Combat Medic Archive
Thread: No CM nerf or so it sounds like...
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jfang
Tue Jun 15, 2004 7:06 am
#14
Brainplay wrote:
Having a problem with your logic here jfang. In what sense do doctors deserve an *area* cure? At the moment the ONLY class that can cure poison or disease is a doctor. However, with the addition of DoT weapons EVERY combat class has the potential to poison other classes (there's a guy with a mind poisonpistol that torchesalot of people on a regular basis on sunrunner) Both the CM and doctor professions are medical in nature while the doctor profession focuses on powerful single target 6m range actions while the CM focuses on long distance actions. Giving CM's the ability to cure diseases in a limited fashion would make perfect sense.
Another thing that chaps me is the constant mind set that doctors should be the ONLY cure all's in the game. They are the most unique in terms of combat in this game. They were given fire blankets and now they are suggesting delving into CM territory. Why not give CM's *area* cure pack A's and set the ability at Master CM. Not as good as cure C's, wont be a full cure the first time against anything that ticks for 600+. Combat ability wise doctors would still have the ability to revive, buff, and do full cures when faced with more than one CM.
Innoculations are one idea but then whats the exchange for that? The upcoming spice is perfect although I think they should have made it for all poisons and not just mind. Mitigation at a cost over time and provided by someone other than a doctor.
Yes, there are DOT weapons. However, as discussed in another thread about pikemen, useable DOT weapons are very rare and extremely expensive. It took me a long time to realize that a 50 potency on a poison pistol was very good, being used to the 100+ in craftable poisons. Comparing your average combat medic poison to an exceptional (or legendary) pistol is not really a fair comparison, much like saying "combat medics have 600 strength spider venom, they need a nerf)". Other classes can get DOT weapons, but they are not to the same ease of acquisition or effectiveness of standard combat medic poisons, so I do not think they really infringe on our abilities to any large degree.
You do have a legitimate argument of "combat medics are healers too, why don't we get the area cure?" What it boils down to for me is that if you give combat medics any reasonable cure (read: not a 25 effectiveness area poison cure, but something reasonably useable) I think the poison-curing battle will be reduced to a "combat medic vs combat medic" battle. Some might argue that this is good as doctors should not be in the thick of combat, but I would prefer a more diverse "combat medic vs doctors" type of battle. It might make a little less sense logically, but both possibilities somewhat blur the lines between the classes, and I think doctors getting area cures is healthier than combat medics getting them (assuming they were to be added at all).
Actually, one idea I just had would be that doctors cures as they stand. However, combat medics get an area "poison/disease suppressant" which would prevent ticks for the next 30 seconds or minute before needing to be re-applied, but do not cure the poison. So a combat medic can keep you in the battle, but you will eventually need to withdraw to a doctor to get it treated for real. Hmm... I like how that sounds at first thought, but won't go into a full detailed analysis here.
For innoculations, there wouldn't be anything in exchange for that. It could be counterbalanced by affecting standard buffs or what not. However, in my personal opinion there are too few effective preventative items against poisons. Combat medics are really the only primary actors in combat, so they have (in my opinion) an excessive advantage when engaging the enemy. I would think the addition of an effective innoculation would help patch that problem (although I think more of the real underlying problem is the base range and potency of advanced poisons). This might be compensated by giving a little more effectiveness or area of effect to poisons, but in my personal opinion this is not necessary.
However, I think serious talk of an innoculation is premature before the combat rebalance. Area curing might not be (assuming we still have area attacks post rebalance and no equivalent counters), but with the introduction of the mind poison spice and whenall the pools are healable the effect of poisons might be muted enough such that resisting it becomes less important so much as surviving through it.
MNC
Tue Jun 15, 2004 12:43 pm
#15
If Doctors get area cures, then Ranged Support needs to become a requirement. Either add Ranged Support to the Doctor requirements, or remove it from the CM requirements.
Mild-Breeze-Trooper
Tue Jun 15, 2004 12:45 pm
#16
Why can't both give?
Doctors get an area cure centered on themselves, like an Diablo II aura.
Combat Medics get a ranged single cure.
Doctors need to buy dispersal mechanisms from us and we need to buy some poison cure component from them.
Now, that'd be fair I think.
XAND0R
Tue Jun 15, 2004 3:25 pm
#17
Personally, I feel combat medics should receive area cures, not doctors. When would anyone need to use an area cure? ...In combat. So why shouldn't the combat medic receive the combat-situation cure? I realize the need to counter a combat medic area poison, but why does the counter have to be from a non-combat medic?
Just my 2 cents.
Brainplay
Tue Jun 15, 2004 7:15 pm
#18
jfang wrote:
Yes, there are DOT weapons. However, as discussed in another thread about pikemen, useable DOT weapons are very rare and extremely expensive. It took me a long time to realize that a 50 potency on a poison pistol was very good, being used to the 100+ in craftable poisons. Comparing your average combat medic poison to an exceptional (or legendary) pistol is not really a fair comparison, much like saying "combat medics have 600 strength spider venom, they need a nerf)". Other classes can get DOT weapons, but they are not to the same ease of acquisition or effectiveness of standard combat medic poisons, so I do not think they really infringe on our abilities to any large degree. I am not arguing that looted or crafted DoT weapons infringe on our DoT abilities. There is nothing to date that I've seen or heard about that has gone past 200 per tick. I was stating that they are available to all combat professions allowingALL of themthe potential to apply a poisonor disease yet there is only one profession that can cure these.
You do have a legitimate argument of "combat medics are healers too, why don't we get the area cure?" What it boils down to for me is that if you give combat medics any reasonable cure (read: not a 25 effectiveness area poison cure, but something reasonably useable) I think the poison-curing battle will be reduced to a "combat medic vs combat medic" battle. Some might argue that this is good as doctors should not be in the thick of combat, but I would prefer a more diverse "combat medic vs doctors" type of battle. It might make a little less sense logically, but both possibilities somewhat blur the lines between the classes, and I think doctors getting area cures is healthier than combat medics getting them (assuming they were to be added at all). The problem with your ideas is that you are concentrating on only one aspect of the fighting and neglecting the other combat professions and abilities going on around us. I'm not asking for a full one shot cure but only a cureA. Even well made will only cure about 150 of the effectiveness (-300per tick if given the medical +2 bonus) meaning mulitple cures of this type will be needed. Cancelling a CM with another CM is not such a hard thing to swallow, they are COMBAT medics after all. You claim diversity in a CM vs. Doctor type of battle yetdoctors can still do much much more than just cure poison/disease. On the other hand CM's can throw poison/disease and use ranged heals (heals being matched by anyone with a cheap stimB). This is not healthier for doctors but rather overpowering them than they already are. What would the point of being a CM if our only uses areto streamlinethe Corvette, DWB, or Geo cave missions? Do I have to pick up doctor if I want to have any sort of real support powers?
Actually, one idea I just had would be that doctors cures as they stand. However, combat medics get an area "poison/disease suppressant" which would prevent ticks for the next 30 seconds or minute before needing to be re-applied, but do not cure the poison. So a combat medic can keep you in the battle, but you will eventually need to withdraw to a doctor to get it treated for real. Hmm... I like how that sounds at first thought, but won't go into a full detailed analysis here. I like the sound of this actually, it would keep alot of people on their toes and doctors would have to set up triage station (stick them in the rear guard like they belong..sheesh). At the same time it would make CM's more valuable alive than as a one shot disposable weapon.
For innoculations, there wouldn't be anything in exchange for that. It could be counterbalanced by affecting standard buffs or what not. However, in my personal opinion there are too few effective preventative items against poisons. Combat medics are really the only primary actors in combat, so they have (in my opinion) an excessive advantage when engaging the enemy. I would think the addition of an effective innoculation would help patch that problem (although I think more of the real underlying problem is the base range and potency of advanced poisons). This might be compensated by giving a little more effectiveness or area of effect to poisons, but in my personal opinion this is not necessary. I agree that if you're going to invent an innoculation there has to be a counterbalance and curbing the power of buffs is one way to go about it. Yes we have an excessive advantage if we can survive long enough to drop our payloads but that is also a game issue (excessive vulnerability of the MIND pool) and is better discussed in the developer forum. Range has been a big issue and has already been stated that it will be cut back down to the 64m cap or possibly lower. Lowering potency or at least raising the effectiveness of chef foods would be a great way to provide a chance at resists but with the announcement of the mitigation spice I dont see that happening (why resist a health poison when it barely scratches you already?) I dont think adding more effectiveness or area effect of our poisons would help much, they are good enough where they stand.
However, I think serious talk of an innoculation is premature before the combat rebalance. Area curing might not be (assuming we still have area attacks post rebalance and no equivalent counters), but with the introduction of the mind poison spice and whenall the pools are healable the effect of poisons might be muted enough such that resisting it becomes less important so much as surviving through it. Would be nice if we get a cut of that mind healing aspect wouldn't it?
oblivion3134
Tue Jun 15, 2004 8:02 pm
#19
PsionicHawk wrote:
I am not, nor will ever be a fan of area cures.
Edit for niceness: Buff Doc cures or nerf CM damage are more or less the options
Message Edited by oblivion3134 on 06-15-2004 11:15 PM
jfang
Tue Jun 15, 2004 8:49 pm
#20
Brainplay wrote:
The problem with your ideas is that you are concentrating on only one aspect of the fighting and neglecting the other combat professions and abilities going on around us. I'm not asking for a full one shot cure but only a cureA. Even well made will only cure about 150 of the effectiveness (-300per tick if given the medical +2 bonus) meaning mulitple cures of this type will be needed. Cancelling a CM with another CM is not such a hard thing to swallow, they are COMBAT medics after all. You claim diversity in a CM vs. Doctor type of battle yetdoctors can still do much much more than just cure poison/disease. On the other hand CM's can throw poison/disease and use ranged heals (heals being matched by anyone with a cheap stimB). This is not healthier for doctors but rather overpowering them than they already are. What would the point of being a CM if our only uses areto streamlinethe Corvette, DWB, or Geo cave missions? Do I have to pick up doctor if I want to have any sort of real support powers?
I agree that if you're going to invent an innoculation there has to be a counterbalance and curbing the power of buffs is one way to go about it. Yes we have an excessive advantage if we can survive long enough to drop our payloads but that is also a game issue (excessive vulnerability of the MIND pool) and is better discussed in the developer forum. Range has been a big issue and has already been stated that it will be cut back down to the 64m cap or possibly lower. Lowering potency or at least raising the effectiveness of chef foods would be a great way to provide a chance at resists but with the announcement of the mitigation spice I dont see that happening (why resist a health poison when it barely scratches you already?) I dont think adding more effectiveness or area effect of our poisons would help much, they are good enough where they stand.
Would be nice if we get a cut of that mind healing aspect wouldn't it?
Well, the more I think about area cures for combat medic the more I like the idea. It would have to be balanced, but I can see the positives of it. My biggest concern is that in my opinion there should be a diversity of professions in combat. (The same reason why they shouldn't blanket remove/nerf to oblivion poisons from combat...) As for combat medics not being able to do enough in combat, yes, for healing they 'only' have healmind and ranged and area stims. However, I have yet to be eclipsed by a doctor for healing in a party (note I do PvE combat), even considering the state healing of doctors. This would be further supplemented if they nerfed stim B's somehow. Giving combat medics a type of area curing would add to their usefulness in combat, but in my personal opinion being able to heal somebody beyond 5m (vital when the target is running or you are lagged), and area heals make us already the best combat healers.
I agree that experimentation of poisons and diseases needs to be tweaked. In particular lowering base advanced potency and range (possibly increasing effectiveness in return), so there is an incentive to experiment other things. However, I still maintain that without some kind of preventative measure non-combat medics can take before entering combat, no matter how balanced you make poisons and diseases they will still be over powered, because they are the only primary actor soalmost bydefinition have an advantage in power. I think more effective defenses (be them skills,foods, innoculations, gas masks, etc) would be healthy to the game no matter what other changes to poisons and diseases happen. (If you are curious about what I mean 'primary actor', I wrote about this is a post a while ago. I think it was called 'action, reaction, and overpowered poisons'...)
I am hoping that /healmind will be replaced with some new equivalent, like /healspecialsbar (a purely combat related damage). But who can say... 
Edit:
Wow, all the names of the "Community Elders" just turned purple. Now I feel even more left out. 
Message Edited by jfang on 06-15-2004 11:51 PM
RebPointer
Tue Jun 15, 2004 10:48 pm
#21
Why is everybody trying to change the one profession in this game that does what it is supposed to do and does it well. You can't just master CM and then run out and cause death, destruction, and mayhem. It' requires alot of work, alot of resources, and alot of time to prepare before we hit the battlefield. Although I find it justifiable, I'll try not to insult anyone directly. Leave this class alone the balance between Doc and CM is just fine and no...absolutely not....by any means, should there be more effective counters to CM.
Innoculate: This is rich. tell ya what....give me a stim that makes me immune to blaster fire, swords, flamethrowers, carbines etc, etc, etc....and I will be more than happy to entertain the idea of you being able to take something that makes you immune to my weapon poison/disease.
Increase Poison/Disease resistance: See above, insert resistance in place of immune.
No harm intended here guys, defending my class. I may just be lousy, but I lose more than half of any one on one encounters on the battlefield as it is, most battles last under 30 secs, and i got this awesome disease that ticks at 40 seconds. i just don't see where there needs to be a nerf in any shape, form, or fashion regarding CM.
jfang
Wed Jun 16, 2004 6:22 am
#22
RebPointer wrote:
Innoculate: This is rich. tell ya what....give me a stim that makes me immune to blaster fire, swords, flamethrowers, carbines etc, etc, etc....and I will be more than happy to entertain the idea of you being able to take something that makes you immune to my weapon poison/disease.
Increase Poison/Disease resistance: See above, insert resistance in place of immune.
No harm intended here guys, defending my class. I may just be lousy, but I lose more than half of any one on one encounters on the battlefield as it is, most battles last under 30 secs, and i got this awesome disease that ticks at 40 seconds. i just don't see where there needs to be a nerf in any shape, form, or fashion regarding CM.
Currently there is flameout which provides a 100% defense to swords, blaster fire, etc. for a couple of hits. There is also synthsteak which provides 40% (I think) defense to standard attacks for more hits. I am not envisioning a "you get an innoculation and can now laugh in the face of danger". I expect more of a "you get an innoculation, and get a guaranteed 50% poison resist chance after the normal potency/resist rolls". Something which isn't entirely overpowered, but gives a useful preventative measure to poisons.
The problem is that in looking from the perspective of the combat medic victim, there is really very little they can do until actively poisoned, and even then the majority of classes can't do anything about it. This may or may not be good, but I personally think that there should be more generally available countermeasures (much like how everybody can wear at least some armor, or get buffed). This can be in the form of poison mitigation spice (already planned), making mind more healable (already planned), of gas masks, or what have you. Innoculations are just one of the many ideas which have been bounced around in the forums. After the combat revamp, they may or may not still make sense to add.
Mierin123
Wed Jun 16, 2004 11:19 am
#23
I agree with the fact I don't think docs should get any area healing..that is completely a cm role. I also don't think anything in the cm profession needs nerfing or counter balancing. I think that if anyone wants an area heal poison/disease..it should go to cm. No it doesn't turn into a cm vs cm fight. Seriously..it is still a side vs side fight. If you think your group is going to be in combat with a combat medic involved, bring your own combat medic to the fight. I don't understand why every whines about one class or the other...each and every class has its advantages and disadvantages.
Mierin123
Wed Jun 16, 2004 11:23 am
#24
Also to add.. if they start making a bunch of stuff to make poisons/diseases usless, then combat medic truely will be nerfed, cuz then everyone will be able to be not effected by the poisons and diseases easily without much strategy either. Then what will be the point. It would be like makeing the hit of a TKA completely uneffective throughout the whole fight, what fun is that?
Brainplay
Wed Jun 16, 2004 2:38 pm
#25
Ya know if they nerfed the +250 unarmed damage bonus no one would probably want to play a TK anymore.
Yes, jfang I know how powerful ranged healing is but the fact is that it is an ability rarely used and I mean by default. I have had to use my healing ability relatively fewer times than I have poisoning since most PvP fights and a large chunk of PvE fight end with an empty mind bar.
Last night there was a big PvP fight by the cantina (near the cloning station) in coronet. It turned into a massive gtef fight after a while and I stopped poisoning a while back since they were unbuffed (poisoning unbuffed people is just mean). At the end of the fight some guy gave the old line about how we should be just "medics" when I asked him what I'm supposed to heal that he couldn't he and the rest of his part got awfully quiet (then proceeded to **edit** more). Our doctor by the way didn't have to heal anyone, he just ran up and cured the mind fires, dizzies, blinds, and poisons all of which saved a bunch of people including my pathetic self. In that massive battle I dropped a single ranged stimC on a dizzy/KD'd guy getting beat on by a stun baton weilding fencer.
Until they nerf doctor buffs our healing abilities are just overrated.
jfang
Wed Jun 16, 2004 4:28 pm
#26
Brainplay wrote:
Ya know if they nerfed the +250 unarmed damage bonus no one would probably want to play a TK anymore.
Yes, jfang I know how powerful ranged healing is but the fact is that it is an ability rarely used and I mean by default. I have had to use my healing ability relatively fewer times than I have poisoning since most PvP fights and a large chunk of PvE fight end with an empty mind bar.
Last night there was a big PvP fight by the cantina (near the cloning station) in coronet. It turned into a massive gtef fight after a while and I stopped poisoning a while back since they were unbuffed (poisoning unbuffed people is just mean). At the end of the fight some guy gave the old line about how we should be just "medics" when I asked him what I'm supposed to heal that he couldn't he and the rest of his part got awfully quiet (then proceeded to **edit** more). Our doctor by the way didn't have to heal anyone, he just ran up and cured the mind fires, dizzies, blinds, and poisons all of which saved a bunch of people including my pathetic self. In that massive battle I dropped a single ranged stimC on a dizzy/KD'd guy getting beat on by a stun baton weilding fencer.
Until they nerf doctor buffs our healing abilities are just overrated.
I agree that poisoning unbuffed people is not really worth it. But I would argue that is because they die (not from poisons) so quickly that it's not worth it. At least in my limited experience, when you have two groups of unbuffed people the average life expectancy of each is about 15 seconds, which means a poison won't even tick once (as it takes time to target and poison somebody). But like I said, I have limited PvP experience...
I think you are mis-attributing the cause of healing problems. As you said, everybody was unbuffed, so the doctor buffs aren't the problem. In my opinion, the problem is that mind damage is unhealable, so everybody targets that (because it is unhealable), so healing people doesn't do anything.
Like I said though, I am coming from a PvE environment where health and action damage, and thus healing, is more common and useful. In this environment, where damage *is* healable (and in theory how all combat will be post combat revamp), I maintain that combat medics are better healers than doctors and medics.
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