Combat Medic Archive
Thread: Disease = Greifing?
If you have ever read Bartle's "Hearts, Clubs, diamond,spades: players who suit MUDS" you need to,the type he calls "killer" is actually the griefer, according to Bartle if he rewrote the paper today that is what we would call them. If you want a newer study on this read "Developing online games: an insider view"; this even includes a bunch of info from the devs of SWG, good ideas that they decided they would not impletement, but are now saying they will.
Anyways a griefer is anyone who performs asks to intentially degrade another players gaming experience in the game world.
In PvP combat and with everything being 1-3 shots to kill a player,disease is a pure griefing. You can disease someone all you want and it is not going to decrease the 1-3 shots needed to kill them, they are not going to stay away because they are wounded 1/3 of thier stat because it just does not matter. However what you are causing them to do is spend time in the hospital after the PvP action is over, this is not adding to thier gaming experience so you are griefing.
Now doing it to pets would rate in the tactics area. since they take large amounts ofhits to kill decreasing thier max stats is a valid responce, why this also requries the owner to spend time getting them healed it also effects how operational they are in the battle, cutting them down to 1/3 has a major effect.
If they make it so that it takes a good 30+ hits to kill another player then I would aggree that diseases go being a griefer tool to being a valid tactic, but until then the only use of them is to grief.
I would defend knockdowns(as a userI do thing they need a massivetimer nerf)and using even wounding pets as valid tactics and not griefing because have an effect on the combat. With how quick it is to kill a player in PvP disease does not matter in combat(ok maybe it saves 1 shot) however its only use is that it forces people to spend downtime.
As I said once it hits the point where players can last 30+ non-basic hits then griefing goes from causing just grief to being a valid way to remove people from a battle.
right Kamat,
if combat pace ever moves away from one shot kills, diseases will have a use, since it might realy make a difference, if you are wounded or not.
until than, the only thing that wounds do is make you go see a Doc once you are tired of one-shooting and getting one-shot no matter how your condition is.
and causing downtime to some-one while it has no effect on the actual and current battle is what at least i call griefing.
the way poisons and diseases currently are, is perfect for encounter where people can stand for 1-2 minutes and skills (personal and character), tactics and a little luck decide on the outcome. they are not designed to work in the current one-shot-kill system though, so they need to change either thing.
keeping the pace as it is makes poisons seriously underpowered and diseases a griefing tool
lowering the pace of combat would mean they would have to seriously nerf CH pets in PvP
CH are that huge in PvP as u can kill the weak handler...
the scary PvPs are smugglers who spam Panicshot...u will never counter attack..
BHs who spam flameshot (350+ damage and 80 wounds every 15 secs over 2 mins) and who have pistol speed and range mind damage not to mention underhand knockdown spam
Pistoleers and TKA who spam knockdown
Rifleman who basically if ne good will 1 hit anyone (although this is not a bad as the other classes since they actually are hindered by min range and slow attack rate)
All DoTs were supposed to switch to wounds when you got incapped, sometime... or it was proposed and hasn't made it in (may never?). I remember Holo posting it in one of the "I get incapped 3x by the same bleed threads."
With this in mind, Disease becomes a matter of strategy. SWG players seem to think more in tactics. That guy that has to go to the hospital, is out of te BIG fight for a while.
When costs are lowered and we see more factioned targets that can be blown up, that guy not being in the area, becomes a very important issue.
If I want to blow up your imperial medium outpost, I better make sure there are no imperials around. incap, incap, incap does me no good. You are right back into the fight.
Massive wounds however... your side has effectively lost 1 person for X amount of time.
Even if the bigger bases have their own med and clone centers.
1.) Every medic/doc healing wounds, is 1 less on the front lines,
2.) eventually they will run out of woundpack E's
3.) if everyone is seriously wounded, who's going to stop us from destroying the base target?
CM's have a lot of value in PVP, as planned, but not in PVP as it is now. AE doesn't work well, if at all... and there are no PVP targets but cities.
When the GCW moves beyond roving gangs attacking cities, and have quite a few bug fixes, disease will be a very key piece of assulting fortifications (as it has historically). With there being some effects coming soon for being in the GCW, strategic ownership of dungeons and base placement... keeping enemies from fighting becomes very important.
Right now, the guy that is diseased and has to go to the hospital will complain (and maybe always will).. But it still isn't griefing. for, every diseased guy, is one less guy you have to fight in the streets (possibly giving you a numerical advantage) and that is always good stategy.
Once the new strategic elements of PVP are added in the big patch (if they aren't too buggy), and CM stuff gets bugfixed... expect them to be very effective in the "big picture".. also expect for CM's to be targets of choice... turn off those tags
-T
agreed in some situations disease will not be grieving say a PA vs PA war...a base siege, a battlefield...
but as PvP is functioning right now, consisting of mostly raids, its turned out to be grieving...
granted the SWG devs imagined huge massive battles of lots of people fighting at one time when they imagined PvP. Hence the ability to make a large portion of the opposing army unable to fight would have huge strategic value.
However as it is right now ith PvP lasting mere secs between small and med sized raiding grp, disease is just grieving...
when u start getting people holing up in their bases, the CM's ability to basically use non LOS to throw AE disease into a base and letting the wounds just build up over time will be strategic. However, this is far from the case in PvP with all th bugs that are occuring with faction bases...
But until the basis of what PvP is right now changes, disease is pretty much a grieving tool...this isnt to say that it will always stay this way
Mster Pistoleer I talked to told me that it's very rarely he hits with stopping shot for 1000 dmg, it has to be almost ideal condition.
Just because it's POSSIBLE to hit for so much does not mean it happens often.
> at pistol speed which is far faster than the heal speed of any medic.
Only 2x as fast.
> and ne BH would is smart would knock u down first so u couldnt heal prone then kill ur partner and then finish u...
Except he has to have LOS on me and I don't need it for heals, as you said someplace else first shot is very important, if he used his to knock down someone, I run out - shot him and heal knocked down person to full - BH (and smugler) lose.
> lol funny thing is a good BH would have already killed you both is a couple of eyeshots for more that 800+ damage at pistol speed and range.
Again I talked to a few master BHs and they all told me that 800dmg is RARE occurance, he said on average it comes out as 500, so he will not be able to one-shot anyone, but will be knocked down instead.
Really the most reliable tactic for BH is knockdown - eye shot - eye shot (hince my comlaint that knockdown needs to be turned down a bit).
Also are you wearing helmet in PvP ? I wear ST helmet or Chitin with imprved energy protection helmet in battles, it really cuts damage down.
> until buffs are fixed in this game, its gonna be first hit in wins for the most part...
One-on-One : yes, it will be.
Group - on - Group : smarter group wins.
> and most likely u havent met a master smuggler who knows his stuff...panicshot will own groups of people...ive seen it happen...basically no one hit by the panic shot can counter attack and its cone AOE...
No I have to admit I have not yet met master smuggler, however (just like against PBAOE in DAoC) there are effective tactics against it, and (cone in particular) it's very simple - spread out.
I personally can't wait for carabiners with AOE Knockdown to start using it to a full potential, I predict that in a few weeks for a while a group with carabiner+CM/doctor/chef+any other damage dealer will be so hard to kill that people will forget all about CH
Also what do you think about Master CM / Master Carabiner spec ?
Unless you get a jump on that guy he will simply devastate whole groups of people (are knockdown - area poison- area knockdown...)
In a battlefields there is zero value to use desease because once you are dead - you are OUT of battlefield but fully healed.
if u die...other wise ur still in it...
not to hard to drag and stim in the BFs i do it all the time
It's faster to do DB then to decease
There are very few professions who can actually kill you with one shot:
Rifleman - needs a long time to set up perfect shot
BH - with flameshot
No other clases can deliver punch hard enough to kill a person with one shot, though many come close with 2-shots and others can deliver small shots very fast.
The real problem are classes that can spam knockdowns (smugler, BH and high level carabines). BH and smugler knockdown style has medium damage multiplier and can be outhealed by combat medic, so combat medic + another person can kill BH/smuggler assuming he does not attack CM first.
During one battle our group of 5 players had a 40 minutes streak during which none of us died, and we killed about 20 rebels a piece - we had combat medic, CH (mid level), BH (low level), novice marksman and novice marksman/master medic.
We had BH/marksman stay side by side with backup medic right behind them, CM and CH on the side, our attackers had smuggler and BH both spamming knockdown, so I'd wait for them to attack someone, then heal them up as I bleed-shot and another marksman back up, then with top-off heal we'd dispatch rest of the rebels. The battle of course would've went the other way if they had rifleman backing them up from far ahead, but they did no have one so we won.
That's to illustrate the point that really one-shot-kill is not as common as you think it is, knockdowns and wounds are far more devastating.
pistoleers and stopping shot with a good gun will hit u for 1000+ damage at pistol speed which is far faster than the heal speed of any medic.
and ne BH would is smart would knock u down first so u couldnt heal prone then kill ur partner and then finish u...and if the BH is really good...could spam knockdown on both of u before u could really do anything...lol funny thing is a good BH would have already killed you both is a couple of eyeshots for more that 800+ damage at pistol speed and range.
until buffs are fixed in this game, its gonna be first hit in wins for the most part...
and most likely u havent met a master smuggler who knows his stuff...panicshot will own groups of people...ive seen it happen...basically no one hit by the panic shot can counter attack and its cone AOE...