Combat Medic Archive
Thread: JustG's comments about CM's in PvP from stratics
vortexala
Sat Aug 14, 2004 10:09 pm
#14
That was just the funniest thing ever, ocain! Did you think that up all by yourself? Good for you!
*gives you a tag* run along now...
Brainplay
Sun Aug 15, 2004 4:07 am
#15
Pirrg-Freemoon wrote:
as a CM (log into chimera and look at my title) i only have one thing to say.
THANK GOD WE GOT NERFED. I cant think of any profession in swg in need of nerfing more then CM.
Imo they should just skip 9.4 cus cm are fine the way they are now.
Simply pathetic. There were a dozen different ways of balancing out our poison/diseases yet you are for one of the most ill thought out ones so far.
Chef food and smuggler spice. The spice would have benefited more professions than innoc's. Fixing chef foods to actually work would have been much more feasible and have been much more balanced.
Mild-Breeze-Trooper
Sun Aug 15, 2004 7:15 am
#16
Brainplay wrote:
Pirrg-Freemoon wrote:
as a CM (log into chimera and look at my title) i only have one thing to say.
THANK GOD WE GOT NERFED. I cant think of any profession in swg in need of nerfing more then CM.
Imo they should just skip 9.4 cus cm are fine the way they are now.
Simply pathetic. There were a dozen different ways of balancing out our poison/diseases yet you are for one of the most ill thought out ones so far.
Chef food and smuggler spice. The spice would have benefited more professions than innoc's. Fixing chef foods to actually work would have been much more feasible and have been much more balanced.
Yes... but had it been a super duper doofalicious meganerf that kept the retarded quiet?
Kharrissa
Sun Aug 15, 2004 8:38 am
#17
"I cant think of any profession in swg in need of nerfing more then CM."
Heh, that is interesting, because I can think of one with no trouble at all.
Pahdbacca
Sun Aug 15, 2004 9:52 am
#18
Kharrissa wrote:
"I cant think of any profession in swg in need of nerfing more then CM."
Heh, that is interesting, because I can think of one with no trouble at all.
Ooooooohhhhhh, sweet
/scribbles in his notebook
Mmaxx
Mon Aug 16, 2004 5:10 am
#19
It is interesting that for over a year the Devs said all along that CMs were as they should be. Poisons and Diseases are working as intended. Then one Dev states that CMs are over powered and this is the only quote from Devs they can locate.
How, over the span of a month, did CMs go from working as intended to beingway overpowered? And this is after the havla and range fix.
What really scares me is all the fans of this 'fix'. I'm sure they are excited that they have a greater chance against CMs now but to support this type of a fix is encouraging this behaviour on the Devs side of things.
We all want all kinds of fixes in this game but cheering for one because it hurts CMs is not really looking at the big picture. This fix makes it so one doc that has area cures can totally remove the offensive capabilities of a few CMs. The devs implemented these area cures with too much range and made them much more powerful then their single counterparts. If this is thier approach to a fix and you chear it, what will the HAM rebalance look like? What will the adjusted buffs look like? What will the new armor stats look like? They implemented a fix after running it on TC and ignored the TC results and tester feedback.TC results showed that the area cures were not following any kind of formula. Do you want this to happen when they test other broken fixes?
You may hate CMs for one reason or another but saying this patch is a good thing is awfully short sighted. Balance is needed, nulifying one class' weapons is not.
DoctorGriggs
Mon Aug 16, 2004 6:52 am
#20
vortexala wrote:Inability to heal mind as easily as health and action is what made us APPEAR to be overpowered. But it is NOT a flaw or the fault of the profession itself.
Texxie you nailed it there.
Right now the ability (or inability) to target the mind pool or heal the mind pool is the single biggest unbalancing factor.
Then look at the combat professions - and out of the ranged rifleman (or BH) are the only ones with mind hit. Now also factor in rifleman has AP3 high damage T21 that can be capped at like once per second. Pair that with CM tossing spider venom mind poisons.
The CM/rifleman template was a FOTM for this very reason.
Another issue though is that the CM was the ONLY class that could simultaneously hit EVERYTHING within the radius. No other combat profession had an AOE so large and was able to inflict so much devastation.
I think a LOT of things will be different after the combat revamp.
Kharrissa
Mon Aug 16, 2004 7:50 am
#21
"How, over the span of a month, did CMs go from working as intended to beingway overpowered?"
This is what is known as "The Dogma of the Day."
Whatever they say is (by definition) correct.
If what they say yesterday and what they say today are totally different, then we are not supposed to notice that, we are just supposed to believe Today's Truth.
There are not enough words in my vocabulary to describe all the ways that this is pathetic.
neutrineaux
Mon Aug 16, 2004 11:37 am
#22
Pirrg-Freemoon wrote:
as a CM (log into chimera and look at my title) i only have one thing to say.
THANK GOD WE GOT NERFED. I cant think of any profession in swg in need of nerfing more then CM.
Imo they should just skip 9.4 cus cm are fine the way they are now.
i still have "mercenary" over my head, but i dropped that a while back.
given the depth of thought obviously devoted to your post, i would have to say, "Your opinions are stunning in their brazen pandering to the lowest intellectual denominators available. they are worse than sloppy and wrong, they are violently retarded."
can't recall where i heard that. seems to apply nicely here. 
Mmaxx
Mon Aug 16, 2004 1:03 pm
#23
DJODoc wrote:
I have a few thoughts on the subject from a non-CM perspective.
1. Poisons are an offensive "weapon" for CMs. Why don't they have the same 75% PvP reduction that everyone else has? I remember reading a couple weeks ago TH mentioning on the boards or in a chat that it has something to do with the "heal code" not being as easily modified as the attacks code. And right now poison chucking falls into the heal logic. I think this would level the playing field for PvP significantly and many of the complaints would go away.
There have been dozens of posts on why CMs can't be part of the 75% PVP reduction without making them totally useless. How annoying is a 100 tick every 10 seconds?that's just it, it's annoying but a 400 tick makes you take action to stop it...If CMs are in the 75% PVP reduction the counter for their attack is /sit.
2. The devs made mention in one of their state of the game addresses that CM were supposed to be support characters. Yet to date they haven't seemed to make any changes to move toward that. Seems to me that CMs should be the profession doing the area heals on poisons and diseases, not doctors. CM's should have access to high grade area heals and target heals for poison and disease while at the same time be able to make lower quality poison/disease cures for people with some level of medic.
I have lost all faith in what Devs have said or say. They contradict each other and themsleves. they don't play the same game you do so take little heed in what they say. While I agree that CMs should have received the area cures instead of the Docs, I do not agree that CMs are support characters. A medic is a support character. A CM is a force to be dealt with....with support tools as well as offensive tools. And leave the cures in the hands of the professionels. Medics should not have cure ability so if CMs can have it then Doc is going to have to do.
3. CMs who choose to throw area disease/poison should be vulnerable tothose poisons/diseasesthemselves. Since they technically are in the range of that poison. So CMs handling deadly poison/disease agents would have to be careful and not just chuck it as they are now. Or implement a timer visible only to the CM to let them know when the poison "container" will open. That would give them time to move out of it's radius.
If you want to introduce friendly fire in the game, it better apply to all professions. Currently you don't think twice about tanking for a Comando but I'd bet you would if that flame was going to affect you. If you want area attacks to inflict damage on teammates then be ready to apply it to all area attacks, not just CM. As a non CM you may not see this as an issue but if half your weapons could kill you upon use then how would you feel?
4. Adding to point 3, I would like to see the implementation of apparatus that could be built into armor suits to improve poison disease resistance. Maybe give CMs and/or Doctors the schematic for optional armor components to resist poison/disease that they can sell to armorsmiths. Then CMs could wear armor that protected them while they threw their poisons.
Maybe after they play with that absorption rate a bit more it would work closely to what you are sugesting. Having a suit that lowered the poisons tick by say 25% by spraying clean air at your face or something.... not sure how it would look but increasing resistance is not really balanced. Decreasing the damage output is balanced. Their current attempts at balance involve negating all aspects of CMs damage capabilities. This is not balance. All other clases get to do damage except CM and increasing the items in the game to negate a CM does not help. Adding items that lower the damage does allow for balance.
These are just a few thoughts. Constructive feedback is welcome.
I hope I didn't come across as non constructive but I'm afraid all of your sugestions have the aim of weakening a profession into uselessness. Basically you want to lower ourdamage in PVP so that only our loot enhanced weapons do something other then annoy other players, give something that should belong to elite healers to junior healers, make half our weapons hurt us and decrease the chance of our weapons hitting..... Implemenation of any one of these things would hurt this profession even more then it already is but if all 4 of your sugestions were implemented, they might as well just delete that as a prof in SWG.
Jo'ran
neutrineaux
Mon Aug 16, 2004 1:29 pm
#24
DJODoc wrote:
I have a few thoughts on the subject from a non-CM perspective.
1. Poisons are an offensive "weapon" for CMs. Why don't they have the same 75% PvP reduction that everyone else has?
This has been addressed, but it really boils down to the difference between a direct damage weapon and a "DOT." a 75% reduction in poison damage effectively nullifies the poison in many, maybe most cases, largely due to regeneration rates. a rifle hit does its damage now, while a poison does some now, some more later, to reach a total effect. but clearly, some sort of mitigation is appropriate.
I remember reading a couple weeks ago TH mentioning on the boards or in a chat that it has something to do with the "heal code" not being as easily modified as the attacks code. And right now poison chucking falls into the heal logic. I think this would level the playing field for PvP significantly and many of the complaints would go away.
2. The devs made mention in one of their state of the game addresses that CM were supposed to be support characters.
certainly, that depends on your definition of "support." machinegun fire is "fire-support," but is obviously very lethal.
Yet to date they haven't seemed to make any changes to move toward that. Seems to me that CMs should be the profession doing the area heals on poisons and diseases, not doctors.
ithink most of us cm's agree with that. heck, many doc's agree with that!
CM's should have access to high grade area heals and target heals for poison and disease while at the same time be able to make lower quality poison/disease cures for people with some level of medic.
3. CMs who choose to throw area disease/poison should be vulnerable tothose poisons/diseasesthemselves.
this is a "friendly fire" argument.i personally agree with you. but it should not be limited to poisons, etc. when you use fullautoarea on a janta lair your friend is tanking, there should be a chance he will be hit. even single shots from snipers hit collateral targets. if friendly fire is to apply to cm's, it should apply to all weapons. that is not true in swg at present.
Since they technically are in the range of that poison. So CMs handling deadly poison/disease agents would have to be careful and not just chuck it as they are now. Or implement a timer visible only to the CM to let them know when the poison "container" will open. That would give them time to move out of it's radius.
4. Adding to point 3, I would like to see the implementation of apparatus that could be built into armor suits to improve poison disease resistance.
that would be cool. increased protection + increased encumberance. perhaps with limited use "filters" that cm's could make and sell.
Maybe give CMs and/or Doctors the schematic for optional armor components to resist poison/disease that they can sell to armorsmiths. Then CMs could wear armor that protected them while they threw their poisons.
These are just a few thoughts. Constructive feedback is welcome.
DJODoc
Mon Aug 16, 2004 1:49 pm
#25
Interesting points brought up. I must admit that initially I had not thought about friendly fire issues. I was thinking more in line with self inflicted damage. But I guess if I am going to bring up that topic for area poisons then friendly fire also has to be considered. And as much as I would love to see it, I know the griefing and problems in general that come with it so I retract my comment about CMs being affected by their own poisons/disease.
As for my comment on CM built poison/disease antidotes.I see no reason why poison antidotes can't be used by lower level medics. It doesn't take a great amount of skill. A buddy of mine has an allergy that requires him to carry around a shot that he has to give himself if he eats the food he is allergic to. He doesn't need to find a doctor to jab him in the leg, he does it himself. The military also has similar "emergency" shots that soldiers are instructed to self adminster. So in the SWG universe why can't normal people administer poison antidotes. The one idea I can suggest is that these antidotes should carry some side effect similar to a spice downer when used. That way people can't just keep popping heals without consequence. As for disease, I think that it should be limited to doctor treatment. But I also don't think it should stick as easily as it does.
" How annoying is a 100 tick every 10 seconds?that's just it, it's annoying but a 400 tick makes you take action to stop it..."
take what action? there currently is no way to stop it unless you are a doctor.
As for the reduction, something needs to be done. Stacked mind poisons just have no defence.
neutrineaux
Mon Aug 16, 2004 2:14 pm
#26
DJODoc wrote:
Interesting points brought up. I must admit that initially I had not thought about friendly fire issues. I was thinking more in line with self inflicted damage.
we do have mind cost for using the item, which is damage.
But I guess if I am going to bring up that topic for area poisons then friendly fire also has to be considered. And as much as I would love to see it, I know the griefing and problems in general that come with it so I retract my comment about CMs being affected by their own poisons/disease.
As for my comment on CM built poison/disease antidotes.I see no reason why poison antidotes can't be used by lower level medics. It doesn't take a great amount of skill. A buddy of mine has an allergy that requires him to carry around a shot that he has to give himself if he eats the food he is allergic to. He doesn't need to find a doctor to jab him in the leg, he does it himself. The military also has similar "emergency" shots that soldiers are instructed to self adminster. So in the SWG universe why can't normal people administer poison antidotes.
i think the answer here is the same as why can't combat medics hit people with swords... to have separate professions, you need some unique/exclusive skills. and administering battlefield antidotes to poison and disease would seem to me to fall into the combat medic realm. if you give that to doctors, or even just plain medics, eventually you have the problem we have now:a lack of significant unique abilities to justify the profession cost in skill points.
The one idea I can suggest is that these antidotes should carry some side effect similar to a spice downer when used. That way people can't just keep popping heals without consequence. As for disease, I think that it should be limited to doctor treatment. But I also don't think it should stick as easily as it does.
" How annoying is a 100 tick every 10 seconds?that's just it, it's annoying but a 400 tick makes you take action to stop it..."
take what action? there currently is no way to stop it unless you are a doctor.
well, you might need to have a doctor along, or have some doctor skills in your template, if you plan to pvp or otherwise get poisoned. and this is where you find an answer to "what action?" the doctor -- whether you or someone else -- heals you.
this is where i thinkthe "uber dood3s" have one of their their biggest problems: they really want to have a defense stacker template to exploit the stackable defenses, but getting enough doc to heal poison is costly in skill points. so in frustration, and after getting hammered, they just want poison to go away.
As for the reduction, something needs to be done. Stacked mind poisons just have no defence.
you will find many in this form who agree that the mind pool damage issue, not just mind poisons, needs to be addressed. riflemen and swordsmen and fencers, etc., all aim for it. and while they cannot "stack," they can all hit at once. 10 combat medics throwing 10 area mind poison "c's" have the same effect as one cm. not so with 10 riflemen.