do DoTs actually have the ability to incapacitate (not kill.) Poison or Disease alone cannot incapacitate a player at all, unlike every other form of damage in the game. The fact that a wounding DoT and a damaging DoT can combine to cause this particular situation is assumed to be an unintended bug that is proving particularly difficult for the Devs to resolve. We have not had “official” word on this, but by all appearances this is a bug that is being worked on.

-- CMs can hit me with a DoT that is long range, does massive damage and that can’t be resisted!

This is really just an exaggerated argument. You medical dots can be improved in damage, range OR potency (which lowers resists) using experimentation...however, no 2 of these 3 options can be done at the same time. If 4 points of experimentation are used on range that is 4 points that cannot be used on potency or damage. So it is not entirely possible to make a complete poison that is never resisted, long-range AND has no chance of resistance. One or more of those areas must suffer to get the most out of the others.

-- CMs can toss a poison at me and instantly just run away! I could never catch them because they do so darned much damage!

While it is true that such “hit and run” tactics are part of the mainstay of what a CM MUST do in order to survive in combat, it is not true that they are uncatchable. Outside of the range problems mentioned earlier it should be noted that CMs are “frozen” while in the process of launching a poison. They cannot move or perform any other action (including firing of weapons) at all for a full 4 seconds, leaving them quite vulnerable at that time. The lack of any defensive bonuses for CMs only adds to their level of vulnerability during this critical launching process. Again, being informed about your opponents’ weaknesses is what can help you overcome the tactics of a CM. Still damage is not the issue in this case, it is simply one of tactics and understanding the strengths and weaknesses of your opponent.

Message Edited by Zarlor on 02-26-2004 02:39 PM

Message Edited by Zarlor on 02-26-2004 02:58 PM

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Zarlor.

I invite you to make a character on Bloodfin server and contact me. I will set up with you a few days for you to coem PvPing with my PvP group. Ill be sure to run into a few guilds I know thta use lots of CM's when they PvP.

once you have doen this.....you may continue coming back here and continue trying to deflate this situationw ith CM's into a trivial "nuisance".....my bet is that if you went PvPing against peopel on bloodfin, you wouldnt be on here saying this is just a small issue like you seem to be.

until then.....while u have a few good points.....i think that this problem is much larger than any of the medics want to acknowledge. And let me also say that you continue comparing yourselves to a COmbat Class.

you ARENT a combat class. Get over it.

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Asuph wrote:

You can use low range high damage disease and poisons at a low skill level of CM.

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PanzerGR wrote:

you ARENT a combat class. Get over it.

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Yes I am....

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Xytroncore wrote:

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Gobson wrote:
I know that, his AoE's A's are 600 or some insane number like that

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I needed a good laugh...seriously, Adv AOE A's have an effectiveness of like 45 lmao

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Evark-Xitov wrote:

Should everybody need to be a doctor not to die to a combat medic in pvp?

No just have one around. No one player template should be able to counter anything thrown at them.

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I fail to see any reasona poison would be underpowered if it was reduced 75% in pvp like everything else...it would just take 4x as long which sounds fair to me. Atleast this would give you long enough to find and /tell your local doctor to help you.

Ok so reduce average 600 tic dmg to 150 in PVP. That mere 150 a tic is then further reduced by chances to resist and alot easier for a novice Doc to cure. Furthermore with the type of Focus and Will buffs available this 150 a tic means nothing to the increased regen rate the average player can achieve. Where is the threat of poison if a player doesn't have to worry about it? What point is there in using it if another player can just shrug it off after the trouble I went through to craft a high damage poison?

150 a tic is still annoying, but not so devestating.

How do you thinkcombat classesfeel when their shots are up to 90% resisted by composite and they are buffed? Where is the threat there? You can't always win.... (unless you're a combat medic and they didnt spend the points on doctor)

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Evark-Xitov wrote:

150 a tic is still annoying, but not so devestating.

That's the point. There would be no threat or point to using poison. Weapons in this game are made to be destructive. The Jawa Ion is the most popular rifle to use in PVP. Even though it doesn't even require an investment into Rifleman. Why? Because of stun damage...Is there a counter to stun damage? Yes but it's expensive....So is the counter to poison and disease. And the worst part? It takes less points and creditsto be destructive as a rifleman with a Jawa Ion Rifle than it does to be a Master CM using 40 DPS poisons...It is much more expensive to use 100 DPS poisons and rarer still.

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How do you thinkcombat classesfeel when their shots are up to 90% resisted by composite and they are buffed? Where is the threat there? You can't always win.... (unless you're a combat medic and they didnt spend the points on doctor)

Even as a combat medic you don't always win. I'll admit suicide bombers are lame but for those of us that know how to stay alive after launching our attacks it is still a real challenge.

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Evark-Xitov wrote:

150 a tic is still annoying, but not so devestating.

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Ya...it's annoying, we can become an annoying class...instead of doing ANY damage, we'll become an annoyance...oh ya, sounds like fun /sarcasm

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Asuph wrote:

CM's are more than annoying right now. They are broken, and refuse to admit it. This is what makes other people want to say "nerf", rather than "fix".

As it stands now, a CM can kill a jedi master in about 40 seconds, if he is buffed and in burst run without even firing a shot. Maybe not all the time, but id say 50/50.

Does that seem right? Its the truth...

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I'll bet it is true. Of course only if it was Jedi Master Jar Jar Binks...