Combat Medic Archive
Thread: Reduce Damage Dealing for Healers?
Wild__Bill wrote:
That is my issue. Not saying that nobody should take advantage of grabbing some healing for their template. I just believe that there should be a significant difference between 4000 CM and MCM healing. Right now the difference is so small that is it not even noticable.
Agree with you whole hearteadly here
Brainplay wrote:
Additionally you still haven't given a half decent reason why you think that healers (more specifically CM's) should take a reduction in damage.
Im tired of everyone looking at the game as if they were alone for everything. We need more stuff like the dwb that makes you get a couple key focused people to succeed.
Look at the professions and builds out there jedi asside. Rather than pick one 250 point template against another 250 point template. Put 3 250 point templates against 3 250 point templates. Take the 3 with some healing mixed in all of them and the 3 with a doc or cm and another combat profession and 2 other combat professions and all played well the second more bananced group will win.
You really don't know what you are talk'n about. I am a pure Healer. Master Doctor, Master CM. I tried other templates and always come back to this one. From becore CU when there were 30 man/woman teams to even now in the 8. That is all I do. I don't even carry a weapon. So you saying you don't see a reason to be M.Doc/MCM you are insane and prolly never tried it. Granted I don't go out solo'n. Isn't my cup of tea. I enjoy the teams, and I enjoy keep'n those teams alive. You obviously don't go out an do teams work or try to be a pure healer. So until you try it, and realize how many people will beg you to join there group if you have a M.Doc title up, shoot even a MCMtitle.
As many people said before my post, if people are heal'n they aren't kill'n. So why not have a doc/cm around to heal.
Haven't read much of this thread cos i cba, all i think they need to do to even things up is seriously reduce the amount of healing that dabblers can do so that only people who are prepared to sink a significant amount of points into a healing profession see the real benifits.
And yes, I am a MCM 
TheOtherDude wrote:
Healers need a nerf because they are overpowered. (Well, it certainly turned into an overpowered thread...I guess we can't entertain a thought without necessarily accepting it
) I'm sorry you think that way but it goes both ways. After a thought has been passed around and shown little credibility it is often pushed aside along with the person who keeps on throwing it out. The thought was entertained and discarded already.
Here's an FAQ for ya guys:
Q: Why do Healers need a damage reduction mod and/or a defense reduction mod?
A: Healers are overpowered. They need to be brought into balance somehow. The idea of damage reduction mods and/or defense reduction mods allows this to happen without crippling a healers ability to actually heal. This is not a healthy thing to introduce into the game. The balance you seek is not located in a damage reduction but in a scattering of the abilities and the making of the master levels something worthwhile instead of just a teir 4 box. This includes ALL combat professions not just the healers. Cross profession specials have done a fine job of destroying group specific roles although not so much as the need for a dedicated healer especially when in group PvP and high content PvE.
Q: How do you know healers are overpowered?
A: Every competitive PvP and every competitive solo-PvE template includes at least some healer. Those PvP templates are strictly for soloist only and have little impact in group PvP except for Jedi who use up few skillpoints to have better healing than a master level doctor or CM. Healing in the Pre-CU days wasn't really needed except in PvE since it was all about attack a non-healable pool. Now that armor and buffs were reduced healing has been a much needed thing. This is characteristic of all MMO's. The healer has always been someone heavily armored and could do a decent amount of damage on their own. However, their main benefit was group support which is still true today. Reducing the defenses or damage would take away from group effectiveness but would increase the chances of a non-healer vs a healer in a duel or 1vs.1 fight. This doesn't pan out as SOE has already posted directly that their intent is to increase the need for groups and less for solo. Nice idea for duels or the BH/Jedi interaction but a bad impact for the rest of us.
Q: Why are they overpowered? Shouldn't the skillpoint cost prevent that from happening?
A: In theory, it should. However, in practice it doesn't even come close. With cross-weapon specials and general speed/accuracy mods it is easy to craft a completely functional bare-bones template (That is proficient with a type of weapon, includes at least two high-damage specials, and includes a knockdown, root, snare, and/or a mez) with plenty of skillpoints to spare. The choice is then between extra speed, accuracy, and defense mods, extra crowd-control specials, or healing. For PvP or solo-PvE, healing is always the best choice here. There needs to be some reason not to choose healing when it comes down to that decision. In theory you are correct, in actuality you are incorrect. The accuracy, speed, and durations on all of things mentioned are much lower than someone dedicated to that profession. Sure you can dabble but it comes at a cost. Sure you can pick up +25 in general speed and accuracy tapes but so can the others (and they do). This is why dabbler profession dont dabble as much as you'd think. Granted though I will agree that alot more "advanced" specials and mods need to be moved to master level boxes.
As to the highlighted statement you'll have to go into more detail next time for the others but I'll answer it for you. SOLO pvp and solo-pve both need healing. The key being SOLO. In group PvP or PvE you bring along your dedicated healer with you while being able to help with small heals from time to time. SOE has done a great job of getting away from solo jobs by making healing a sudden key. The skill mods you always seem to overlook and downplay are missing from those with decent healing skills. For the soloist its still possible but is much more prolonged than someone who comes with a healer buddy and a template dedicated to damage and tanking.
Q: Wouldn't just moving the majority of healing up to the master boxes fix the problem?
A: No. A bare-bones ranged template like the one above still has room for Master Combat Medic. In addition, the profession of Combat Medic includes much more than just healing. It is one of the most effective crowd-control professions in the game, so people that now only have CM4000 would just trade in whatever they were using their skillpoints on for the excellent crowd control in the other branches of the profession. Additionally, doing this would further hinder melee professions as they do not have a pre-req in common with a healer profession, so fitting Master Doctor (or especially MCM) into a bare-bones melee template would be near impossible. Also, not that anyone really cares, but shifting the healing into the master box for jedi would mean making the profession much less interesting as far as variety of templates goes. First of all you're exaggerating the "most effective crowd control" statement bigtime. Smugglers have better and longer duration dazes than we do and they can be applied at 65m (even on multiples with a radius weapon) while ours are short duration and applied at 10m. There is a better crowd control special out there for every debuff minus thyroid which is cancelled out by an adrenal boost.
To the melee statement. I can see where you're going with this but melee on loose out on 15 points more than a ranged profession. Better than 45 in the pre-cu days where you HAD to be a partial doctor/CM in order to master a melee profession. Of course they would make up for it now with the "armor break" special with a melee unique thing now.
To your final statement about Jedi, shifting the healing specials around the Jedi healer trees and making Master Jedi healing something needed to do and/or surpass the healing they're able to do now would not make jedi any less interesting in variety. Rather the would have to rethink their strategy and work around a single healer support figure or deal with limited healing abilities. Thats one thing I'll agree on. No one should have that kind of healing ability with a single tree as opposed to a full master box (very little difference indeed). Not Jedi, not CM's, not Doctors.
Your ideas make sense from a soloist or dueling perspective. From a group point and overall game perspective they are horrible. You need to take a step back and see just how they would impact the overall game especially for those that aren't BH/jedi type or those that dont solo hunt krayts for uber L337 stuff on a regular basis for the purpose of solo PvP as so many seem to do. Try going on more DWB, corvette, and Detachment HQ takedowns and you'll see what I mean.
This game is already struggling for group content. Dont try and reinforce it with a soloist mentality. You can play counterstrike for that.
I probably forgot something, but I'll be sure to do another FAQ if I need to.
Message Edited by TheOtherDude on 07-20-200504:01 PM
Message Edited by TheOtherDude on 07-20-200506:12 PM
Message Edited by Brainplay on 07-21-200510:14 AM
Message Edited by Brainplay on 07-21-200510:14 AM
Message Edited by Brainplay on 07-21-200510:15 AM
Message Edited by Brainplay on 07-21-2005 10:15 AM
TheOtherDude wrote:
Q: Why are they overpowered? Shouldn't the skillpoint cost prevent that from happening?
A: In theory, it should. However, in practice it doesn't even come close. With cross-weapon specials and general speed/accuracy mods it is easy to craft a completely functional bare-bones template (That is proficient with a type of weapon, includes at least two high-damage specials, and includes a knockdown, root, snare, and/or a mez) with plenty of skillpoints to spare. The choice is then between extra speed, accuracy, and defense mods, extra crowd-control specials, or healing. For PvP or solo-PvE, healing is always the best choice here. There needs to be some reason not to choose healing when it comes down to that decision. In case you have some problem with my other post answering this then I'll put it in simpler terms. The problem isn't with healers. The problem is with the lack of difference between the master box and the power of dabblers in both healing and combat. Making a mastery more worth is would solve a majority of your issues right away. This is something most of us here having been pushing for the longest time. Pre-CU the difference between a 4/4/4/4 rifleman and a master was huge. It needs to happen again.
And by the way, I see why you wouldtake issue with the way I disregarded some of the smalldifferences in the post where I examined the Healer and Non-healer templates. I did indeed skim past them inmy comentary (perhaps that's why Brain had such a problem with them, too), but you'll notice that the smallest of differences are accounted for in my finalnumbers. I have problems when people post numbers and dont back them up with research notes or by backing them up with strictly guesswork whichtends to invalidate something and drops the poster's credibility with me. It comes with my line of expertise to bestrict about number details on research. Thats all.
TheOtherDude wrote:
Thatguyfubu wrote:
Ok I do have to disagree with the original poster here. I was a MBH / MRifle / Pistol 0404. Then switched to MCM / MRifles / Pistol 0404, and now I am MCM / MPistols / Doc 0004. I have personal experince with all these situations and I know the ins and outs for playing the damage dealer and healer. First off let me tell you that high accuracy and high defense play a major factor in PvP and PvE. With my first template I had a ranged accuracy with a rifle of over 320. I was able to take down some Jedi in as little as 3 hits. Now just by simply switching MBH to MCM using the same weapon and the same special get roughly 500 points less damage per shot. I also take a lot more damage per shot but that is ok becuase I can heal myself the difference. If you try to tell me that a damage dealer won't use duelers stance then I guess you have never really played this template at all. Now as far as others in my group with healing abilities, yes everyone in my group either has 1300+ stim-d or medic or one line in doc or cm. However I am still the primary group healer, and you know what during very large PvP fights or high end PvE I am glad they have healing abilities to help me out in a crunch or even to heal me when I get the aggro. Also there are many times when I intentionally take the aggro becuase I know I can heal myself faster then trying to heal 8 other people. If I see everyone in my group taking a lot off damage I will run in there and hit and area heal to get the aggro, concentrate on healing myself and let them take down the mob without needing to waste a combat cycle on a heal or getting an incap.
So before you go saying that something is overpowered or not needed anymore, step back and look at the whole picture and not just a peice of it. Yes it is true that a Doc 4000 can heal better than a MCM but you know what they can't debuff, and they can't hit for as much damage as pure combat professions.
Also if you find that as a primary healer your not needed to heal as much maybe you need to find some additional skills that might help the group, reason I went pisoleer was for the nice specials they get to compliment the CM debuffs.
So you tested that a difference of 55 Accuracy made a 500point difference in the damage you dealt? What percentage difference is that? Andthat number'sbefore armor reduction, right? What special were you using? What was the min and max damage on the weapon? What were you shooting? Sorry for all the questions, but your infoseems togo against all the testing I've done
In case you didn't see, Isaw 190 Accuracy making a difference of about 12%at the most. In some situations, the 190 extra accuracy made absolutely no difference in the damage Idealt.
Thatguyfubu wrote:
TheOtherDude wrote:
Thatguyfubu wrote:
Ok I do have to disagree with the original poster here. I was a MBH / MRifle / Pistol 0404. Then switched to MCM / MRifles / Pistol 0404, and now I am MCM / MPistols / Doc 0004. I have personal experince with all these situations and I know the ins and outs for playing the damage dealer and healer. First off let me tell you that high accuracy and high defense play a major factor in PvP and PvE. With my first template I had a ranged accuracy with a rifle of over 320. I was able to take down some Jedi in as little as 3 hits. Now just by simply switching MBH to MCM using the same weapon and the same special get roughly 500 points less damage per shot. I also take a lot more damage per shot but that is ok becuase I can heal myself the difference. If you try to tell me that a damage dealer won't use duelers stance then I guess you have never really played this template at all. Now as far as others in my group with healing abilities, yes everyone in my group either has 1300+ stim-d or medic or one line in doc or cm. However I am still the primary group healer, and you know what during very large PvP fights or high end PvE I am glad they have healing abilities to help me out in a crunch or even to heal me when I get the aggro. Also there are many times when I intentionally take the aggro becuase I know I can heal myself faster then trying to heal 8 other people. If I see everyone in my group taking a lot off damage I will run in there and hit and area heal to get the aggro, concentrate on healing myself and let them take down the mob without needing to waste a combat cycle on a heal or getting an incap.
So before you go saying that something is overpowered or not needed anymore, step back and look at the whole picture and not just a peice of it. Yes it is true that a Doc 4000 can heal better than a MCM but you know what they can't debuff, and they can't hit for as much damage as pure combat professions.
Also if you find that as a primary healer your not needed to heal as much maybe you need to find some additional skills that might help the group, reason I went pisoleer was for the nice specials they get to compliment the CM debuffs.
So you tested that a difference of 55 Accuracy made a 500point difference in the damage you dealt? What percentage difference is that? Andthat number'sbefore armor reduction, right? What special were you using? What was the min and max damage on the weapon? What were you shooting? Sorry for all the questions, but your infoseems togo against all the testing I've done
In case you didn't see, Isaw 190 Accuracy making a difference of about 12%at the most. In some situations, the 190 extra accuracy made absolutely no difference in the damage Idealt.
Remember I was around 320 accurracy with a rifle before the change over. However using the improved head shot special from rifle man with a trando hunting rifle shooting at a lare tower turret. Prior to template change I was hitting for over 2500 per shot, after dropping MBH and going MCM I was hitting for 1900 per shot. However I want to state that I also feel something was chaged with the accuracy over damage bonues over the last 2 patches. At one time using advanced aim made a very large increase (hitting for over 3K damage on same turret) tonow adding nothing at all.
Yeah, it seems like they did change the way accuracy works. It used to be that more accuracy equaled more damage. Period. Now it appears that Accuracy Vs. Defense determines what value (between the min and max damage of the weapon) is multiplied by the special.
Vander_Legion wrote:
There's NO way I could agree to damage reduction for healers. As a TKM MCM my damage is already crap, even with the dots. Healing is just part of my tanking ability basically. You reduce the damage I do and I'll never be able to solo anything unless I wanna spend about a half hour fighting things my own level.
jonzi wrote:
Haven't read much of this thread cos i cba, all i think they need to do to even things up is seriously reduce the amount of healing that dabblers can do so that only people who are prepared to sink a significant amount of points into a healing profession see the real benifits.
And yes, I am a MCM
I would refer you to the FAQ, but instead I think I'll elaborate on what I posted in it. Cross-weapon specials,generalspeed/accuracy mods, anddiminishing returns on skill mods(I left that important point out of the FAQ) make it easy to craft a template that has all the basics with plenty of skillpoints to spare. I call a template with all the basics a "bare-bones template." A bare-bones template is a template that is proficient with one type of weapon, has two damage specials, and has somebasic crowd controll. Adding morespeed, accuracy, or defense mods toa bare-bones templateis not going to have nearly as much of an impact because of (amongother things) diminishing returns. A template rarely has a need for more than two damage specials, so adding a third or fourthisn't going to help much. Once you havethe basic crowd control specials, adding some more to your arsenal isn't going tomake much of a difference(Improved Concussion Shot being the oneexception).Ifone is able to fit substantial healing into a bare-bones template he is going to be overpowered. If one can fit MCM or MDoc into a bare-bones template he is going to be overpowered and reducing the amount of healing dabblers can do isn't going to change anything.
Message Edited by TheOtherDude on 07-21-2005 01:47 PM
Huh? My Jedi is MLS/MDef/Healer 4040 and he heals quite well. At 4xxx healer you get Improved Force Infusion and Advance Force heal for 1500 points. Pretty much the other 3 lines are state heals, wound healing, and debuffs. At master healer you Total heal which IMHO is a waste as it sucks your force dry.
samijx wrote:
TheOtherDude wrote:
Healers need a nerf because they are overpowered.
Dude, sounds like you're a disgruntled jedi. You want uber healing, but want all of your opponents to die a painful death at your hands because you don't deserve to lose. The reason why you lose is cause those you fight heal themsellves. The reason why you don't have such good healing is cause you spent all your skill points in LS and defender trees and since you don't have enough points to become highly advanced in the healing arts, you simply think it's unfair. I think you're silly. If you want good healing then go and get some. If you don't want it, that's your perogative as well, but don't crap on all those players that want to stay alive in a fight, especially a fight against you!
Brainplay wrote:
TheOtherDude wrote:
Healers need a nerf because they are overpowered. (Well, it certainly turned into an overpowered thread...I guess we can't entertain a thought without necessarily accepting it
Here's an FAQ for ya guys:
Q: Why do Healers need a damage reduction mod and/or a defense reduction mod?
A: Healers are overpowered. They need to be brought into balance somehow. The idea of damage reduction mods and/or defense reduction mods allows this to happen without crippling a healers ability to actually heal. This is not a healthy thing to introduce into the game. The balance you seek is not located in a damage reduction but in a scattering of the abilities and the making of the master levels something worthwhile instead of just a teir 4 box. This includes ALL combat professions not just the healers. Cross profession specials have done a fine job of destroying group specific roles although not so much as the need for a dedicated healer especially when in group PvP and high content PvE.
Q: How do you know healers are overpowered?
A: Every competitive PvP and every competitive solo-PvE template includes at least some healer. Those PvP templates are strictly for soloist only and have little impact in group PvP except for Jedi who use up few skillpoints to have better healing than a master level doctor or CM. Healing in the Pre-CU days wasn't really needed except in PvE since it was all about attack a non-healable pool. Now that armor and buffs were reduced healing has been a much needed thing. This is characteristic of all MMO's. The healer has always been someone heavily armored and could do a decent amount of damage on their own. However, their main benefit was group support which is still true today. Reducing the defenses or damage would take away from group effectiveness but would increase the chances of a non-healer vs a healer in a duel or 1vs.1 fight. This doesn't pan out as SOE has already posted directly that their intent is to increase the need for groups and less for solo. Nice idea for duels or the BH/Jedi interaction but a bad impact for the rest of us.
Q: Why are they overpowered? Shouldn't the skillpoint cost prevent that from happening?
A: In theory, it should. However, in practice it doesn't even come close. With cross-weapon specials and general speed/accuracy mods it is easy to craft a completely functional bare-bones template (That is proficient with a type of weapon, includes at least two high-damage specials, and includes a knockdown, root, snare, and/or a mez) with plenty of skillpoints to spare. The choice is then between extra speed, accuracy, and defense mods, extra crowd-control specials, or healing. For PvP or solo-PvE, healing is always the best choice here. There needs to be some reason not to choose healing when it comes down to that decision. In theory you are correct, in actuality you are incorrect. The accuracy, speed, and durations on all of things mentioned are much lower than someone dedicated to that profession. Sure you can dabble but it comes at a cost. Sure you can pick up +25 in general speed and accuracy tapes but so can the others (and they do). This is why dabbler profession dont dabble as much as you'd think. Granted though I will agree that alot more "advanced" specials and mods need to be moved to master level boxes.
As to the highlighted statement you'll have to go into more detail next time for the others but I'll answer it for you. SOLO pvp and solo-pve both need healing. The key being SOLO. In group PvP or PvE you bring along your dedicated healer with you while being able to help with small heals from time to time. SOE has done a great job of getting away from solo jobs by making healing a sudden key. The skill mods you always seem to overlook and downplay are missing from those with decent healing skills. For the soloist its still possible but is much more prolonged than someone who comes with a healer buddy and a template dedicated to damage and tanking.
Q: Wouldn't just moving the majority of healing up to the master boxes fix the problem?
A: No. A bare-bones ranged template like the one above still has room for Master Combat Medic. In addition, the profession of Combat Medic includes much more than just healing. It is one of the most effective crowd-control professions in the game, so people that now only have CM4000 would just trade in whatever they were using their skillpoints on for the excellent crowd control in the other branches of the profession. Additionally, doing this would further hinder melee professions as they do not have a pre-req in common with a healer profession, so fitting Master Doctor (or especially MCM) into a bare-bones melee template would be near impossible. Also, not that anyone really cares, but shifting the healing into the master box for jedi would mean making the profession much less interesting as far as variety of templates goes. First of all you're exaggerating the "most effective crowd control" statement bigtime. Smugglers have better and longer duration dazes than we do and they can be applied at 65m (even on multiples with a radius weapon) while ours are short duration and applied at 10m. There is a better crowd control special out there for every debuff minus thyroid which is cancelled out by an adrenal boost.
To the melee statement. I can see where you're going with this but melee on loose out on 15 points more than a ranged profession. Better than 45 in the pre-cu days where you HAD to be a partial doctor/CM in order to master a melee profession. Of course they would make up for it now with the "armor break" special with a melee unique thing now.
To your final statement about Jedi, shifting the healing specials around the Jedi healer trees and making Master Jedi healing something needed to do and/or surpass the healing they're able to do now would not make jedi any less interesting in variety. Rather the would have to rethink their strategy and work around a single healer support figure or deal with limited healing abilities. Thats one thing I'll agree on. No one should have that kind of healing ability with a single tree as opposed to a full master box (very little difference indeed). Not Jedi, not CM's, not Doctors.
Your ideas make sense from a soloist or dueling perspective. From a group point and overall game perspective they are horrible. You need to take a step back and see just how they would impact the overall game especially for those that aren't BH/jedi type or those that dont solo hunt krayts for uber L337 stuff on a regular basis for the purpose of solo PvP as so many seem to do. Try going on more DWB, corvette, and Detachment HQ takedowns and you'll see what I mean.
This game is already struggling for group content. Dont try and reinforce it with a soloist mentality. You can play counterstrike for that.
I probably forgot something, but I'll be sure to do another FAQ if I need to.
Message Edited by TheOtherDude on 07-20-200504:01 PM
Message Edited by TheOtherDude on 07-20-200506:12 PM
Message Edited by Brainplay on 07-21-200510:14 AM
Message Edited by Brainplay on 07-21-200510:14 AM
Message Edited by Brainplay on 07-21-200510:15 AM
Message Edited by Brainplay on 07-21-200510:15 AM
Message Edited by TheOtherDude on 07-21-2005 03:30 PM
Message Edited by TheOtherDude on 07-21-2005 03:32 PM
Message Edited by TheOtherDude on 07-21-2005 03:33 PM
Message Edited by TheOtherDude on 07-21-2005 08:56 PM