Combat Medic Archive
Thread: Putting the combat back into combat medic-suggestions for CM support line (LONG)
last line should read...
there is no reason dots shouldnt be as powerful as they could be...
If the CM's only role in combat is to heal in the heat of battle, why do they have to get Ranged Combat Support Specialist to be a CM?
Right now, Doctor is a much more useful and effective profession in battle, simply because they can spend those 14 fairly useless points CM's spend on Ranged support on combat skills that are actually useful. The sheer power of their heals and the fact that they can rez is just icing on the cake.
Honestly, when I'm out in big groups, the combat medics that are with us aren't really any more effective than I am, and I'm just a regular old medic. If I stop at Master Medic and just go on to Master an eliteweaponprofession instead of taking CM like I'm planning, I'll be much more useful in battle to a group, because I can heal nearly as well as a CM and they can't hold a candle to me in a fight.
This makes no sense at all, especially when you consider the fact that to master something like Carbine or Rifle I don't even have to take Ranged Support (which CM's have to GRIND through).
Heck, I can take Master Medic, master an elite weapon profession, take a bunch of scout skills (explore III), and STILL have enough skill points left to take something like Entertainer or some Artisan skills. Then I'll be almost as good a healer anda much, much better fighter, plus I'll be able to serve the group (or myself) in other ways ormake myself some money selling crafted wares. All for the same cost.
So now, tell me again why this makes any sense at all?
Falin
I know you know it doesn't make sense. 
The post is directed at those who haven't thought it through like you have.
Falin
I think you should reread what you wrote, look at what a Combat Medic does and what a Doctor does. Although you do have some valid points, to me it looks like your being greedy. If your still lost afterwards I will break down everything you wrote and show you where the greed set in. Only thing out of that whole post you wrote that was right was that we need something added to the Combat Medic Support tree.
Disclaimer: Prepare for a long ramble. It makes sense in small junks but may not share a cohesive message. Sue me.
Ok, heres what I think. After reading all of this squabble about 29 wasted points, and there being no "combat," I have come to the conclusion that the term Combat Medic in itself is confusing you people. Before I address the major issue I have to write this down before I forget:
Who ever said a Doctor is better at healing in battle is a complete fool. (no insult intended) Doctors can only heal from 6 meters away. In most battles, the person who needs healing RIGHT NOW is more than 6 meters away. Doctors can only run so fast. Being able to heal anyone from anywhere for the same amount of damage makes the Combat Medic a far superior being for healing in combat. This is the purpose of the Combat medic class.
Now that that's out of the way, I believe that Combat Medic implies that you are a Medic who heals and can fight. Why else would we be called "Combat" medics? Because we are uber powerhouses that get knockdown in our skill trees? Yea right. We are Combat medics because we can equally cause damage, and heal damage. The devs wanted it this way, as we have to have some detication to fighting in order to even become a Combat Medit (lev 4 ranged support). I personally am going to get Pistoleer skills (already have novice pistoleer) so that I can defend myself in battle, and do damage if so called for. Not to mention that having pistoleer opens the way for Defense bonuses like Posture Change Down and Knockdown, as well as a knockdown skill itself. Your suggestions for point blank knockdown skill and a smugglers skill are out of line, as the Combat Medic tree purposesare healing, not damage. I don't see Doctor's asking for knockdown (I am saying this to prove a point. I have not checked to see if doctor's are asking for knockdown. If they are, sue me, and them).
I do agree with getting some Ranged Defense or Melee Defense bonuses somewhere within our skill trees. Because our existance is destined for combat, it only makes sense that we are better prepared for the combat situation without our own skill trees. This preparedness does not come in the form of Knockdown or a attack delay skill. Giving them to the combat medic makes exactly zero sense. The smugglers panic shot: "Dot's take time to tick away. This move would buy time for dots to take effect." Buy time for dots to take effect? What are you doing, soloing mobs with dots? If you want dots to take effect, use them on mobs with lots of HP, and they will do something (read very little). Keep skills that are already provided for other clases within those classes. If Bounty Hunters could heal, who would needs medics? If Combat Medics could use panic shot, whowould need smugglers? (Don't rebuttle against what I just said, it was said to make a point, not said to be truth).Now, why on earth would a healing class have knockdown skill? "This move would allow a CM to effectively disengage combat from a target." Rangers already have a skill called Rescue, which does exactly the same thing (takes aggro off of someone else and gives it to you). Having knockdown does not in any way assist in healing others, as you can either heal, or knockdown. It does not disengage a target from combat, it just prevents them from being hit by their agressor for a moment. Once it gets back up the agressor still deals damage, and if you are recovering from the knockdown timer, you just got someone killed.
Being a Combat Medic should not grant any special combat abilities. It simply means that you can fight (with guns, as you have to fight, presumeable with guns, before you can be a CM) and you can heal.
Dr. Sheido the (now) Expert Combat Medic
p.s. I am very upset that Area Stimpacks require Medicine Use Skill as I would have to be a decent doctor to use them but a decent Combat Medic to make them.
While I agree that the point of special moves is debatable, I think that we are in agreement that the CM class needs defense bonuses for sure, offensive bonuses possibly.
The number one thing i think is defense against posture down and KD more KD then posture down. Many CMs will heal from a kneeling position to increase weapon accuracy which means we go prone as soon as we get hit my a posture down...if we are prone we can not heal. Now this is not as important as getting KD defense...this will put us prone immediately and make it so that we cannot heal at all...this can be definately a disadvantage. As a master Cm one would expect that they have garnered enuff experience in combat that they have the innate ability to prevent themselves from getting into a situation where they cannot heal...in the same line, they shoud have learn little tricks to avoid getting hit in combat as well. This would basically means defensive bonuses.
As for moves, while I would agree that on paper without comparing us with other classes, special moves seem unneccesary. But if you look at in terms of how many points we spend compared to other classes, you will find that we are sorely missing on returns for our large skill point investment. Fact is that the other 3 classes that require ranged mastery (BH, Commando, SL) get both defense and offensive bonuses, weapon certs, special moves and special abilities. Even the SL who gets no special moves but majorly huge combat bonuses and about 6 special /commands and abilities get more out of their ranged mastery than us. Current we get exactly3 special abilities ranged heals (which stem off /healdamage) and /applypoison /applydisease. Now granted within this skill we have AOE types which add more functionality.
As for moves, almost every combat classexcept rifleman has a KD. Sogivingcombat medics who specialized in combat a non-damage pointblank KD is in no way overpowering. An argument can be made about the panicshot and the smugglers but on theother hand smugglers have to spend about 40 lessskill points then we do to achieveCM. They only need pistol specialist and unarmed specialist. So interms of our skill investment idont think this is a huge issue. Now panicshot is debatable and KD is as well,if our supression shot would actually work and cause posture changes which it doesnt. As for KD not being effective, I may have lost 1 grp member for spending a round using KD but I didnt die to that TKA/2Hsword master that was gunning for me so I've just kept the rest of the grp alive...you'll lose a lot more grp members dead then u will spending 1 round to KD and run away....and KD usually takes about 3 secs to get up from....in that time i could be considerably out of melee range of a melee class...
BTW, almost every BH i know has at least novice medic and can use stims...so BHs can heal themselves. ANd for other classes having unique abilities, what makes DoT so unique when any advanced weapon can can bleed for more and have bleeds that are harder to stop then Dots? Master Doctors can stop disease with 1 application of a high level pack, master medics need 7-8 applications of /firstaid to stop a bleed that any novice pistoleer/carbineer/rifleman can get...
Its very hard to gauge the true potential of the CM as of yet since many of the tools that could be so valuable to usare broken. But I do definately think the support line needs work...
Considering they called it CM support and not Med knowledge like the doctor line, makes me think that it should really do more than support...
also comparing us to doctor is not fair since we have to spend 29 points in marksman. Right now a doctor can be a novice pistoleer over a CM using the same points. So in order to keep balance, we have to be as effect as a doctor/novice pistoleer in combat to maintain class balance...
As for need time for dots to take effect, I'm talking mostly for PvP right now...now PvP goes entirely to fast in general and hopefully the damage reduction will fix this. But in PvP the ability to get away and get behind a wall to hide is critical and we have nothing that helps us do this...
I would also disagree with the idea that CM is mostly about healing...if u look at our tree first we ahve to get ranged healing...2nd if u look at master CM, Master CM grants you access to the highest level poison not heals. Ranged E comes at master CM crafting and not master CM which would make me think that Master Cms arent feared for their heals (which they will be after AOE is fixed and damage reduction is in) but for their dots. Along the same lines if u look at doctor their most powerful abilities as enhanced with master doc schematics. The best buffs and wound packs in the game. As powerful as revive is, buffs/wounds healings are in my opinion the true strength of the doctor. You realize that in addition to /cure lines, master doctors can basically cure all the damage a C Disease will do in one charge of a Wound E pack?
I would say CM is less about being a healer and more about being a support class...now we do this via heals, dots and ultimately special moves that help us and our grp mates stay alive. We and SL should be the ultimate support class in the game...its not all about healing...not even doctors are all about healing...
Justa thought on the master tree for medical professionals points out the best abilities of the class...
sorry, was away for a while and then forgot abotu this thread, let me continue rebutting elenora (i sure hope she never becomes the combat medic corespondent, too far to one side). ill continue in a list of things you say and contradicting them.
let me first say that dots and what not are underpowered and should be increased, i think i have at least implied this and in one of your posts you eve stated that if they were made better then a lot of your arguments would go away. also as someone else posted (and as i posted earlier) a lot of what is being said is all in how you translate "combat medic". also that i have no idea why doctors can revive but not ocmbat medics, my best guess is that this is an rp thing where maybe the combat medic drags the guy off the field and the doctor then rezzes him in a safe area, but we all know that this is never going to happen so combat medics should be given revive. then you could refute that with doctors are able to cure disease, then i could say same thign as revive, so yea, why not give combat medic that stuff, and just give doctors their buffs and their own revives. i will also agree that bounty hunters can suck my... well probably not allowed to state that. this is because bh can knockdown, eye shot and what not and totally doesnt allow for anything but enough time for you to realize you are f*cked.
"So to say that we have to get ranged support so our healing abilities are better in combat, there is no reason that the doctors should have this ability over the CM class." lets think about the skill "ranged support" wow, that sure sounds like what combat medics are, ranged support. of course i left out that it is ranged weapon support, but still dots and what not can be seen as a weapon that is ranged and helaing certainly is ranged, i think this comes back down to rp, and not so much how effective it really is, in the rp sense you shoudl have to get that to do ranged stuff. you mention doctors and why they shouldnt have to get this, simple, none of their stuff is ranged.
"Hence the dots. By your logic we have to take a upper level weapon class in order to be effective?" yes you have to take an upper level weapon class to be effective and dots (readsecond paragraph) would allow for you to be even more effective.
"The most obvious sign that DoTs not ranged heals are the trademark of the CM class is that fact that at Master CM all you get are schematics for DoTs. This shows me that DoT were meant to be very powerful with Master CMs being powerful classes that could deal out death with one hand and saves lives with the other..." im pretty sure dots are going to be made more effective eventually (fixed really), so how about when you are complaining about stuff you leave out the lack of effectiveness of dots as im sure this will be dealt with.
"CM class needs defense bonuses for sure" sure maybe a skill mod of to resist knockdown and posutre change might be nice but in no way should this be certainly be part of the cm tree but rather a nice addition if the devs choose to do so.
" Many CMs will heal from a kneeling position to increase weapon accuracy which means we go prone as soon as we get hit my a posture down...if we are prone we can not heal." i heal from standing up simply because there is a lot of running done in pvp, either by chasing or being chased (and by this i mean more than the distance that combat medics can heal at range, which then you might argue then that this disqualifies cm purpose of healing at range, but no, it is a lot easier to heal someone even while running around with ranged than having to be within 7 meters of them and allows you to heal people that is running around in your group from within the center of the groupor whatever).
"Even the SL who gets no special moves but majorly huge combat bonuses and about 6 special /commands and abilities get more out of their ranged mastery than us." with our ragned we get tumble to knell, tumble to prone and whatever, the same stuff that other people get when they get their spec ranged weapon (i think you are over extending by saying that they get more as it continues in those professions because it doesnt, the only thing it continues into is the elite weapon skill rifle/carbineer/pistoleer).
"Master Doctors can stop disease with 1 application of a high level pack, master medics need 7-8 applications of /firstaid to stop a bleed that any novice pistoleer/carbineer/rifleman can get..." you said it, "master medics" this is a medic issue, not a combat medic issue. though i do agree that it would be nice for combat medics to heal this more effectively, or for /firstaid to do better, because yea, bleeding takes way to long to heal currently, especially mind bleeds since it makes it difficult to even heal yourself.
"BTW, almost every BH i know has at least novice medic and can use stims...so BHs can heal themselves." they can use stim b's, there is no comparison to a stim b and the stim d's i am currently using.
"also comparing us to doctor is not fair since we have to spend 29 points in marksman. Right now a doctor can be a novice pistoleer over a CM using the same points. So in order to keep balance, we have to be as effect as a doctor/novice pistoleer in combat to maintain class balance..." if you get novice pistoleer you will also have ragned weapon support spec or just about. when you kill something with pistol you get combat xp and pistol xp. combat xp goes into ranged weap support and continues under a different name in the pistol line btu still uses combat xp. i suppose you could probably just save those combat xp points but i dont think it is supposed to be done that way, this would be an issue devs would need to work on, possibly make it so all elite weapon classes require ranged wepaon support too. you say how a doctor can have novice pistoleer over cm, yes they can if you limit to just that points, but doctors cant do anythign ranged, hence "ranged" wepaon support. also it doesnt take a cm any longer to get novice pistoleer than it does a doctor.
"Hence we spend 1 attack action to apply then return to our job of healing...we dont sit there and special move hoping to kill while trying to slip in a heal. Dots will allow to do what our job is and thats to heal support our grp while still dishing out damage. Having to use a weapon directly conflicts with the ability of a CM to heal. Thats why the DoT is such a beatiful fit for the CM class." the way you fight is different than me, i do specials, i try not to let the default attack go because it sucks. what i try to do is not fill up my que too much so i can slip a heal in when needed. really this comes down to another issue than i am in support of, making medic commands immediate and not put in the que.
>>>>so really i think i have brough up some things that should be gone after rather than you what you are looking for. first all medic commands should not be put in the que (anyway, healing is reactionary, and isnt something that you want done of a schedule like the attacks you are dealing, it is rather something that you see happening and thus need to put in immediatly), this would allow us to heal people while not having to fumble with the que to fit a heal in. Give us something that can heal bleeding in one dose. Give us the ability to revive possibly and maybe even cure diseases and what not. make dots more powerful. this is the stuff that will make combat medic better in a combat oriented sense, not adding some stuff like special knockdown moves that arent needed<<<<<
i would like to finish by saying, the stuff you get from combat medic tree were in no way hidden from you, if you didnt like what it gave you then you should have chosen something else (not going into what doesnt work, that stuff will be dealt with by the devs im sure). but the actual abilites and stuff you got were all there for you to see and you should have planned your template accordingly.
First of all I'm a CM and I love the class but i think it needs improvement...Im not sayingI didnt know what I was gettting into with the class but its things ive noticed about the class in comparison to otehr classes and evaluations made on the investment of skill points and not just looking at the class in a vaccum. This game is played in a universe with a mutlitude of classes, and in order to keep the variety going, classes need to be balanced...
First of all we only get moves like tumble and roll but all the other classes that have to master ranged support get not only more special abilities but also combat bonuses...Commandos get them in teh tactics tree...SL get group combat bonuses and BH dont even have to be mentioned what they get. We get ZERO returns from ranged support. That is a fact, we get the the same bonuses as the other classes yet none of the benefits of mastery and going on to an advanced profession. In my opinion, if you are going to make a prereq for a class, that skill should be built upon but since CM is broken is that sense totally maybe not getting anything from our prereq was designed into CM (only thing that carries over from medic for us is 5 experiment points for components). But on the other hand, commandos have little use from unarmed specialist and BH from scout (outside the terrain negotiation) so I agree maybe this is a debatable point. I think the commando is the only class that could really relate to the CM class since they have a useless line (unarmed specialist) and a full class that does little to add to their advanced skills since they have to use all new weapon types. ANd its universally accept that commando is the most broken class in the game.
I disagree that we have to take a advanced weapon skill with CM since a CM with pistol specialist spends the same skill pointsas a doctor with novice pistoleer and almost one full tree in the that class...so in terms of class balance this does not work...basically this means stopping shot doctors which will hand down be more effective than a CM...
Defense bonuses i would think would be crucial to CMs as an extention of out combat training. training which a doctor doesnt get...
The kneeling posture down defense is less of an issue for for me than knockdown...just like rifleman are almostusless when standing and thus get posture up change defense...a CM is useless prone and thus deserves defense bonuses...again every single advanced combat class gets combat defense bonuses for thier classes in order to do what they do best..no reason why we should have them as well...as we are an advanced combat class...
The bleed issue was just an example of how underpowered dots are which is pretty much everyone CMs opinion...the damage reduction in conjuction with the fixing of dots will probably fix this situation making Dots the most effective damage of time method in the game...this has yet to be seen.
Novice pistoleers often save their combat xp for they special abilities line (the one that contains pistol whip) so you will find that novice pistoleers actually dont get ranged xp because they save that xp for their combat xp line in pistoleer...
A stim B using all advanced components will be more than powerful enough to fully heal a unbuffed character...basically yes stim B will not heal as much as a Stim D but as long as you get a full heal does it matter? most of the time healing with stim D is over kill and stim C is more than sufficient and stim Bs made with advanced components are basically stim Cs...
The reason you do specials is because you are a pistoleer...you arent using ur CM abilities if you are shooting and using specials as it again directly inhibits your ability to heal. Besides right now with the pace of combat, every thing is basically a one shot kill and even if heals are effective, you will not wanna stick ur head out to let people get LOS. Remember we are talking about fixing a underpowered class...making a advanced class basically have to master another advanced class is not a effective solution to class balance...Fixing CM will not make CM/pistoleers less powerful. if anything they will be more powerful. We are talking about an advanced class that needs to be brought up to speed with other advanced classes...u are basically telling commandos to go take TKA to be effective in combat...
I like the fact that healing takes a combat action...thats the basic point, u either choose to deal damage or heal damage...looking at daoc, you cant even heal if u are being attacked or attacking...so i think its nice that i can fit in a auto attack between heals at all. I think this is a great way for balancing the medics ability to keep people alive...its a sacrifice a CM makes to support...medics and doctorseither support or attack..but the CM has the tools to do it both which is why he is a COMBAT MEDIC and nota COMBAT medic or a combat MEDIC...
and just because nothing was hidden from me in Cm does mean the class doenst need work...they are all there and on paper they look great u stack that up against the way the game is played and you realize how underpowered we really are...
no doubt about it CM was meant to be a combat class...in beta we had to master the whole marksman tree....
"I would love to see them fix the terrain negotiation bug. I know it says in CM support tree that it is designed to help get tot he patient faster but I am mastered and I get no terrain negotiation bonus. "
At Master CM you get a +10 terrain nav, that's it. I notice a difference, but it's really only going up hills. CM's should get more terrain nav imo. CM's are suppose to be able to get to the patient fast. I'd love to see more defence in the CM but here's the deal= ALL defences are broken completly from dodge to melee defence, they don't work reliably. I currently have a +60 ranged defence. I should be dodging bullets and things like that like a novice jedi. But I MIGHT dodge once in 8 hours of gameplay. Fix and give dodge or more ranged defence to CM's.
I completly disgree with a pistolwhip type for a CM. You're a range person. You shouldn't be in their face anyways. You have 34+ range on healing. +34 range on poisoning the target. Now here's another issue, I have +100 range heals yet i heal the same distance as when a novice. Where's the increase range? Atmaster CM i should be able to throw poisons and heals atmax range of 64. I think that would GREATLY increase the CM's survivbilityin pvp and pve. I'mconstantly getting agro to themob because i'm closer than the rest of my party member if i'm trying to poison the target.
You should get some form of KD in your weapon line.
> and the KD moves will do even more afterthe pvp damage reduction goes
> through because KD moves gets a 50% damage increase...
Actually you are slightly mistaken here.
KD moves itself did not get damage increase.
Here is what the patch note says:
* If hit while knocked down the player will take 50% more damage
So it's not KD move that will do more damage (though it is unclear if damage from KD move itself will count), but all the moves against person who is KDed.
> these are purely defensive moves that help us and the grp stay alive.
So they are weaker then corresponding weapon spec moves ?
If so they only benefit selected group of CMs who (against dev suggestions, specs and guide) went CM without spec weapon. I am not sure that's a good idea.
OffTopic about druids:
> druids get instant root that allows them to get away...(essentially the same thing as a KD would do)
Druids get AOE root that works as perfect crowd control, not as get-away option.
> druids also have a pet to tank for them...
> druids cant spec in weapons...
I changed it in my example: imagine if druid were not getting pets but could spec weapon (as they have been asking, but never granted)
> all the weapons a druid needs is already in his lines
Not really, in reality they are missing damage weapon (pet is laughable), whereas CM do get ability to spec it and it's a requirement to spec at least some to even become a CM.
Combat-Medic wrote:
"I completly disgree with a pistolwhip type for a CM. You're a range person. You shouldn't be in their face anyways. You have 34+ range on healing. +34 range on poisoning the target. Now here's another issue, I have +100 range heals yet i heal the same distance as when a novice. Where's the increase range? Atmaster CM i should be able to throw poisons and heals atmax range of 64. I think that would GREATLY increase the CM's survivbilityin pvp and pve. I'mconstantly getting agro to themob because i'm closer than the rest of my party member if i'm trying to poison the target.
The pistolwhip would be more like a tripshot...i e its not for getting in peoples faces, its most for getting people out of ours...now grantedif supression shot is fixed we can make people kneel but they recover faster from kneeling then KD. Im not worried about getting in peoples faces im worried about them getting in mine....right now we have no way of getting away from people outside burst run. hence the need for a defensive KD...
i really dont think ifthe devs really meant for KD to be this way...I would envision KD like this...
for melee type, the ability to KD would be to prevent flight. For ranged types KD would have been used to buy time for someone to get away from a melee type. As it is now, KD has become a primary weapon for ranged classes rather than something defensive as I think itshould be for ranged...just makes me laugh that pistoleers are basically using their gun not to shoot right now but as a club.... honestly i would like to see KDs for ranged classes modified for defensive purposes rather than offensive...for melees the KD should be a huge offensive weapon preventing their targets from fleeing.
ranged works fine for me...i heal at aboutaround 55ms with ranged D and would figure to be about 60m with ranged E...my dots are 48m. Dots could use a bit of a range increase but i dont think its a huge issue...giving dots too much range can be overpowering considering that we can use them LOS....also u know that charge experimentation can raise the range of the pack...
I always found terrain negotiation in the CM line to be ratehr amusing...we heal at range hence lessing the need to run to our targets....all terrain negotiation does right now is help us keep up with people going up hills...