Combat Medic Archive
Thread: Might not do any good, but here's a petition to get CM poison changed...
Sorry, have to call BS on your claim. Poisons DO NOT have instant ticks ... doesn't happen.
Maybe there was server lag & you just didn't see the person(s) that incapped you ... but I know this, it wasn't Casper the Poisoning Ghost as you are claiming.
If you want to get a class nerfed, please at least stay to facts that are at least 10% realistic.
... kids
TK1210GT wrote:
Yes, indeed,it was poison. I saw it right on my screen. I had been poisoned and incapped at the same moment. There was no 8 second tick I can tell you that for sure because I was paying VERY close attention to my ham bars. I got incapped as did everyone else around me at the same exact time. And there was no poison on my ham bars right before my incapp.
Also, there wasn't anyone closer than 85m from the other faction near me at the time. In fact, the closest was 89m.
I was tabbing through enemies to find the closest one and that's how I know for sure. All the other enemies were over 100m away.
Point is: I was incapped with a 0 tick time, from over 85m away. Call it an exploit, call it unfair, call it something but I think something needs to be done about this. You cannot tell me that someone can throw a poison further than I can shoot my pistol. That's insane. Now, perhaps because it was a PVP battle with a lot of people around that it was a lag issue and that's why I didn't get 8 seconds. But if that is the case, the DEVS need to look into this to find some kind of rememdy.
Epani
Took me awhile to decideif I should even respond to this. I have never seen a poison that will take a person even out in 8 seconds unless they already have low mind(or are stupid enough to pvp with around a 500 base mind). Anyway, get your facts strait before you come complaining about someone else's class.
The pool is the problem here, not the method of attacking it. Nuff said on that.
As a near master pistoleer/MCM, I use a LOT of health poision. I don't care what kind of medic you are. If I am fortunate enough to get the AoE and direct poisions to stick, I have the potential to put FOUR, count 'em FOUR health DoTs on you while pounding you with bodyshot from my Krayt pistol. Heal THAT!
As you can see, I am not one of those "sling it and run" types of COMBAT Medic and I don't carry a rifle so mind poision just doesn't help me out much. I will do AoE mind poisions for the sake of riflemen and BHs in my party but in small skirmishes, I lay on the health.
If 20 people in your group get poisioned by ONE AoE, you deserve it for being so tactically challenged. I make **edit** good poision and I am lucky If I get5 or 6to stick in a group.
At any rate, leave poisions alone and fix the HAM.
And to set the record straight. My mind pool is 899 and that is what it was last night when I was instantly incapped.
Epani
TK1210GT wrote:
person who incapped me with poison knows of an exploit.
Why is it called skill when a Combat class kills a Combat Medic in PVP but an Exploit when the CM turns around and kills them back?
Kumi,
While it's certainly possible I'm mistaken I believe the original poster is a TKA/Doc, not a CM.
Unless of courseyou're shocked at my response on the bottom of page 1. I'm not calling for a nerf, but rather some acceptance of a few demonstrable realities:
1. Wedon't *have* to have LOS. Stand in the basement of the cantina in Anchorhead or the 2nd floor med center in Coronet and fire up and down without LOS...no z-axis checks. It's in for x and y but not z. Love to be proven wrong here.
2. 35-45m range is completely wrong. I can throw at 86m, 20m beyond any other class in this game (not counting powerups).
3. You do *not* have to stop and watch the animation unless you choose to. The throw an animation are asynchronous (though should not be). Try standing at the end of a long 'corridor' in Coronet. As enemy comes near strafe and throw...you can be behind the building and out of reprisal LOS when your animation is going. Now is that just something I see cient side and i'm vulnerable server side? Could be, but when I've got a range 20m beyond anyone else, I could spare the time if I wanted to. Is this a bug that must be fixed? Probably not, but it should point out that the delay on our poisons is an abject liability only if you wanna walk 10 paces and have a 'fight like a man' shootout.
The notion of docs putting out poisons and disease is a tired, weak, weary, worn out argument that has about 20% truth and 80% spin. Do commandos have an intended counter for their flamethrowers? No. Do CMs? Yes, the doc. Is the doc an effective counter for the CM? No, not in AOE space, and Kave's recent post alluded to the fact that the Devs recognize this(like point blank AOE cures wtih a 6m radius). That post, in Mraugh's thread on this forum about Post Patch poison cures should really end this 'get a doc' card for right now.
I play both Doc and CM...and while I spend a lot of time playing dedicated healer, my heart in a CM camp, just as soem other MD/MCMs lean towards doc. I don't want us nerfed into oblivion, honestly don't. But I will notblindly turn away from the bugs within our class that allow a minority to demean the profession as a wholeand reduce enjoyment for all players. Nor will I mindlessly pound on the taido drums chanting 'we're broken', or defiantly proclaim no nerfs until we get more power (Adv RC and AOE Disease).
The notion that some of our ranks might call our power into question, I would submit is a measure of our maturity, not weakness. That we might discuss the appropriateness of certain weapons in our arsenal and actually talk about resolution is a measure of our love for the game and this profession in the long run.
That we might instigate questions doesn't shock me at all. On the contrary, puts a smile on my face to see that those who did take the road less travelled did so for the right reasons.
Jacore MD/MCM
I do not believe in 0 tick instant incap. Nor do i justify your claim. What I am thinking is that it might have been a combination of lag and an invisible CM.
Yes, invisible. I have had this happen to me 3 different times now. I am not sure if it is the server or the client. I had a friend of mine standing right next to me and I did not see them on my screen. If he wound /say anything It did not appear on my screen nor in my spatial. Yet on his screen he can see himself and me standing there and also see what I was saying. He was a Novice medic and healed my wounds yet on my screen it showed that I still had them and onl his screen I was fully healed.
They way this was fixed was that I relogged and poof he was standing next to me and I was in fact fully healed. I have had this happen to me 3 times now. Not the healing part but I have been standing next to a friend and not seen them. I have also been on the other side of this while standing directly in front of a guild member they telling me in tells that she could not see me. She relogged and saw me again.
I being a medic have also had a situation that i would heal someone and not see their HAM bars heal at all. I threw 4 area Cs at a friend and their HAM bar did not move at all. being out of combat I relogged and saw that they were perfectly healed of damage.
Like I said i'm not sure if this is a lag issue, a server issue, or a client issue. But I bet this is what happened to you.
1) So is this what all Combat Medics do? They wait till the fight gets to the cantinas and med centers (taboo to begin with) and start to throw. For that matter I was able to fire my pistol through the ceiling in the cantina without a problem either. Nearly ALL of the battles I have been a part of took place in open areas. Theed courtyard, Moenia starport, Anchorhead hills, etc...
2) 35-45m range is NOT incorrect. I was in a large PVP fight last night. When I had a person targeted that was over 50m the system told me "Target is out of range". This is something I run head first into all the time. If you managed to heal/poison a target at 80m then I may need to see a screenshot of this. Maybe this has something to do with being a doc/CM.
3) Next time you are in a fight (thinking of the range I have been dealing with) run towards the group you are fighting and throw the poison. Yes, the effect is instant. My point is that you cannot continue to run when the toss happens. You are forced to stop and throw. During these seconds the enemy can fire at you.
4) The point I am trying to make with the docs is that there is a cure. It does exist. However ineffective it is.
5) You have to agree with me that certain aspects of out profession ARE indeed broken. Do they need to be fixed? Not really I have good time as it is. Diseases are more of a grief tool than an effective combat weapon. The few times I have used those were for those people that think its funny to incap and keep you incapped till the 3x rule kills you. Go ahead keep me incapped while I watch you ROT! We worked hard and spent a great deal of time getting chars that can do the kind of damage that we dish out. Even docs recogize the amount of healing/crafting needed to become a Master Doc. With the Combat Medic add to that the 30,550 Combat Experience needed to reach the Novice CM level.
I am not "beating the drum" so to speak to say that we ought to be stronger. The fact is we dont get to to see the true power of our profession till we hit the Master level. Till then we are just ranged stim machines. many folks don't have the patience for that. Do we need to be nerfed? No. We need our sister profession (doctors)to actually be able to counter what we can do. We have NEVER been the flavor nor do I think we ever will be.
I agree we as Combat Medics are mature in everyway. I have actually had excellent conversations with what were enemy CMs after a fight is done. While other professions flame at each other I actually have taken the time to heal up a fellow CM.
We have seen what nerfing has done to other professions like creature handlers and droid engineers. The nerfing has not stopped since. Can we at least ask to be fixed before we ask to be nerfed?
Kumi,
I have no intention of this becoming personal (nor am I implying that you are), but please let's look closely at the statement you made in your original post:
...There are certain checks that we CMs have to abide. Must have line of sight, be within a 35-45m range of our target...
Now hereI have taken liberty to emphasize certain imperative words that set the tone of this statement. In them you will see an extrapolation of your personal experience (delineated in point 2 of the second post) to defineset rules for the class as a whole which just do not currently exist.
With regard to #1, I don't suggest that all CMs do it, or that I do it (I certainly do not). However the presence of the bug invalidates the unqualified representation that LOS must exist for either singles or AOE. They do not currently in either case (though no LOS on AOE beween original target and aoe targets is not a bug).
With regard to #2, please refer to the following detailed post of all materials/stats/process leading to a slight variant of the poison I used in my initial reply:
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=combat_medic&message.id=10435&highlight=#M10435
Ifyou require a screenshot after that then I will try to accomodate you, but note during the replies of several other Master CMs the tacit acceptance of the data and results provided. Many Master CMs throw 60m+. It does have something to do with being a MD as well (10 exp points on subs), but you can get a MD to make these for you possibly. The major difference here is the quality of ingredients, which not only vary heavily by server, but are strongly dependent on the will of the CM to invest the time to find exceptional ingredients.
As to point 3, I accept the events as you have them laid out (I didn't always have the materials that provide the range i do now). However, if fairness, give the tactic I laid out a shot, and I think you will find the cost of that delay much less. Nonetheless, a delay of 6-8 sec is nothing in relation to a commando delay of 15sec on a flamethrower special. This point cannot be a valid argument of why we as a class cannot be examined for parts that may be overpowered before we complete our wishlist of non-implemented pieces.
4. I agree, a cure does exist in part with doctors. If that cure is regarded as only marginally effective against AOE (which I think you can infer to be in the dev's mindsfrom Kave's other post) then the usefullness of this argument is quite limited and mostly the spin thatI originally claimed it to be.
5. I definitely agree that certain aspects of our profession are broken. Beyond griefing/sidelining the major use for diseases right now is power-leveling medics and entertainers who feast on the wounds like vampires.
Yes we did work hard on our class...spent a lot of skill points...have some of the most demanding resource needs of any class. I agree with you on all of these points. However, these arguments support us having some power, but how much is some is the point of debate. They do not warrant us, or any class having either dominance (which some others think we have) or an exemption from balance examination until that which is imcomplete is fixed (what you want). Beingbroken in N areas does not exempt us from examination on others. That is the same logical fallacy as the BHs saying Eyeshot could not be nerfed in PvP because their marks were too difficult in PvE (and woudl be made worse off by the change).
Yes recent game history is littered with a string of nerfs to various professions like DE, CH, AT-STs, and pending BH (eyeshot). What you will find as the defining pattern in each of the above famed nerf cases was a lack of effective self-regulation among each of those constituencies leading up to it. What you will find is an army of cries from each of those professions devoutly defending their abilities and power as you are doing, citing woefully similar breaks, unimplemented fixes, and fingerpointing towards other classes as the real villian. You will find many heartfelt pleas and arguments of fix the breaks beforenerf. None of them were successful. None of them.
Don't think for a second that these ranges or resist stats will stand indefinitely. They will not. Can we ask for things to be fixed before they nerf? Sure. What should be rising here is not our deviance and resolve but rather our reasoning in crafting a proactive solution which may comprise several fixes that leave both us and the game better off overall.
Can we ask them to fix Adv RC and AOE Disease first? But before I jump on that bandwagon, do me a favor and read Kave's post in Mraugh's thread I pointed out earlier.There he's the messenger in relaying that devs basically admit there is no effective doc counter toCMs AOE right now. If that is the case, isn't it quite possible that the reason these 2 (ARC and AOE Disease)didn't get fixed already is because of that belief?
Isn't it possible, or even likely, that if the devs feel thedocs don't have an effective cure to AOE poison that they would choose to leave AOE Disease on the sidelines? Isn't it possible given that Advanced RCs would consciously be not fixed because doing so would anger more people than leaving them alone will (especially when they can provide things like terrain negotiation and fixes to ranged stimE to us)?
If it is, then we can either be part of that discussion and that solution, or we can can pull out our picket signs and adopt the same failed strategy of other classes.
Jacore MD/MCM, Tempest
Wow Jacore I had no idea!
I try to keep up with the forums as much as possible, but I had did not know that 80+ meters could be achieved! I always thought the distance is what kept us in check. The resources have not been nor have ever (from what I have read/seen) been on Gorath. Trust me I have looked and even hired Artisans to search with me.
Without having the means to create Advanced items for Combat Medic it is hard for me to argue the point without having seen the end result myself.
All of us CMs on Gorath are forced to use just high quality materials. Maybe this is how it should continue to be done. Just take away the advanced products.
**edit** Jacore, nice novel =P
The amount of time one needs to invest into becoming a MCM and gather the best resources for our poison and disease packs to be deadly is not by any means easy. I dont see a problem with our class atm. Id like them to fix Adv RC sometime this year though. And im not to happy about changing the requirements of our adv components to OQ and Decay only, simply because Decay stats suck bad on gas. =/
I have talked to several other people from last night's battle this evening and they also said the exact same thing happened to them in that they incapped immediately after being poisoned. Now let me say this...
1) I have no problem with CM's being able to poison.
2) I have no problem with an 8 second tick before incapp.
3) I have no problem with area poisons.
What I do have a problem with is instant incapping. Some of you say it just doesn't happen...well it is. Why is this happening? I don't know. But it was happening last night. Isit an exploit? Isit lag? Is this just some odd occurence? I don't know. But I can tell you this, that I would appreciate the devs looking into this. If they want to contact me privately for more details I'd b e happy to relay my experience.
As forthe 80m+ area poisons, I believe thistakes some of the fun of the game.We stand a better chance against an AT-ST than against a CM who's way outtafiring range throwing a poison at us. Heck, we even stand a better chance against a turret. Now, if this is the way it's supposed to be, I guess I'll just have to deal with it. But if poisons are supposed to be limited to the same or less distance to that of a pistoleer, rifleman, etc...then I think this situation needs to be looked at.
Nerf...don't nerf...whatever...