Combat Medic Archive
Thread: Master CM AoE Disease: What Should be Done about it?
But if the consensus here is, and it seems to be, that there isn't a problem with the effectiveness of the Poisons(nor will there be a problem with the Area Disease of MCM) then I sincerely hope you're ready to deal with the whiners.
vortexala wrote:
...there isn't a problem with the effectiveness of the Poisons...
Gah! posting on little-caffeine is bad... That should read as Diseases, not Poisons...meh
I think the largest problem right now is in getting consensus that we might actually have to deal with it at all...much less how to given that we do. The larger camp I think wants to adopt a wait and see approach, even though I would argue that I've seen it before.
The Imps used all manner of argument including SW lore to defend the status quo of AT-STs. Didn't work. Same with BH. They got off easy (and I hope we would too). Same with commandos though they don't haveSW lore to fall back on. They look to have size penalties on the big weapons and lose DOT on flamethrower all together coming for them. Same with CH.
The winds of reactive defense are 0 for 5, and we have no Star Wars justification for our powers. I have little hope that we'd make it 1 for 6. And no I don't think we're mad or crazy for talkign about it before it arrives. One interpretation of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. I would rather try to influence a river's course preemptivelythan try to stop it completely. Sandbags are remarkably useless to fill when the flooding is upon you.
Jacore
I don't typically complain about moves (like bleeding, knockdown (before the patch), blind, etc...) because we all die and get cloned and jump right back into battle But how can a dead person recloned have the disease considered fair? I kid you not, I had disease for over 35 minutes (as I was able to watch a whole t.v. show) and was incap 7 times after I died and recloned. Everyone in the med station was laughing at how silly it was. I am not a nerf crier but come on, can anyone of you really say it's fair? I say yes keep the wound damage up to the point you die but after you reclone there should not be any more damage and disease should go away. Also the possiblity of a only disease once per person thing like they did to Underhand and Fire Knockdown. Because if they don't fix this, then I promise you that there will be ton of people being combat medics just like there are now commandos. Just a thought
Cukova - IIA
Wanderhome
It's not, and it should be bugged AND fixed (did YOU bug it? I did, so should you).
"Doctor doctor my hand hurts when I move it like this!"
"Then don't move it like that..."
People seem to forget this is PVP, war gaming. That's the intent behind it. You do NOT have to contribute or join PVP in this game, yet you have the ability to do it virtually anywhere, if YOU want to. I sure don't like getting one hit by a Teras Kasi, or skewered by a pikeman. Not to mention head shot by a rifleman.
People are saying their are no counters or that downtime is to long. As was previously mentioned, any master entertainer can you get your mind ones healed in a few scant minutes, probably less than a minute for pure combat types. Good quality master wound packs from a master doctor heal wounds quickly. Disease and poison cures actually DO work.
Wounds are used to delay people from returning to the battle quickly. Or reducing their effectiveness if they do so anyway. It takes a master to cause horrible wounds that last a long time. It takes a master to counter those horrible wounds and return the soldier to the battle as quickly as possible.
Elimination of the CM is the prefered method of dealing with this situation. <in the battle folks> TEF needs to be looked at and probably repealed. Corpse recovery MUST be returned. It would stop the majority of Nerf calls.
I reiterate that recovering your corpse and the items on it is the most needed fix in this game. The no penalty death is becoming to expected by the whiners and really needs to be reinstated/fixed.
IMO disease/poison/bleed's should not carry on past death. Death not incap. It takes a very long time for a poison to restart after the recipient was incapped. More than long enough for a NOVICE medic to cure it. I have tested it, try it yourself in a non combat situation <AKA DUEL> No medic's.. no cures.. guess what.. you SHOULD die. However I agree it certainly should not remain past death. nor shopuld corpses be able to be diseased or poisoned. Nor should CM's be able to poison mobs and not gain aggro. Thats simply silly.
While it has not been mentioned here I do not think a CM should have revive. All classes need their exclusive area's, ours is AE and poisons, theirs Revive and powerful wound heals. I personally think their heals are to low.. or perhaps some of ours should be altered lower. <ducks>
I think the issues here is pretty related to the other Poisons thread we just had recently. I also agree that it is likely multiple issues rolled into one and until some of those issues are looked at we may not bea ble to get a clearer picture on exactly how AoE Diseases are going to come out.
Primarily we have to get DoTing of corpses removed. Second, Revenge TEF removal.
Both of those have already been brought up all over this thread.
However, it has been touched on here that the third problem is most likely Duration. The problem with duration, however, is probably not the actual DoT duration, but the Duration of the DoT ADDED to the Delay Timer Duration. That Delay Timer is wat is making that DoT look like it lasts forever by adding, in effect, and extra 5 minutes (admittedly of nothing happening other than seeing that you have the state) for every incap the victim takes. It also assures that your don't get 3 incaps in 10 minutes, at least not from the DoT, so you won't die from it, either.
SoI think we need to consider how to do something other than have the Delay Timer THEN wew can see what the AoE landscape looks like and see what, if anything, needs to be fixed at that time, IMHO.
So I think the inital options would be that a DoT reaching the point of incap causes insta-death. Probably way too pwoerful a skill, IMHO, as it would give CMs not only a form of ranged DB (like riflemen) but also afire-and-forget AoE form of DB. That's pretty strong mojo and probably not properly balanced.
The other option would be to only allow a DoT to incap, then go away. Your problem there is that the complaint everyone already has about people just killing themselves as a form of cure, is duplicated by just getting incapped instead. (At least with Death we have some assurances that Death will start to have more meaning at some point in the future and it will cost the victim something to actually die.) It devalues the Doc cures and would seem a pretty weak alternative overall.
I think the Delay Timer might have been the compromise. So what else can we come up with to fix this?
Something talked about a lot in conjunction with Mind Damage threads got me thinking, what if DoTs did not incap, but they could take you down to 1 (either wounds or damage, whatever). They would continue to tick, mind you, so even a heal would still have to deal with the continuous loss the DoT is performing, but the DoT istelf won't do the actual incap. Just 1 point of real damage would be needed to do that. The added side-benefit I see of this is that we'll finally be rid of the stupid no-loot/no-harvest bug when a DoT makes the killing blow in PvE, plus the victim can seek out help without having to deal with constantly falling down incapped. If this isn't strong enough, though, what about when it hits 0 it also forces the victim into a state, such as stunned or blind?
But what are the downsides? What am I missing with that idea?
What about other ideas?
Giving up the extra strength of my AoE poisons and diseases would be equivalent to taking away the ability ofImperials with the rank of privateto run around with 2 AT-ST's owning a town and hunting down novice artisans and commandos killing 10+ people with a flamethrower having their abilities taken away. I am one skill level away from MCM and I can say that the offensive benefits that people think we have are non-existent. Unless I am with a large group, and I am healing them full time (Area Stim B/C's on full time), not throwing poisons in any way, I die. Simple as that. I have been juggled by TKAs and Smugglers. The inability to fight back is no different, with the exception that you can get healed. I have seen many more people die of fire/bleeding than poisonEVER. Nevermind the fact that the poisons that everyone are talking about are insanely expensive/time consuming to make. Point is, the only way people will feel things are fair, for the most part, is if their particular career pathis more powerful thaneverybody elses. This is human nature. If you can not stand to be in a game with someone else who has a particularability that is a weakness to you, regardless of the fact that you can still kill them with 1-2 shots, do us all a favor and nerf the thing that needs fixing the most : your active account status.
Kirus, Combat Medic, Tempest Galaxy
not a bad idea Zarlor. I can see only letting them have 1 in a stat so they constantly dont do the kickin chicken. All right I did some thinking along those lines and here's a proposal. If a player gets reduced to where they would have been incapped by a poison then rather than incapping, they can no longer attack other players. Picture them in the advanced stages of the ebola virus. virtually helpless but can still move around. this way they can still leave the field of battle until they are cured, but can not make attacks against other player since they are too sick to even lift a weapon, swing a fist. Now, for the battle continuation issue, yes they can still be incapped by someone and DBed. This wouldnt have much effect in the current clone war so people that crave the continuous combat wouldnt be affected by this. I'm thinking along the lines of someone who was dueled, or who got caught in a raid or whatever. Like that other post about the guy who kept incapping over and over because no one would DB him.
pros of this is that the poisoned player can travel around to find a doc and not do the incapp flop all the time.
what would some cons be? Of course this would have to be tested extensively prior to being implemented or i'm sure there'd be some type of griefing potential.
This is the type of proposal I was hoping for, something we could throw out there whenever the whining begins. It's an idea I personally like because, even with a CDEF pistol, you can still kill the enemy.
Zarlor wrote:
Something talked about a lot in conjunction with Mind Damage threads got me thinking, what if DoTs did not incap, but they could take you down to 1 (either wounds or damage, whatever). They would continue to tick, mind you, so even a heal would still have to deal with the continuous loss the DoT is performing, but the DoT istelf won't do the actual incap. Just 1 point of real damage would be needed to do that. The added side-benefit I see of this is that we'll finally be rid of the stupid no-loot/no-harvest bug when a DoT makes the killing blow in PvE, plus the victim can seek out help without having to deal with constantly falling down incapped. If this isn't strong enough, though, what about when it hits 0 it also forces the victim into a state, such as stunned or blind?
But what are the downsides? What am I missing with that idea?
What about other ideas?
> still kill the enemy.
If you PvP:
In one-on-one battle most combat classes outdamage us, and in group-vs-group everyone targets CM first (or as soon as AOE is thrown), if ability for us to incap is removed, then there will be no benefit for us to PvP because everyone will DB us first, then deal with our DoTs - resulting in CM-always-dies gameplay. (think about it, how often does it happen theat you fall incapped right before someone you poisoned falls incapped ? To me it happens quite often, and I am either healed or get up myself WHILE my opponent is incapped).
The only way the solution will work is if person with poison is not allowed to DB (not even with 1 life/mind/action and poison, because then they will be able to DB as soon as their regen ticks in between poison ticks), but that would make us too overpowered.
Zarlor wrote:
I've heard that one as a common situation. One on One the CM goes down before their poison drops the other person, but the other person doesn't have enough time to DB the CM before they go down. Not sure about the numbers for these situations (or if we could even get some good ones) but it might be an argument for upping the power of DoTs a tad to get them op-par with being able to get in the incap before you get incapped in an otherwise even fight. (Where our extra Skill Point cost should give us that tiny edge.)
Actually I am more concerned about group combat, where I am going down 90% of the time after applying AOE poison, whoever with any kind of competen group mates I get healed and/or protected till the fight is over so I can benefit from that AOE poison giving victory to my group, in the proposed scenarion however I will die (as any one of those who would've been incapped will have enough time to get to me for DB)