Combat Medic Archive
Thread: Non-CM thoughts on nerf cries
but you dont get it as soon as i poison i'm in battl,e healing lag is there, so theres at least 10 seonds before i can lauch that disease. alright lets sayi'm the cm not buffedand have 1100 health, doesnt have anything but ranged support, is using a cdef pistol. you are a novice marks man with pitols four, i launch poison you immediatly start spammin health shots.
imp1 wrote:Screams of nerf your toy is better than mine is always so amusing. I agree that there are a few issues of extended range and always hitting that need addressing but these are minor issues.If CM is so overpowered why do all the kids play TKM and not combat medic? TKM is certainly not a fun class.. knockdown/dizzy ....yawn...it just requires little effort to become high powered.Your to keep the flames to a minimum, i have mastered all the combat and medical classes and see weakness and strengths in all of them. Minor tweaks to classes are acceptable but nerfing acheives nothing but divert the bitterness and envy to the next class.
This IS a joke...right? TKA in serious PvP is absolute TRASH. It might pwnz all the nubs having a TEF war in Anchorhead, but thats about it. Maybe if you dont know how to get up from a dizzy kd it is also a problem, but again, good players can. As it stands right now, PvP is more or less all Rifleman/Doctors or Rifleman/Combat Medics. Rifle because it targets mind through armor very well, Combat Medic because it can eliminate entire groups of buffed players fast, and Doctor since it can cure poison.
Pharmacy Wars...very fun
I'll respond here to each criticism of what I said proposed by Gnuut:
1) Why not? When we complain about lack of defenses in the CM profession you nerfherders tell us to pick up a profession that has defenses....
A) Who cares about your defenses? CM is a support profession anyway. Who needs defenses when you don't even have to be in range of a weapon in order to lay down a disease/poison (potentially) that's stronger than any other in PvP?
2) Doctors have no business getting one of our abilities as har as AE healing goes. If anyone deserves an AE cure it is clearly the CM. They alone are supposed to be the best combat healer yet they can only heal 5 out of 13 types of combat damage.
B) So now instead of Doc being the only way to defend against this profession you want CM to be the only real defense against CM? When do you need heavy duty healing other than in combat? Don't you think a pure doctor should heal for more and more adequately than a CM? What are you talking about? Frankly, CM doesn't deserve anything more, what I propose is adding abilities to defend against poison/disease which is not too big of a deal. Doctors getting innoculation vs. Poison/disease would be wonderful but I'd rather have some sort of food that gives immunity.
3) Then die since you refuse to conform. Get mind buffs to increase the rate of your regen. Take off that armor you hold dear in order to keep your Willpower high enough to offset the poison tic. Just because you refuse to make a sacrifice in order to solve the problem, doesn't mean we deserve a nerf.
C) You're telling me that 250 willpower is gonna do **edit** vs. a 1400 point mind DoT? You really think it's fair for every pure combat player to adjust their template to pick up doc just so you can keep an overpowered feature that is indefensible without it? 250 points of willpower will do JACK **edit** to help me vs. a good disease/poison combo. Also, it is not fair to ask someone to pick up another class to deal with one method of attack, anyone should be able to defend against something so powerful.
4) Not all of us tumbled our way through our profession. Any combat profession can be mastered in 5 days of casual play. I know because I mastered TKA 5 days. Then once I surrendered TKA I went on to rifleman and that took a whole 5 days. Whether it be 5 hours or 5 day difference it doesn't really matter since XP in this game is a joke. ANYONE can macro their way to Master in ANY class. Hell Jedi are doing it.
I posted these suggestions before and maybe if you read through them you would see not all CMs crave ultra dominant power in our class...
D) True, not every CM did it this way, and I agree with you that XP is kind of a joke in this game. In order to blaze through a combat profession, though, you have to be at your keyboard (unless you spend days and days and days AFK, I'm not particularly familiar with how to do this efficiently to master) plus you have to be buffed and actively participating in combat. As a COMBAT medic you don't even have to be in combat in order to lvl, and also, the difference between 5 days (although TKA took me 2) and 5 hours is quite substantial.
However, this is beside the point: The point is that the only template I see comboed with CM is doctor that does not have a pure combat profession added on to it. I'm sorry, but I would gladly trade +50 ranged/melee defense for the ability to kill a player in 20 seconds if there's not a doc around.
You SHOULD get combat defenses, you SHOULD get combat support abilities, and you SHOULD be able to heal. I wouldn't even have a problem if you guys got DoTs that maxed at 300 damage. I mean, that puts disease/poison DoTs in line with EVERY OTHER DAMAGE TYPE IN THE GAME. Sorry, but 300 to the mindpool every 10 seconds with an AoE is quite substantial. However, 1400 every 10 seconds is unbalanced and should be FIXED, not NERFED, FIXED.
10 seconds: TKA - 1500 mind hit, 75% reduction - 375, 80% kinetic reduction - 75 damage to the mind * 10 = 750 damage add synthsteak into the mix that turns into 450 (40% synthsteak).
10 seconds: CM - no doc, 1400 damage to mind.
Anyone see a problem? With something like Rifleman that number in the case of TKA gets bigger. I'd like to see a maxed out rifleman using an Ion rifle do 1400 damage in 10 seconds against 40% stun armor though.
No matter, a combat support profession should not be the backbone of PvP damage output, it's that simple. TKM has to be in your face, CM can be 110m away and still be accurate.
Also, I would like to point out at this time that CM gets almost as much Terrain Negociation as a Ranger. So, let's not talk about defenses and stat increases that make no sense because CM profits from being able to run like a **edit** away from a TKA. CM makes PvP in this game a joke.
I know this has its problems (even though it is realistic), but it would be very funny to see this happen
cactircuddly wrote:
Make AE poison/disease effect EVERYONE in the area... not just the enemy. No one has gasmasks in this game, so therefore, if a chemical weapon was thrown amongst a group of people every tom, **edit**, and harry will be poisoned. If a CM throws a poison at someone who is 10m away, and the poison radius is 15m... guess what?... the CM just poisoned himself along with his adversary.
Goldenstar10 wrote:/sigh another nerf crying 12 year-old.
why not cry about commados and bhs that can burn, incap and kill you in two ticks. or swordsman who can solo giant dune kimos. or tkm who can do any type of damage KD blind stun dizzy, and more. or even riflemans whom i'm geussing you have the same gripe as you do with cms about that they can do damage to an unhealable pool. or pikeman who have lances that can poison disease every pool. it seems to me your just jealous because we have a profesion thats just stronger and has better advantages than you. SO STOP TROLLING AND BEING A NERF-CRYER.
Please dont compare pikeman lances with the rest as you did. Yes the exceptional loots can be uber at times but its not like every pikeman has one. After killing a 1000 or so NS i finally got my NS lance with a mind poison good enough for pvp and its far from exceptional. The rest i have looted arent good for any thing.
I can swear I saw the same topic, and I mean very exact topic every week at least once. I amhonestly, sick of this any other profession forum has at least some usefulness to it. Our has NOTHING, but a bunch people crying to nerf us or fix our so called broken profession.
Please people just keep it to one post, we can call it the official rant/nerf post.
Padtai wrote:
RESPONSE: Tat fibre is not always availabe,......and I"m pretty sureLok wheat isn't either..though they do spawn frequently. I thinkyou are trying to say that the advanced resources for combat poisons are extremely rare spawns so they could not be mass produced the way buffs are. Perhaps that is true...but it does seem as if on my server there are players who have gathered enough of these "rare" seldom available materials to mass produce and sell at least small crates of poisons. It may take a few more months for someone to have a good supply on the advanced CM poisons...but then, they can always make the nonadvanced poisons...as you said...its not the best quality but its always available.
Tat Fiberplast is always available. It is a planet specific resource. There is always some type of Lokian Wheat available. There is always some type of Talusian Water and Dantooine Berry. Domesticated Oats are always available on one planet or another. Their is always Herbivore and Avian meat. There is always some form of HQ Organic and Inorganic.The stats on these resources might be crap at one time or another but they are ALWAYS AVAILABLE. Add to this that Docs have marketable value whereas CMs do not and you can see compared to CMs, Docs have it easy.
Response: You seem to have missed my point and got caught up in little details of my examples. I was trying to say that the amount of work that goes into making a weapon should not be the only determining factor of how much damage the weapon does. So my example was that a krayt FWG is not as strong as a FT...and you tell me there is no way it could be b/c of how krayt improvements work since they only improve max damage not mini damage. But a krayt fwg is still more work to make than a basic FT isn't it? If you argue that CM is more work than other classes, therefore it should do more damage, then I think you also have to argue that any weapon that gets something as hard a krayt enhancement ought to do both min and max damage more than the ordinary version. of any other weapon..even if the weapon we're talking about comparing is a kraytpistol versus a flame thrower without enhancements.
No our argument is not that CM poisons should do more damage than current weapons but that they should simply do more damage than they currently do. You don't have to deal with a disposable weapon like we do. Rocket Launchers while disposable and expensive, do alot of damage to offset their cost. Rocket Launchers can also be purchased with faction points.
Ok you convinced me that the CM skill trees themselves are more combat oriented. However, I guess I was including all the medic you must master to be a CM....b/c that is how most CM's argue. Its a common complaint of CM's that they have to master a novice profesion and a elite and pick up a line in marksman (and therefore, they ought to do more damage)...when TKA for exp requires much less skill expenditure....In this very thread someone has argued that..go up and see ....Nowmost of those "extra" points that CM complain about are not combat oriented. So while I'll give you that the CM trees themselves aremore combat than healing...they still are not as combat oriented as other combat classes...with the exceptions of squad leader and CH..which I'm not sure how to compare to the others for how much damage they should do.
A Master BH is not considered any less a combat class because they worked on Rifle skills and no longer use them as a BH. Nor do they truly use any of the scout skills they took as a prereq. Commandos and smugglers hardly use the unarmed line of skills unless they take some TKA skills. You see my point?
Grau'din wrote:
Tat Fiberplast is always available. It is a planet specific resource. There is always some type of Lokian Wheat available. There is always some type of Talusian Water and Dantooine Berry. Domesticated Oats are always available on one planet or another. Their is always Herbivore and Avian meat. There is always some form of HQ Organic and Inorganic.The stats on these resources might be crap at one time or another but they are ALWAYS AVAILABLE. Add to this that Docs have marketable value whereas CMs do not and you can see compared to CMs, Docs have it easy.
Response:(1) No in point of fact just b/c something is a "specific planet resource", it does not always spawn. There are times when tat fibre and lok wheat do not spawn..not for very often, maybe just a few days and certainly not months like titatnium or eleton...but just so you know, it does happen. But of course, yes these things are generallythough*not* ALWAYS available...
(2) But I'll repeat myself b/c you ignored this....CM's can ALWAYS make lower level poisons too...they may not be as good as the upper level ones...but isn't that the same thing you were saying...that docs/ws can use bad resource spawns.. and if it means that the buffs the doc makes come out around 500 pt bases...well...no one is realy going to want the 1k buff for PVP when their oponent has a 2k one.I think the same is probably true of CM--no one wants to make poisons with nonadvanced components b/c those won't do enough damage. So the end result is the same--people have to wait.
(3) I never said that Docs have it harder than CM...and what does that have to do with anything anyway? I mentioned Doc b/c I'm familiar with how it goes for Docs...and I said that just as Doc's seem to have created a steady supply of buffs, that CM's can create a steady supply of poisons by stocking up when spawns hit. At least on my server, there are people who go into the med/combat med store buisness and churn out enough poisons so that other players can pick up CM and never worry about crafting.... perhaps its a smaller and less lucrative market than buffs, but it exists.
Grau'din wrote: No our argument is not that CM poisons should do more damage than current weapons but that they should simply do more damage than they currently do. You don't have to deal with a disposable weapon like we do. Rocket Launchers while disposable and expensive, do alot of damage to offset their cost. Rocket Launchers can also be purchased with faction points.
RESPONSE:Excuse me, but that is *your* argument. I have seen other CM's state exactly the point I was arguing against. And *their* argument is that CM's should do more damage than other professions. But even if you are arguing for more damage not the most...how much more damage do you want? Where do you think your damage out put should be?
As for your comment that I dont' have to deal with a disposable weapon...ahem, you dont' know what class I fight as.....All I said was that I played a doc....which has no weapon.I think what you were trying to say, is that CM weapons do not last very long therefore the cost per attack per damage done is much higher for CM than other classes. That's a matter of fact that I cannot even begin to analyze....but Im sure that can be easily done and should be done by the developers.
By the way.. I always play around with my combat skills.... I've done CM before and it is a very easy one for me to do.(you get paid for buffing, so you get paid for earning CM exp). Everything i say is from the perspective of a once and future CM
not from someone seeking to nerf CM into oblivion so I can PVP without a doc around. After all, I *am* playing a doc, and I dont' really PVP.
Now back to the discussion....If its true the cost per attack per damage is higher for CM right now, I'm still not convinced this should dictacte how much damage a CM should be doing after the combat balance comes in. Maybe it means the cost shoud go down to reasonable levels, not that the damage should come up.This could happen by allowing more uses per pack, more spawns of resources, perhaps raising the damage done by poions made with non-adv. components. But this is a point the dev's should think about when they rebalance the professions.
Gau'din wrote: A Master BH is not considered any less a combat class because they worked on Rifle skills and no longer use them as a BH. Nor do they truly use any of the scout skills they took as a prereq. Commandos and smugglers hardly use the unarmed line of skills unless they take some TKA skills. You see my point?
No I don't see your point. The common argument is that b/c CM spend more sp's to master CM than other professions, that CM ought to do more damage tha those other professions (like TKM). Again you may not be arguing that...but people do say it. So I pointed out that most of the prequesitie SPsCM's spend are on healing skills, not on fighting ones. I would argue the same for Smugglers who have only one pure combat line in their elite class, though they do have to pick up two novice fighting classes to get there.
But to address what you are saying, it doesn't matter that Commando's rarely use unarmed skills...they still have them and there may be times strategically when they *do* use them. Besides, from the perspective of thinking of skills as things you actually learned and not just boxes filled by afk actions.... then you could say a Commando knows how to do both melee and ranged fighting, and therefore knows how to accurately cut through defenses of both styles to do more damage. This would justify a Commando being devastating in terms of damage..
now look at a CM... they know something about ranged fighting from novice marksman ranged support...but not a whole lot more. So what about their prerequistie would make them *better fighters*?
This is true of BH too--scout doesn't improve your fighting...so I would think Commando's should outdamage BHs....but you can see all this leads back to the fact that professions are not very well balanced at the moment.
I'm not sure why throwing punches and being a martial arts expert should allow you to cure diseases and poisons the way TKA's can. Perhaps theyought to be required to pickup novice medic or master medic...or lose some of that healing power they have. But that's another discussion...
I'm certainly not calling fora TKA or BH nerf....but I am in favor of the Dev's taking a look at all of the classes as a whole and not just tinkering with whichever one at the moment is drawing the most fire.
To make something balanced, you need to look at the overall system, not just any one class. And if you are trying to balance, you also need some idea of where you think different classes should rank in terms of their fighting styles and damage output and defenses, and yes, I'd agree, the cost per attack/damage. These are the things I hope the dev's address... and I hope at the end of it, there are are a fair set of trade offs to choose one class over another... one that leads people to choose a variety of classes with no one class being the clear winner in terms of being the most bang for the buck.