Combat Medic Archive
Thread: Reduce Damage Dealing for Healers?
That is my issue. Not saying that nobody should take advantage of grabbing some healing for their template. I just believe that there should be a significant difference between 4000 CM and MCM healing. Right now the difference is so small that is it not even noticable.
Zimal wrote:
not to miss the point your trying to make but i am sure i am... isn't your whole argument based on the fact that it is easy for just about any templete to pick up some healing.... yet in the example you just stated. They are Master CM which is not the issue. Also with the templetes you list, the MBH is always going to be useing duelest stance, as that is what makes a bh a bh... also for your damage done. Ok yes the healer will heal for a lot... but what your not takeing into effect is that the damage dealer is dishing out damage while that healer is healing... and you know what, if all your doing is rotating your heals as a healer... i don't care what foods/spices/buffs you have.. your mind is gone in 2 min's flat MAX, while the guy shooting at you can manage his own action, which will last longer then your mind... even if it does run out... there is still ranged shot... Ok, you are both rifleman... which means this is going to be a 50-65 range fight.... sorry your dot's/debuffs are uselless.... ok but let's stop this train of thought and go with what i thought was your original issue...
ok here it goes.. and tell me if i miss this... but what i understood was that your problem was with templets like these:
MBH/MRifle/CM4000
where their healing is almost as good as a MCM's with reativly small skill point investment...
is that close?
Brainplay wrote:
Additionally you still haven't given a half decent reason why you think that healers (more specifically CM's) should take a reduction in damage.
TheOtherDude wrote:
I've done tons of testingon a variety of full templateplayers. The +190 General Ranged Accuracy givenby Deuterium Pyro generally grants a 0-12% increase in damage depending on the innate accuracy of the player using it, theinnate defenses of the target, and the difference between the min and max damage of the weapon. Because Defense Vs Accuracy is what ultimately determines the damage dealt,I was able to gauge the importance of defenses with these numbers.
The actual advantage a person with aspeed of 135 has over a player with a speed of 85 varies depending on the base speed of the rifle. For a rifle with aspeed of 2.5 (about average for rifles), the person with the higher skill mod would enjoy about a 10% lower modified speed stat. Though there has been much debate about whether this really means the weaponwill fire 10% more often, we can assume that it doesfor our purposes here, if you like. Umm..pre-CU rifles are 2.5 average but the new 82 SAC riflesare all 2.7-3.0 speed depending on the materials. However, just exactly where are you getting this 10% number. Is it based off of the dps number showing on a weapon in different template hands, approximation guess work, or did you pug the numbers in the diminishing returns formula and calculate?
If you consider those numbers, you can see why I tend to disregard the speed, accuracy, and defensemods. Huge differences in the values of the mods make relatively small differences in practice. Tested this all myself and I gotta disagree with you there. You're making light of differences that really are bigger than you take them for but oh well. Hmm, maybe I'll test and record the numbers for posterity. Not sure which board to post them on though.
Just a few other points to note:
- I disregarded Duelist Stance and the DoTs for similar reasons, though I did make sure to note in my postthat they both make significant differences. Duelist Stance requires that you not move or perform any action during the charge up time. That, combined with the fact that it takes a good amount of time to use and consumes a reasonable amount of action, detracts from its usefulness. Among other things, the fact that DoTs require that you be within 35m really detract from their usefulness. Both are still main skills that come with the templates. While you do have to be standing still for DS to work (or even CoB) its easily worked around with a macro timer. Something every good BH and melee has down pat.
- The Devs classify Thyroid Rupture as "Attack Control" which is a sub-category of crowd control. That, and the fact that it does the exact same thing asLow Blow, is why I included it as crowd control in my post. Ah I see
- You responded to the second paragraph of my response to Zimal by completely agreeing with me. I was showing the WRONG way to balance healing. The right way to balance healing, I believe, would be to add a damage reduction mod and/or a defense reduction mod. Sorry if I was unclear. I actually responded to both and in both cases I disagreed and listed why previously. I touched off the the damage reduction question but only lightly. Its still a bad idea.
Message Edited by TheOtherDude on 07-20-2005 03:46 AM
Message Edited by TheOtherDude on 07-20-2005 03:47 AM
1) I get the 10% number from having a character with 85 rifle speed hold a rifle and then having a character with 135 rifle speed hold the same rifle. The quest rewarded Trando Hunting Rifles and LD-1 Rifles both have a speed of 2.5. Most run-of-the-mill crafted ones on my server have a speed from 2.45-2.55. I'm not trying to go off on another tangent here, but 82 SAC rifles are overkill in most situations.
2) The weaponsmithforum would be appropriate. I'd love to see your numbers. Sometimes I treat this game like one big math problem, so the more numbers the better 
3) This disadvantages of DoTs are relativelyeasily worked around, too. If I included both Duelist Stance and DoTs in the post you are referring to, I'd have to change my conclusions around. Any offensiveadvantage the Non-Healer template had would be completely erased (at least in high-level PvE and PvP against players with a lot of defense). Taking Duelist Stance into consideration, the Non-Healer would have an approximately 20% advantage as far as defense goes (at the very most).
4) Actually, you didn't disagree with me in both cases. We both said it would be a very bad idea to nerf healers by increasing timers and mind cost and/or reducing the effectiveness of heals. Well, maybe I was reading your sarcasm wrong, but I didn't think you were serious when you said, "Lets take more emphasis away from GROUPS and put more on SOLO."
Healers need a nerf because they are overpowered. (Well, it certainly turned into an overpowered thread...I guess we can't entertain a thought without necessarily accepting it 
)
Here's an FAQ for ya guys:
Q: Why do Healers need a damage reduction mod and/or a defense reduction mod?
A: Healers are overpowered. They need to be brought into balance somehow. The idea of damage reduction mods and/or defense reduction mods allows this to happen without crippling a healers ability to actually heal.
Q: How do you know healers are overpowered?
A: Every competitive PvP and every competitive solo-PvE template includes at least some healer.
Q: Why are they overpowered? Shouldn't the skillpoint cost prevent that from happening?
A: In theory, it should. However, in practice it doesn't even come close. With cross-weapon specials and general speed/accuracy mods it is easy to craft a completely functional bare-bones template (That is proficient with a type of weapon, includes at least two high-damage specials, and includes a knockdown, root, snare, and/or a mez) with plenty of skillpoints to spare. The choice is then between extra speed, accuracy, and defense mods, extra crowd-control specials, or healing. For PvP or solo-PvE, healing is always the best choice here. There needs to be some reason not to choose healing when it comes down to that decision.
Q: Wouldn't just moving the majority of healing up to the master boxes fix the problem?
A: No. A bare-bones ranged template like the one above still has room for Master Combat Medic. In addition, the profession of Combat Medic includes much more than just healing. It is one of the most effective crowd-control professions in the game, so people that now only have CM4000 would just trade in whatever they were using their skillpoints on for the excellent crowd control in the other branches of the profession. Additionally, doing this would further hinder melee professions as they do not have a pre-req in common with a healer profession, so fitting Master Doctor (or especially MCM) into a bare-bones melee template would be near impossible. Also, not that anyone really cares, but shifting the healing into the master box for jedi would mean making the profession much less interesting as far as variety of templates goes.
I probably forgot something, but I'll be sure to do another FAQ if I need to.
Message Edited by TheOtherDude on 07-20-2005 04:01 PM
Message Edited by TheOtherDude on 07-20-2005 06:12 PM
Thatguyfubu wrote:
Ok I do have to disagree with the original poster here. I was a MBH / MRifle / Pistol 0404. Then switched to MCM / MRifles / Pistol 0404, and now I am MCM / MPistols / Doc 0004. I have personal experince with all these situations and I know the ins and outs for playing the damage dealer and healer. First off let me tell you that high accuracy and high defense play a major factor in PvP and PvE. With my first template I had a ranged accuracy with a rifle of over 320. I was able to take down some Jedi in as little as 3 hits. Now just by simply switching MBH to MCM using the same weapon and the same special get roughly 500 points less damage per shot. I also take a lot more damage per shot but that is ok becuase I can heal myself the difference. If you try to tell me that a damage dealer won't use duelers stance then I guess you have never really played this template at all. Now as far as others in my group with healing abilities, yes everyone in my group either has 1300+ stim-d or medic or one line in doc or cm. However I am still the primary group healer, and you know what during very large PvP fights or high end PvE I am glad they have healing abilities to help me out in a crunch or even to heal me when I get the aggro. Also there are many times when I intentionally take the aggro becuase I know I can heal myself faster then trying to heal 8 other people. If I see everyone in my group taking a lot off damage I will run in there and hit and area heal to get the aggro, concentrate on healing myself and let them take down the mob without needing to waste a combat cycle on a heal or getting an incap.
So before you go saying that something is overpowered or not needed anymore, step back and look at the whole picture and not just a peice of it. Yes it is true that a Doc 4000 can heal better than a MCM but you know what they can't debuff, and they can't hit for as much damage as pure combat professions.
Also if you find that as a primary healer your not needed to heal as much maybe you need to find some additional skills that might help the group, reason I went pisoleer was for the nice specials they get to compliment the CM debuffs.
So you tested that a difference of 55 Accuracy made a 500point difference in the damage you dealt? What percentage difference is that? Andthat number'sbefore armor reduction, right? What special were you using? What was the min and max damage on the weapon? What were you shooting? Sorry for all the questions, but your infoseems togo against all the testing I've done
In case you didn't see, Isaw 190 Accuracy making a difference of about 12%at the most. In some situations, the 190 extra accuracy made absolutely no difference in the damage Idealt.
Zimal wrote:
healers are a part of them game... it is designed for them to be needed
so sorry your biggest point for your idea to happen is null and void
this game is not designed not to have any healing... sorry not gonna happen
also... your idea to compensate for healing being over powered is stupid...
sorry but i had to say it sooner or later... it's plain stupid....
what you sudgest is to instead of reducing the healing amounts...
give 'HEALERS' a percent reduction in all outgoing damage
also have a flat percent Increase on damage incoming
ok... this is already in place... it's called accuracy and defenses
instead of any of the ideas you sugest how about this...
decrease the amount healed at current 4000 CM/Doc leave Master healing alone....
ok congrats you just solved the overpowered issue
A: No. A bare-bones ranged template like the one above still has room for Master Combat Medic. In addition, the profession of Combat Medic includes much more than just healing. It is one of the most effective crowd-control professions in the game, so people that now only have CM4000 would just trade in whatever they were using their skillpoints on for the excellent crowd control in the other branches of the profession. Additionally, doing this would further hinder melee professions as they do not have a pre-req in common with a healer profession, so fitting Master Doctor (or especially MCM) into a bare-bones melee template would be near impossible. Also, not that anyone really cares, but shifting the healing into the master box for jedi would mean making the profession much less interesting as far as variety of templates goes.
Message Edited by TheOtherDude on 07-20-2005 04:30 PM
Message Edited by TheOtherDude on 07-20-2005 04:32 PM
Message Edited by TheOtherDude on 07-20-2005 06:11 PM
TheOtherDude wrote:
Healers need a nerf because they are overpowered.
Dude, sounds like you're a disgruntled jedi. You want uber healing, but want all of your opponents to die a painful death at your hands because you don't deserve to lose. The reason why you lose is cause those you fight heal themsellves. The reason why you don't have such good healing is cause you spent all your skill points in LS and defender trees and since you don't have enough points to become highly advanced in the healing arts, you simply think it's unfair. I think you're silly. If you want good healing then go and get some. If you don't want it, that's your perogative as well, but don't crap on all those players that want to stay alive in a fight, especially a fight against you!
you know what.... after all of this discusion...
I have come to the conclusion of it's not worth my time
so in closing i say this
if your going to do it to those with healing... do the exact same thing to the jedi healing tree
That way healers don't get a penalty to other areas of their template and can still perform their role just as well.
I think spreading out the modifiers within a profession, instead of keeping them localized to trees will make masteries of a profession more worth while and would reduce the effectiveness dramatically of people dabbling in healing.
First off, I'm no jedi. As a matter of fact, one of my characters is a bounty hunter.
Also,from the first post of this thread on I've always maintained that the damage/defense reduction mod would apply to Jedi Healer, too.
da-bro wrote:
I think a solution to these issues would be to decrease the effectiveness of heals when used on yourself. Perhaps reduce the effectiveness by 50% when used on yourself.
That way healers don't get a penalty to other areas of their template and can still perform their role just as well.
I think spreading out the modifiers within a profession, instead of keeping them localized to trees will make masteries of a profession more worth while and would reduce the effectiveness dramatically of people dabbling in healing.
That idea sounds very nice. Combined with spreading healing throughout the healerprofession, that idea sounds almost perfect. As I stated earlier, though, I'm still hesitent about spreading the healing abilitythroughout the profession because of the way it further hinders the already underpowered melee professions. However, with your idea I think requiring the use of those extra skillpoints would do just enough to bring healing into balance. The 50% number you suggest seems about right.
Here are some of the reason I think it would be better than a damage/defense reduction mod:
1) There wouldn't be a point in the grind when you actually gained a skill and become less effective.
2) The new combat system is about mixing and matching, and a damage/defense reduction mod goes against that.
3) In group tactics, your idea would make keeping aggro off the healer important. This is an important and interesting aspect of typical MMO group combat that is currently lacking in SWG. A damage/defense reduction mod does nothing to correct this issue.
Here are some of the reasons I think a damage/defense reduction mod would be better:
1) It would prevent group healers from also playing the role of damage dealer. It may just be my experience in other MMOs, but it just seems terribly wrong to me that a group healer can deal anywhere near the damage of a dedicated damage dealer.
2) It would discouragedabblingin healer. As a dedicated healer, the less my group can heal themselves the more important and fun my job is. Don't get me wrong, I like how Instant Stims help to balance PvP for non-healers, and I like how they can be used in emergencies (though I wouldn't mind seeing them fix Ruby Bliel), but I wish the ability for non-dedicated healers in my group would stop there.
Right now, if I had to chose between a damage/defense reduction modor a reduction in healing power whenthe healer heals himself, I'd go with the reduction in healing power when the healer heals himself. They both have their advantages anddisadvantages, but da-bro's idea seems to mesh a lot better with the way the game is setup.
TCWolffe wrote:
you wanna come in here and ask for us to get nerfed? reduction in damage output? We administer specials that do that, not take one overall just for picking the profession!!! How about if we reduce the TK ability to survey as an artisan....or reduce the smuggler's ability to entertain if they choose to do that?
Indeed, the fact that a damage/defense reduction mod doesn't mesh very well with the rest of the combat system is one of its weaknesses. However, the way I see it, desperate times call for desperate measures. That is, until I saw da-bro's idea. I think his plan would accomplish many of the same goals while being less disruptive to the combat system. Check his post out.
For the rest of your post, I'll just refer you to the FAQ:
Q: Why are they overpowered? Shouldn't the skillpoint cost prevent that from happening?
A: In theory, it should. However, in practice it doesn't even come close. With cross-weapon specials and general speed/accuracy mods it is easy to craft a completely functional bare-bones template (That is proficient with a type of weapon, includes at least two high-damage specials, and includes a knockdown, root, snare, and/or a mez) with plenty of skillpoints to spare. The choice is then between extra speed, accuracy, and defense mods, extra crowd-control specials, or healing. For PvP or solo-PvE, healing is always the best choice here. There needs to be some reason not to choose healing when it comes down to that decision.
And by the way, I see why you wouldtake issue with the way I disregarded some of the smalldifferences in the post where I examined the Healer and Non-healer templates. I did indeed skim past them inmy comentary (perhaps that's why Brain had such a problem with them, too), but you'll notice that the smallest of differences are accounted for in my finalnumbers.