Combat Medic Archive
Thread: Please Help Me Out Here....
Gnuut
Thu Jul 29, 2004 12:53 am
#14
Do not ever ever try to edit my posts for me or try to state I have said something different than what I have. My supposed comment above was a cynical remark on how you discounted DOT weapons as not being able to be compared to CM meds. My actual comment was "You better thank the DEVs they didn't give CMs the ability to apply fire too." It is that type of worthless spinning that ruins any credibility you may have had. Now go away troll.
Chabian wrote:
Gnuut wrote:
) Why not give CMs the ability to apply fire too.
Another thing, how about moving fire healing to Master Doctor and giving commando's the ability to AOE Fire DoT's with Proton grendades and have them tick for 1000 damage every 10 seconds in the mind pool. Do you see how this might become overpowering?
- Takai
Pahdbacca
Thu Jul 29, 2004 12:58 am
#15
Gnuut wrote:
Do not ever ever try to edit my posts for me or try to state I have said something different than what I have. My supposed comment above was a cynical remark on how you discounted DOT weapons as not being able to be compared to CM meds. My actual comment was "You better thank the DEVs they didn't give CMs the ability to apply fire too." It is that type of worthless spinning that ruins any credibility you may have had. Now go away troll.
Chabian wrote:
Gnuut wrote:
) Why not give CMs the ability to apply fire too.
Another thing, how about moving fire healing to Master Doctor and giving commando's the ability to AOE Fire DoT's with Proton grendades and have them tick for 1000 damage every 10 seconds in the mind pool. Do you see how this might become overpowering?
- Takai
My thoughts exactly Gnuut.... I suddenly regret giving the impression that there was anything worth discussing in this thread by posting in it.
Chabian
Thu Jul 29, 2004 12:59 am
#16
sorry , i mis-quoted you - I take responsibility in that.
What ruins your credibility is the "There is no permadeath, only PWNAGE". When your older and realize just how much of a jackass you sound coming off writing things of this nature, you'll feel what the rest of us have for a year.
You still avoided my 3 previous questions? Where's the spin now?
- Takai
What ruins your credibility is the "There is no permadeath, only PWNAGE". When your older and realize just how much of a jackass you sound coming off writing things of this nature, you'll feel what the rest of us have for a year.
You still avoided my 3 previous questions? Where's the spin now?
- Takai
Morath360
Thu Jul 29, 2004 1:20 pm
#17
Gnuut wrote:
1) CM does not need changed because DPS is in fact low. -This has been refuted so well that it is laughable to even bring up. For example, do the numbers as a DPS calc over 5 minutes instead of 10 seconds.
This is your opinion not fact. Affecting enough players to calculate a high DPS is one side of the argument as no one ever takes into account just how much a buffed player can regenrate per second.
I honestly do not see your point on this. Regen rate is inconsequential to the argument or actually hurts your argument. Are you trying to say that a person can sit and regen faster than the poison can do its damage? Are you trying to say that factoring in regen rate lowers your dps under other combat professions? Take the 5 minute example. If you are comparing a riflemen to a CM over 5 minutes you need to take the full 5 minutes for each profession. I really dontthink you want to go there as regen rates will only hurt your causesimply because you continue to do damage while other professions stop at death or out of site.
2) Its all the fault of the unhealable mind pool. - This too has been refuted quite easily. The problem really is the unhealable poisons for every one but a doc and the strength and duration. Only the rare uber character with the 10mil rifle can take down a person as fast as the CM and that is if he is in constant sight.Of course I am talking about a well prepared PVPer. Not a new guy.
Why is it that the majority of the so called uber classes are the ones with some type of mind hit? Swordsmen, Riflemen, CMs, TKAs, BHs, and now even Jedi all are subject to the same criticisms of being able to hit the mind pool. The only difference I agree with CMs is that our attack is mostly unresistable. However no one class should be able to be wholly invulnerable. If you are a defense stacker then you shouldn't have enough points leftover to pickup Doc skills. If you pickup some Doc skills then you should have less points for stacking your defenses etc.
That unresistable piece is huge. The battles with defense stackers and what not are often long and engaging. People get a chance to at least react and fight. Not so when they can do nothing about the 600 tick that penetrates everything and pretty much always lands. My point is simple. Even other professions that hit the mind are able to be overcame. This is not the case with the CM. Therefore I submit that the mind is not the real issue here. Its the power and duration.
3) Get doc.- Again easily refuted due to the fact that everyone but a few see that it is really bad to force people to be something simply because ofONE profession. There is not one other profession that forces you to pick up another profession to counter it. If you want to try to put dot weaps in there dont. They are managable and there is no stacking with them or if there is the delay in switching weapons causes it to be managable.
Do not invalidate DOT weapons. Take a Master Pikeman/Pistoleer 0040/Doc 4030 and you have a a self curing, state layingplayer with access to some of the easiest to obtain poison disease and fire weapons in the game. Even with a delay to switching it still won't matter as the stacking of multiple poisons, fire and disease still increase your BF to the point where disease tics will multiply. The only way to manage it is if you can cure or you have someone around who can cure you. You better thank the DEVs they didn't give CMs the ability to apply fire too.
Plain and simple, pikemen and fencers do not kill large groups with area poisons. Neither do riflemen or pistols with aoe effects. They are deadly but no where near as deadly as the CM. They are not even in the same class.
4) Quit whinning. Adapt or die.-A feeble mind trying to express itself forcefully. -LOL... Just kidding. The same ones keep crying about it too. Do they truly lack any imagination that they must use the same excuses over and over again? Or maybe they just can't think a way past the problem other than crying nerf? They refuse to make any change to their uber kill-all template. Like I have said before, you can't have your cake and eat it too.
Not worth it..
Its mainly the same ones saying the same thing over and over. However, the day is coming. Soon the cures and Innoculations will prevent the CM from being the end all. At that time I hope CM gets something to help them in PVE. That is not balanced I believe either.
The day has come. They fixed the nerf and set a cap on throw time. I got alot of PMs and in game emails from players flaming me how "Now that your profession has been totally nerfed I can't wait to pwn j00r azzz" I'm still killing those same noobs because they refuse to adapt and I have.
I beg to differ but the nerf bat has not swung yet. New ones will be new ones however the range and havla fix are just the start.
Many of the hardcore CMs are still around. Now you nerf criers want more because you see you haven't fazed us. The CMs have learned to adapt, improvise and overcome. You guys are still learning how to crawl in this game.
Who are you trying to fool. Sorry but what adaptation have you had to make. So what you cant throw poison past 64m anymore. You can't speedily apply poisons anymore. I mastered CM in 2 days. I learned how to take an entire group out shortly after that. If you want to really learn how to play, try playing wookiee for a year without armor. Then come back to me and talk to me about adapting. In the end, slowly the devs are seeing the imbalance. First, it is area cures, next innoc. Pretty soon things will be balanced out better and we will see how well you adapt.
In any event nice sparring with ya..
Message Edited by Morath360 on 07-29-2004 01:23 PM
Morath360
Thu Jul 29, 2004 1:44 pm
#18
Pahdbacca wrote:
Let me break it down for you. It has nothing to do with who is killing who. The whole point is to look at the DPS calc for longer than the 10 second period in which so many of those arguing the DPS point try to make. It is flawed reasoning.
Morath360 wrote:
Guys, fortunately many who are MCM's realize and are rational enough to see the problems with the poisons. The arguments of a few basically go like this:
1) CM does not need changed because DPS is in fact low. -This has been refuted so well that it is laughable to even bring up. For example, do the numbers as a DPS calc over 5 minutes instead of 10 seconds.5 minutes, huh? If it took me 5 minutes to kill a CM and cure a poison, I woulnd PvP in
Pahdbacca
Thu Jul 29, 2004 3:24 pm
#19
What is flawed?
People ask why CMs shouldn't recieve a 75% PvP reduction.
We say because CMs will do rediculously low amounts of damage in PvP then.
> No you don't
So then we have to illistrate just how little damage is done....because DoTs don't do initial damage, and the damage is applied over increments of time the easiest way to point this out is dps
> DPS is a flawed argument
The break it down for me even further. Break it down so simply that there can be no misunderstanding when I try to explain about CM damage.
This is the problem. Long time CMs kinda know the ins and outs of DoTs....we try to explain, then people say nuh uh....that's not right. Then the long standing CMs try to hold back the image that the nerf criers are holding their hands over their ears saying 'I can't hear you' over and over again.
Where is the flaw? You show me the flaw then I will try to explain better.
Are you trying to say that if a T21 does X damage per 10 seconds over 10 seconds then it doesn't doX damage per 10 seconds over a period of 5 minutes?
Are you trying to say that the amount of damage per tic of poisons increases the longer the poison is active? Because it doesn't.
Help me out here.
Morath360
Fri Jul 30, 2004 7:23 am
#20
Pahdbacca wrote:
What is flawed?
People ask why CMs shouldn't recieve a 75% PvP reduction.
We say because CMs will do rediculously low amounts of damage in PvP then.
> No you don't
So then we have to illistrate just how little damage is done....because DoTs don't do initial damage, and the damage is applied over increments of time the easiest way to point this out is dps
> DPS is a flawed argument
The break it down for me even further. Break it down so simply that there can be no misunderstanding when I try to explain about CM damage.
This is the problem. Long time CMs kinda know the ins and outs of DoTs....we try to explain, then people say nuh uh....that's not right. Then the long standing CMs try to hold back the image that the nerf criers are holding their hands over their ears saying 'I can't hear you' over and over again.
Where is the flaw? You show me the flaw then I will try to explain better.
Are you trying to say that if a T21 does X damage per 10 seconds over 10 seconds then it doesn't doX damage per 10 seconds over a period of 5 minutes?
Are you trying to say that the amount of damage per tic of poisons increases the longer the poison is active? Because it doesn't.
Help me out here.
Well it seems the point will be mute soon anyway but for about the 10th time I will go over it again. The part where the DPS calc breaks down or is flawed is that a typical argument using it goes like this:
CM poison damage = 600 per tick or 10 seconds..
Riflemen T21 hitting initially for say 4000 then goes down by 75% or 1000 then is reduced through mitigation and what not lets be generous and say about 500 per second.
CM argument is 500 x 10 = 5000 damage or 500 DPS. They then say that CM is only 600/10 = 60 dps. Therefore CM<Riflemen.
This is what is flawed. Its pretty easy to see. The flaw is that a CM continues to do damage and can damage multiple targets without being present to deal the damage. In fact he can even be dead and continue to do damage. That is why you have to increase the time for the calculation to something like what follows:
Over say2 minutes. 2 groups of 4 on each side.
CM poisons a group of4 at 300 per tick.
4x 300 =1200 or120 dps.
Rifleman is still at 500 dps.
Rifleman puts up a strong fight and kills say 2 of the 4 peoplebefore he dies. Lets say he uses mind shot and they have 3000 mind. Lets say he does this in 2 minutes.
Riflemen DPS = 6000/120 seconds or 50 dps
CM is still damaging at 120 dps.
The whole point is that because you dont need Line of sight and you have a very long duration, the poison over time causes you to have a much higher DPS. That is where the flaw is in only taking 10 seconds dividing 600 by 10 and only using 60 dps and comparing it to 500dps a riflemen does.
Again, it appears that soon this will be taken care of. I was a MCM for a long time up until about 2 weeks ago.. I hope they get something in pve. However, I do not have a lot of sympathy for those that think CM was fine and now feel that they are being nerfed unfairly. They have been at the top of the food chain for a very long time.
Pahdbacca
Fri Jul 30, 2004 9:23 am
#21
Ok, by the reasoning......Given a cure before the first tic, CM dps =0. How's that for a flaw?
The whole argument is suppose this, suppose that.
While the rifleman in your argument is putting up a valient fight and manages to kill 2 of the 4 people he is fighting, what are the other 3 people doing that the CM poisoned in this example? If they are not in the fight equation, then they should not be in the dps eqation, bringing the CM dps back down to 60 dps.
You find holes in one argument, I'll find holes in another.
I've said it once....I'll say it again Apples Vs Oranges
A rifleman doesn't have to wait 10 seconds after his/her initial attack to do damage.
A rifleman can fire on the run
A rifleman can fire faster than one shot every 4 seconds (for right now)
A rifleman cannot be cured before they do any damage at all
Yes, some CMs kite. Take that time to get cured. Travel with a good doc, who isn't interested in spamming unarmed attack 2 instead of watching HAM bars. IF you don't like to travel to the Doc, find a doc that knows how to target groupmates by reading state effects on the HUD and has /follow hotkeyed to get within 6m.
I don't know what else to tell you. 'Let me break it down for you' 'I'll point it out for the 10th time' If it is such a chore to get your perfect argument across, go play in game then. You'll have to forgive me if I take it a certain way when people flood these forums with somewhat less than constructive discussion while some CMs try to talk about issues that concern themselves and improving their profession. I don't understand why you do this....I have never posted in rifleman or jedi forums about why they need abilities lessened or 'nerfed'.
On a selfish note, if there is a problem with PvP and combat medics, go post on the GCW forums. I feel bad if no one wants to argue with you there, but it probably is a better place to bring up these concerns. And it provides for more threads here about cures, potency, crafting, and templates....topics I would rather be involved in.
neutrineaux
Mon Aug 02, 2004 5:57 pm
#22
Chabian wrote:
Brainplay wrote:
Chabian wrote:
I simply can't understand why a Single Person can throw upwards of 3 poisons on a single unhealable pool / wearing very good armor / with skills other than Strickly for DoT'ing someone's mind. It's the "I win" option .... No matter how much +X Poison Resist attachments you find, it does no good - there is simply no defense against this form of Bio-Hazzardous warfare. Actually innoculations and area cures are on the way but if you take the time to read about it you would have known that.
Do one of three things too make this pvping experience worthwhile:
A.) Reduce the 600 tick mind poisons <==This is not venom enhanced (address the issue of the HAM vulnerability and lack of all stat healing first then worry about poisons)
B.) Make Applying Diseases/Poisons a Master Combat Medic Ability <== Joo R dum (lets make meditate master TK, buffing master doctor, and any sort of special master level while we're at it)
C.) Area Poisons must infect the thrower, friendlies, and enemies (Much like a Commando's Grenades.) <== Joo R berry dum (and this is a direct attack on CM's and not a fix. Why do you not think commandos never use grenades?)
This would get rid of the dabblers and leave those who are only true to the Combat Medic Profession. Ive played this game for well over a year and I'm just about done with it. This is game breaking, it makes SWG Experience not worthwhile, and the Developers are doing nothing to eleviate these issues. I have no trouble with CM's using poisons for PVE reasons, but something MUST be done in pvp. Jedi are the new game breakers now....well them and the lack of content, lack of equality between ranged and melee, lack of actual in game supervision, etc etc etc. Btw, PvP is gimp. There is no real reason to do it other than to satisfiy your ego. No rewards, no loot, no standing other than on the Jedi rank scale, no challenge.
/wavesgoodbye BYE BYE
- Takai
Instead of solutions you post nerfs and ideas that would benefit other classes that are already "god-like" in a world without poisons. I'm really looking forward to the HAM revamp, armor nerf, and most importantly doctor buff nerf. No doubt we'll take a reduction in our poisons then but at least it will still be viable in combat.
p.s.= If you're going to cry NERF then at least title you stupid post accordingly. I thought you needed help with Combat Medic field craft or similar. You got no sympathy from me for that.
Message Edited by Brainplay on 07-28-2004 08:47 AM
I am aware of innoculations and area cures.
I have 600 Tick Mind poisons (Venom Enchanced = Spider Venom Power 280)
Why not make a "MASTER" box actually worth something....
And for god's sake, quit saying "Joo R Dumb" - I can not wait for school to start. If your going to bash me, at least do it in a language anyone over the age of 16 can understand.
- Takai
i personally would like pvp to be more fun, too. i die from poisons, too. but i die more often from jedi and defense stackers, to be honest. and the armor is impenetrable to anything i have but my poisons.
so it is not much fun for anyone, and the upcoming crushing blow poisons are being dealt will only briefly fix that for the non-cm's, as i am sure there will be some other villian pwning tehm soon enough.
i do agree with the joo r dumb ban. nerf all 1337 sp33k! ban the 1337 sp33k3rz!
Brainplay
Tue Aug 03, 2004 2:59 am
#23
neutrineaux wrote:
I am aware of innoculations and area cures.
I have 600 Tick Mind poisons (Venom Enchanced = Spider Venom Power 280) If you're only hitting 600 with a 280 venom then I really really feel for you. Nice waste of venom too.
Why not make a "MASTER" box actually worth something....
And for god's sake, quit saying "Joo R Dumb" - I can not wait for school to start. If your going to bash me, at least do it in a language anyone over the age of 16 can understand.
- Takai
i personally would like pvp to be more fun, too. i die from poisons, too. but i die more often from jedi and defense stackers, to be honest. and the armor is impenetrable to anything i have but my poisons. Dont worry they'll fix it like they promised too. I mean look at all the hard work they did to come up with a non-looping macro fix so that finding an active entertainer for MIND heals in the middle of the night will be next to impossible. Good job devs
Can see you working hard on JTL and the revamp.
so it is not much fun for anyone, and the upcoming crushing blow poisons are being dealt will only briefly fix that for the non-cm's, as i am sure there will be some other villian pwning tehm soon enough. Melee defense stackers with second accounts for support. Still cant believeare ownedby melee in a "futuristic" game like SWG.
i do agree with the joo r dumb ban. nerf all 1337 sp33k! ban the 1337 sp33k3rz! Sorry but with all of the trollers out there I felt I needed to speak down to them in a language they can understand...which isn't proper english half the time. I promise not to use L337 sp33k anymore.
neutrineaux
Tue Aug 03, 2004 6:30 am
#24
Brainplay wrote:
neutrineaux wrote:
I am aware of innoculations and area cures.
I have 600 Tick Mind poisons (Venom Enchanced = Spider Venom Power 280) If you're only hitting 600 with a 280 venom then I really really feel for you. Nice waste of venom too.
Why not make a "MASTER" box actually worth something....
And for god's sake, quit saying "Joo R Dumb" - I can not wait for school to start. If your going to bash me, at least do it in a language anyone over the age of 16 can understand.
- Takai
i personally would like pvp to be more fun, too. i die from poisons, too. but i die more often from jedi and defense stackers, to be honest. and the armor is impenetrable to anything i have but my poisons. Dont worry they'll fix it like they promised too. I mean look at all the hard work they did to come up with a non-looping macro fix so that finding an active entertainer for MIND heals in the middle of the night will be next to impossible. Good job devs
so it is not much fun for anyone, and the upcoming crushing blow poisons are being dealt will only briefly fix that for the non-cm's, as i am sure there will be some other villian pwning tehm soon enough. Melee defense stackers with second accounts for support. Still cant believeare ownedby melee in a "futuristic" game like SWG.
i do agree with the joo r dumb ban. nerf all 1337 sp33k! ban the 1337 sp33k3rz! Sorry but with all of the trollers out there I felt I needed to speak down to them in a language they can understand...which isn't proper english half the time. I promise not to use L337 sp33k anymore.
just joshin' bout da jibe, bro. i speak jibe, but not 1337.
Liani
Wed Aug 04, 2004 12:05 am
#25
coming to a forum and explaining why this profession needs to be weaker is not gonna get you a bunch of stars.
/duh
Liani
Brainplay
Wed Aug 04, 2004 5:02 am
#26
yebach wrote:
Speaking as a Doctor (No I am not a CM) I can say without a doubt that many who support CMs tend to be the immature fanbois who picked it up as FOTM. But then there are those like Texxie, Zarlor, Jfang, Jkray, Kavedawg, Pahdbacca, Gnuut, Rhengordon and Morganite who stuck to their guns and defended the CM profession even now in it's darkest hour. My hats off to you guys. I have been a long time visitor of the CM forums and yours were always the voices of reason.
Holy crap batman! What do I have to do to get one a freaking CM supporter list here? Geez....maybe I should just go doc...or BH.