Combat Medic Archive

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fletcherreed wrote:

What I should have said is that dabbling healers should be balanced. Master's in their respective fields should be doing what they do now but 4000 CM and 4000 jedi healing is too much FOTM

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da-bro wrote:
I have said this before, but due to the responses, it would seme it needs posting again.

While I have used Jedi Healer in some examples, this has nothing to do with my points and the udnerlying issue of healing in the game as things stand. Please try to absorb this fact before trying to make up false motives as to why I am posting. Please do not use Jedi Healer in the future. If you want to make points please use the appropriate situations instead of a class that is pushing for nerfs on Combat Medics and we wont make up "false motives" about your posting.

To make this as simple as possible and to make as clear as humanly possible what my comments are in reference to, pay close attention to the following sentances.

It is the intention of the combat upgrade to make the game as balanced as possible, with no template being stronger or weaker than any other. In a sense yes. Its based off abilities of equal values based on a group role structure. Some can do damage, some can heal damage.

All you have to do is is pick any 2 possible combat template builds and pit them against each other in a one on one scenario to discover if there are any glaring imbalances. This is false and misleading. Template builds are multiple professions, not a single profession. They do not take into consideration any role withing a group structure. By piting two templates together you are comparing apples and oranges. The outcome ofa fight between them is irrelavent. Smugglers have long mezzes. CM's have short mezzes. Commandos have area affect weapons. Carbineers have a single area attack. The abilities all balance out in a linear fashion.

Take any build you want, that does not have any Medic, Doctor or Combat Medic skills in the template. Now fight someone who has any degree of healing, could be Medic 0020, Combat Medic 4000 or a MAster Doctor build, it doesn't matter. 99% of the time, the build with Medic in the template will win.This is true in any templatein any MMOin existance.Healing mitigates damage dealt.Not having any healing ability means that damage takenaccumulates until an incap results. This is truein PvP and PvE.The whole premise of the healer class was to keep themselves and their group members alive. Not to engage in 1 vs. 1 fighting. In a 1vs.1 fight amaster healer has a powerful ability.With a group that same power often doesn't seem like enough when tending to yourself and the other 7 members of your group.

This highlights something which can be viewed in 2 ways:

1. Healing is overpowered when used on yourself. Only if you're talking about a 1vs1 situation. You are totally disregarding the group situation which SOE is currently trying to promote.

2. Templates that don't include Medic, don't have access to abilities good enough to make up for it. They have access to different skills, professions, and weapons to increase their offensive and defensive abilities. If you're suggesting that healing should play a very minor role please be more blunt about it.

In either case, the issue is the same and there are also 2 ways to fix this issue:

1. Do something about using heals on yourself. Reduced effectiveness, or increased cool down timers for a few examples. Healing includes healing yourself. In a group situation you have to tend to others and yourself equally. Increasing cool down timers would really affect group support badly. When a healer is taking hits why should they get a reduced effect on the heal when one of their group members gets a full heal?

2. Completely change the structure and abilities of every combat profession except for Doctor, Combat Medic and Medic.

Now which is the best option? Number 1 of course because its less work and achieves exactly the same result as number 2, because they are both tackling the same issue, just from the opposite side.

I will instantly call anyone who thinks any combat template build that does not include any Medic in it, or any combat template that has less healing power/efficiency than another are equal, a liar. No, you're focusing on a single aspect of the game which is 1vs1 PvP. I suggest you consider the entire game first.

An overwhelming majority of fights are decided solely on who has the most powerful and efficient healing and this is what is unbalancing. Healing has a far too heavy influence on the outcome of a duel between any 2 combat templates. Duel? Need I go on? Duels aren't PvP. Duels are ego displays. Duels are Jedi/BH mini-games. You've just circumvented 75% of the game mechanics to push you nerf idea. Congradulations!

Now, to further illustrate my intent and rationale, take note of the following.

All of the above rings true with Jedi too. Jedi healing also needs to be subject to diminished effectiveness when used on yourself. No amount of skills can make up for not having healing in your template and for balance to be achieved, healing needs not be a required skill. Healing isn't a required skill. Its nice to have especially in a DUEL but isn't necessary. I know a number of Jedi who dont have any healing who are very successful in group PvP thanks to the efforts of group support healers like myself. They get to augment their offensive abilities without sacrificing points for Jedi healing trees. I agree that healing below master should take penalites and/or not be as powerful as a master class. Both jedi and non-jedi.

I rest my case.

Now for the ugly part of my post:

1. Nowhere does it say you can only post on the forums related to your characters skills. If I have an opinion or thoughts on an issue I would like to become involved in, I am freely welcome to do so. I never said you couldn't post on these forums. I just told you to go away. Soo go away.

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Yoshiyuki wrote:

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TenshiHanaKinu wrote:

While the Jedi's whining, can we have a nerf on Saber Armor-Break?

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Agreed. BTW i've only seen jedi cry about Medics and doctors. Hmm they are bitter about their healing nerf.

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Message Edited by TenshiHanaKinu on 08-01-2005 06:38 AM

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TenshiHanaKinu wrote:

Well then... nerf player damage against healers.

Picking up healing means sacrificing something else for the ability to heal. And the ability to damage regens a whole lot faster than the ability to heal.

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Message Edited by Quandry on 08-01-2005 07:07 AM

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da-bro wrote:
I have said this before, but due to the responses, it would seme it needs posting again.

While I have used Jedi Healer in some examples, this has nothing to do with my points and the udnerlying issue of healing in the game as things stand. Please try to absorb this fact before trying to make up false motives as to why I am posting.

To make this as simple as possible and to make as clear as humanly possible what my comments are in reference to, pay close attention to the following sentances.

It is the intention of the combat upgrade to make the game as balanced as possible, with no template being stronger or weaker than any other.

All you have to do is is pick any 2 possible combat template builds and pit them against each other in a one on one scenario to discover if there are any glaring imbalances.

Take any build you want, that does not have any Medic, Doctor or Combat Medic skills in the template. Now fight someone who has any degree of healing, could be Medic 0020, Combat Medic 4000 or a MAster Doctor build, it doesn't matter. 99% of the time, the build with Medic in the template will win.

This highlights something which can be viewed in 2 ways:

1. Healing is overpowered when used on yourself.

2. Templates that don't include Medic, don't have access to abilities good enough to make up for it.

In either case, the issue is the same and there are also 2 ways to fix this issue:

1. Do something about using heals on yourself. Reduced effectiveness, or increased cool down timers for a few examples.

2. Completely change the structure and abilities of every combat profession except for Doctor, Combat Medic and Medic.

Now which is the best option? Number 1 of course because its less work and achieves exactly the same result as number 2, because they are both tackling the same issue, just from the opposite side.

I will instantly call anyone who thinks any combat template build that does not include any Medic in it, or any combat template that has less healing power/efficiency than another are equal, a liar.

An overwhelming majority of fights are decided solely on who has the most powerful and efficient healing and this is what is unbalancing. Healing has a far too heavy influence on the outcome of a duel between any 2 combat templates.

Now, to further illustrate my intent and rationale, take note of the following.

All of the above rings true with Jedi too. Jedi healing also needs to be subject to diminished effectiveness when used on yourself. No amount of skills can make up for not having healing in your template and for balance to be achieved, healing needs not be a required skill.

I rest my case.

Now for the ugly part of my post:

1. Nowhere does it say you can only post on the forums related to your characters skills. If I have an opinion or thoughts on an issue I would like to become involved in, I am freely welcome to do so.

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We're medical professionals. We heal, it's what we do well. You're a jedi, with healing abilities, not a medical professional. An amateur healer, if you will.The moment things change, and you fail to kill a normal profession in 3 seconds, you cry nerf.

I traded ALOT of ranged speed, accuracy, and damage to get CM. It was a freebie, I did give up ALOT. Do the same with your template, and stop whining.

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da-bro wrote:


While you cannot heal on your back, you get multiple heals on different timers and can heal more damage with better efficiency (mind cost) than Jedi healers.

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Efficiency? Non-Jedi healers may be able to spit out the heals fast, but very few can heal for 1500 damage. With +17 in Medical efficiency clothes, I don't think my Bacta Shots exceed 1200, and my Bacta Toss and Spray hit for about 800-900. Even though the mind costs are less for non-Jedi healers, after we have to spam two heals, we take just as big or bigger mind hit.

Do not forget about that, Jedi, before you call for nerfs on the only feature of this game (healing) that keeps non-Jedi from being completely swarmed and cut out of the Galactic Civil War.

Non-Jedi don't have to grind as long as Jedi, and they aren't as powerful in the movies or books, but WE ALL deserve a place in the Galactic Civil War is fun.

If non-Jedi heals are reduced, then the habit of killing non-Jedi first in PvP will return because of their poor survivability. It is no fun being targeted first, dying, then watching the GCW battle you were fighting in reduce into a gigantic Jedi-on-Jedi duelfest. It is like hell opened up and spit up the souls of all of the dead Jedi from the past right on our server.

Somebody contact George Lucas because what is happening in this game is ludicrous.

Message Edited by Ternque01 on 08-01-2005 09:41 AM

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fletcherreed wrote:

Its just too powerful right now for any profession... Its practically required for any type of PvP. The point of the CU was to make almost any template viable but if you don't have a good 25 sp invested in medic, you are screwed. The intention with CM and Doc were to be support professions. Especially with CM, they have debuffs to go along with the 1200 healing.

What I suggest is to beaf up player to player healing and nerf the player healing himself. Since BH and jedi cannot be supported by other players, jedi healing needs to takea hit too.Either increase mind costs or nerf the amount of healing. To have one or two professions ABSOLUTELY necessary in one's template toPvP is insane.

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da-bro wrote:
Again, everyone is makingf aasumptions about me and Jedi. Do you guys know how many times I have lost in a 1 on 1 as a Jedi versus a non Jedi?

None. I am undefeated against normal professions. I have NEVER been beaten by a Bounty Hunter.

So give the "nerf calls because you can't win" rubbish a rest.

Yes there is more to the game than 1 on 1 duels, but if a template with Medic in it is not balanced with templates with no Medic in a duel scenario then the following statement becomes true.

A whole group of Combat Medic/Rifleman builds is stronger than a group containing only one Combat Medic and a mixture of other professions. This is not balance, it is he who has the strongest and most efficienct healing wins. He who has the best mezzers or he who has the best damage dealers doesn't count for anything if you haven't got as many healers as the other group.

Every combat profession has abilities that contribute to a group role.

A tank can take the damage for the group. He can also pick up Doctor to heal himself. This leaves him lacking in damage, but the way the game stands currently, their damage weakness is not nearly enough compared to the healing ability.

A damage dealer can deal damage for the group, they can also pickup Combat Medic to heal themselves. Now in this scenario, the build should be sufficiently lacking in defence, which again, as things stand, due to the strength of healing yourself, is not the case.

So there you have it, having healing makes up for not being a damage dealer or having tanking abilities. No combination of other roles can make up for not having healing.

For example, its easy for Combat Medics and Jedi to solo Krayt dragons. Anyone without healing has a far more difficult time. Every template needs to have a weakness, the weakness of not having healing is much stronger than the weakness of not having damage dealing or defensive abilities but having healing.

For an example of a true group role ability that does not overpower a group role on a one to one basis, look at area taunt from Swordsman. Awesome group role ability, but serves zero use in a duel scenario or a 1 on 1 PvE scenario. Now look at healing, another awesome group role ability, however this can be used on a 1 to 1 basis and this makes a template with healing far superior to one without. Your group role shouold do what it says on the tin - shine in a group scenario, not make you a duelist alpha class.

Comparing normal professions to Jedi is a moot point, because Jedi is intended to be an alpha class, so quit comparing non Jedi abilities to Jedi abilities, this topic also has absolutely nothing to do with that so lets drop it. The only thing that Jedi has that is relevant to this topic, is that the same condition exists, whereby no amount of other abilities can make up for not having healing. So Jedi also needs the same balancing in that respect that healing for everyone else needs.

If I am calling for nerfs to make myself stronger, then why am I doing so on my own skill set? Thats because I want a balanced game as far as template choices go. I am man enough to admit that I need to give up certain things for the greater good. A quality that not many people here seem to have.

All you have to do is stop thinking about yourself and look at the bigger picture. Do you really think its fair that someone without healing doesn't stand a chance against you? Is their template not worth as much as yours? Did they not put in as much work? Do they pay the same monthly fees?

Everyone deserves to be equal on the battlefield.

The group role of healers and their strength in that role is completely fine and does not need to change. The only problem is that your group role is far too good and important to be able to be used to best something in a one on one scenario. It basicaly means that you do not require a group for tasks that any non healing profession do. You should require the other group roles, as much as they require healers. Its a two way street.

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I spend 78 skillpoints to get CM 4000, and Jedi spend 52 to get Healer 4000. If I were to NOT count the 6 FS trees required to be a Jedi, Jedi only spend 28 skillpoints to get 1500 heals.

Second, you appear to be someone with a good grasp on many situations. Take the time to become familiar with the current face of PvP in the civil war. Before CM and Doc healing was beefed up, non-Jedi were ALWAYS the first targets in engagements, and it eroded the fun that non-Jedi had to the point that many STOPPED PvP'ing.

To a very large degree, the ability of non-Jedi to HEAL and stay in a fight has returned the enjoyability, so that the numerous Jedi wouldn't be the only ones to enjoy some degree of survivability =/

I understand your sentiment to kill the ability for ALL players to be able to heal themselves, hoping to achieve a greater degree of group roles in combat, but I think the system works pretty well right now.

If a player picks up 4000 Doc or CM, it allows them staying power. They won't be as offensively or defensively potent, as they sink 78 skillpoints into healing. Furthermore, I do think the overall damage output that occurs on the battlefield is waaaay too high to even make the decision on nerfing healing oneself =/

It would be impossible for the healing of an entire group to rest on only a few individuals at the rate damage is delt out. Their minds would drain very quickly.