Combat Medic Archive
Thread: Dev Response to CM top 5 issue List
Hey Pahd,
Since you're stepping down (fine job, by the way), how about just spilling all the stuff they told you that you weren't allowed to pass on to us?
Hmm... and here I thought it was "Next thread cycle on Pern" 
nyuk-nyuk-nyuk...
Okay, you "glass half empty" types out there...! The devs know about WTP's (we the player) concerns with CMs...! They have given WTP a reply, which is far more than I can say about certain other games, and forums.
"It'll be fixed as soon as they can get to it, and not at the expense of breaking something else in the game", is how I read their reply. But then I am ever the optimist in even the most dire of circumstances too. 
I just wonder that if the nay sayers cry this much over the CM, just how much worse it must be on the Jedi threads..? 
====================
Asplane sez: Patience, young payer.... oh wait... that's player?
And I just wanted to add here that on that trhead on the Corre forum I did respond to the above by saying that none of that stuff "stung". I pretty much agree with all of it and I'm not too sure that there are manyh other Docs who would greatly disagree.
As Pahdbacca mentioned there probably is little inthe way of true guidance as to where CMs fall (well, we've been saying that for quite some time, really.) Personally I stand on the support side, but.... well I've always had a secret desire that CM would be the perfect offensive compliment to being a Doc, but while DoTs are nice, they don't quite fit the bill. I'm constantly amazed by what the combat professions are capable of pulling off ins a short amount of time in the way of damge over the relatively piddly amount DoTs do in the same timeframe. Maybe it's more of a balance between combat and support that is needed but somehow doesn't seem to be exactly hitting the mark. I just don't know how to look at it anymore, really.
Zarlor wrote:And I just wanted to add here that on that trhead on the Corre forum I did respond to the above by saying that none of that stuff "stung". I pretty much agree with all of it and I'm not too sure that there are manyh other Docs who would greatly disagree.
As Pahdbacca mentioned there probably is little inthe way of true guidance as to where CMs fall (well, we've been saying that for quite some time, really.) Personally I stand on the support side, but.... well I've always had a secret desire that CM would be the perfect offensive compliment to being a Doc, but while DoTs are nice, they don't quite fit the bill. I'm constantly amazed by what the combat professions are capable of pulling off ins a short amount of time in the way of damge over the relatively piddly amount DoTs do in the same timeframe. Maybe it's more of a balance between combat and support that is needed but somehow doesn't seem to be exactly hitting the mark. I just don't know how to look at it anymore, really.
In the spirit of that, mebbe we should become less "King of the DOT" and have, say grief-based diseases, replaced with some sort of raw damage/state effect weapons. Mebbe a complete revamping of the CM arsenal:
1. poison becomes a raw damage (specifically health? maybe different poisons for different bars, possibly with state effects built in), one time hit along the lines of grenades or dart gun or whatever.
2. disease becomes what poison is today
3. added weapons to induce state effects (higher level should equal higher/multiple state effects)
This would accomplish multiple goals:
1. Make CM more versatile and less of a "one trick pony". If, in the above example, poisons were converted to a raw damage weapon, then either the components need to become cheaper (by an order of magnitude), or the charges increased.
2. Make us more the antithesis of a doctor, by giving us the ability to apply state effects, while they retain the ability to heal them. I still like the vaccination idea for doctors as well.
My primary reservation with these suggestions is that as I imagine playing this character, I start to feel more like a BH than a combat medic. However, I'm not entirely sure that's a bad thing, since I always viewed BH as one of the most versatile professions.
I see the current problem as two-fold:
1. We heal, but how many different ways can you heal a group? We are already the most effective group healers in the game.
2. We do damage (which we finally get credit for), but there is no up-front damage available in the CM tree. This means that, outside of a group, we have no survivability as a pure CM vs anything that survives the first tick. If this is the dev's intention, then make that statement and be done with it. As it stands, all we have are DOTs and healing, and the DOTs have been nerfed pretty heavily at this point. CM is very anti-solo.
What I would most like to see is the replacement of diseases with some more varied weapons in the arsenal.
JediQuic wrote:
Pahdbacca, Did you get any responce yet on Permission to re-post What the Devs said CM's(or role or something)are from the correspondant forum? I am very interested to see what they have intended for us....as are we all i'm sure
No, I have yet to getpermission to post anything on how the Dev's view CMs and their role in SWG. The closest I got to it was one of the devs using Combat Medics as an example (in a thread about another profession) of how the (CM) profession evolved to become something beyond what they (the Devs)thought it would be. I used that quote in a new post to ask about thoughts on the CM role.
Yesh wrote:
Hey Pahd,
Since you're stepping down (fine job, by the way), how about just spilling all the stuff they told you that you weren't allowed to pass on to us?
I gonna give you all that I think I can right now (and probably a litte bit more.)
The following is what I asked of the Correspondent/Dev community. Anything posted in Red are points I thought to make later in that thread or things I should offer now.
So the question is, are combat medics a support profession or a combat profession?
As it stands right now, there seems to be a trend where the number of master CM who consider themselves a combat class is about even with the number of master CMs who consider themselves a support class. When counting the number of players who are not considering mastering the profession, players that consider CMs a combat class far and above outnumber thosewho see it as a support class. (actually went through a couple of threads and counted, it is pretty close out of the masters)
Long story made short, If you ask CMs how they see their role in SWG right now, It would be as a combat class. Let me preface the next part of my post (seems like a thesis, really) by stating my personal opinon acting as a player, and not that of a correspondent, is that CMs should play more of a support role. However, I find the combat role faction arguement very compelling.
Case #1- CMs are a combat profession that...
- has had a reduction in each of the last 2 patches of their main damage causing ability. Many realize that it is in the best interest of overal game balance that these reductions take place, but they are still reductions. (The inabilty to incap and range reduction changes) (For some reason Range reduction of DoTsdid not make it into this patch)
- for all intents and purposes needs skill boxes outside of its main profession and/or pre-req skills in order to finish a fight. (yes, I know with novice marksman you can use a d18 pistol...but even with an active poison and a HAM value at one, I have tried to take down a person wearing armor using a d18...it ain't fun)
- has no mitigation or defensive bonuses (mitigation for CMs is quickly starting to gather interest on the forums)
Case #2- CMs are a support profession that (sorry Zarlor, this is gonna sting)...
- has the ability to heal large amounts of damage over long ranges when in large groups. However, when not in large groups the healing ability is very similar to that which can be accomplished by a single doctor making sure to stay close to 1 or 2 other players or 'tanks'.
- The ability to use 10 experimentation points on the end product for ranged and AoE stims, but only the ability spend 5 points on the components for those same stims.
- has the ability to mind heal...for a limited time. General consensus is that the wound cost for mind heal is a painful burden to bear.
- beyond range/Aoe and mind healing capabilities, CMs only have an increased mobility on the battlefield to compare with the support type abilities of cure states (including diseases and poisons), res abilities, and stat enhancement abilities of the doctor.
This is why more and more CMs consider themselves a combat class and not a support class.
It costs169 skill points to master CM. This is tied for the 2nd most of any profession with Commando and only Bounty Hunter costs more. 169 points is 29 points more than what it takes to master Doctor. If a CM wants to fully experiment on their healing med components, it takes another 20 points to buy novice doctor and the crafting line. Can a Master CM be more effective as a support player in a large group? Yes! In a small group?Maybe, but not much more effective. More effective enough to justify spending 29+20=49 skill points?
Suppose a CM wants to spend the same amount of points towards combat that a BH does. Using 217 skill points a CM can master their profession, spend 20 points to get novice level in a ranged elite combat profession and spend the rest of the 217 on getting 2 complete lines of that elite profession. While a master BH should still be able to whipe the floor with the CM, they would have to be very careful about it. The master CM now has the ability to DoT, can heal themselves of much damage (except mindheal on themselves) and has enough defensive bonuses and/or offensive punch to live long enough to finish off a player wearing composite armor.
I know it is backwards logic, but CMs think that because it is easier to be on par with combat classes for the amount of skill points they spend, they are a combat class and should get even more combat oriented bonuses. I have also noticed that a number of the older master CM that post on the forum (and who seem to have played support based CMs) are retiring and keeping their master Doc status or going on to master Doctor. (What I am actually trying to say here but am having trouble finding the words to say it is.... I think that because combat based combat medics seem to get more bang for the buck in the amount of skill points they spend, I understand why they think of it as a combat class...and I agee with them. Especially since in the support role CMs seem less capable than Doctorswhile spending more skill points than Doctors)
So, here is where we are at right now...
I have asked in more than one thread as to what the role of CMs in SWG should be. More than once the answer to this type of question has been 'well, what do you think it should be?' So I posted why the CM can be seen as either a combat or a support-type profession. Until a role is decided upon, by either the Devs or the playerbase, each new perk or luv that CMs recieve will probably involve twice the justification because of the uncertainty of the role of CMs. Why give mitigation or defensive bonusesto a support class? Why give rez or poison resist buffs to a combat class?
IMO, CMs either need to be able to fight as well as a combat class spending 169 skill points, support as well as a support class spending 169 skill points, or do a little less than each but still good enough to make it worth spending 169 skill points. At the current time, i do not think that CMs fit in any of these 3 catagories.
Unfortunately, I will not be on the boards posting that much over break. I will be compining all the data from those polls you all took and leaving lots of info and links for my replacement where they can easily find it.
P.S.- I am aware that some of you may be a little disappointed at the top 5 resonse. It is not an excuse, but if you look at some of the other professions, there is a lot of the same type of response. Much effort has been going into vehicles, mounts, cities, vehicle fixes, vendor fixes, and city drift fixes. CMs were not singled out in any way shape or form for this cycle of top 5 responses.
Message Edited by Pahdbacca on 12-23-2003 03:25 AM
I am finding as i come closer to mastering cm (right now im 4/0/3/4) that the class is a bit anti-solo where as if you look at a CM or BH they are good either group or solo. But so far from what i have seen i like the class though in pve it sucks i cant even poision a friggin krettle but yet i can poison a dragon a lot easier (still tring to figure that one out). The one thing i really dont like is the enabilty to at least incap a PC with my poisons or even a npc (would come in so handy if it would DB a special when you get incaped by a mob)
thats my two cents on the subject (oh and would it kill people to put more berrys up on the bazaar? LOL)
Don't know if anyone has mentioned this (I haven't seen it mentioned anywhere), but what about this for the incap solution. Change the poisons to be just Health, Action, and Mind. When an incap occurs, the poison then starts in on the related secondary attributes until the poison wears off. So if you get hit with a health poison, it attacks your health first, you get incapped, then when you recover it starts in on the strength. When that attribute gets to 0 you get incapped again andit starts in on the constitution. If all 3 attributes for that category get brought to 0, you die.
Same with bleeds, and other DOTs.
Gallion wrote:
A quick note. In small group situations, where you say that a CM heals as well as a doctor who stays close to his groupmates, really, a combat medic only heals as well as a MEDIC who stays within range of his groupmates. At best, a master medic with the full experimentation tree from doctor. But even that template has the advantage of state heals for dizzy, blind, stun, and intimidate. thats only 95 skill points if I did my math right...
I totally disagree here. I've had area Cs heal upwards of 2500 pts on critters, and ranged D/Es for upwards of 3k from nowhere near "danger" range. The only advantage that I see doctors getting --in actual combat situations-- is state heals (dizzy,stun,etc...) and compared to being able to instantly heal the mind of your melee tanker, I'll go with the mind heal.