Chef Archive
Thread: Vegeparsine does *NOT* work properly
After some easy but careful testing, I have totally convinced myself that vegeparsine does not work or is very buggy. This is true even if you equip/unequip your weapon after taking it. Previous but not quite as rigorous testing showed that pica thundercloud also does not work. According to my testing, it has been this way since the CU and as I write it is currently the day just before publish 23. We'll see if it's fixed in publish 23. Most other real testing has shown the same results though there are some scattered reports of it working. I believe my results because 1) the tests were simple and clear, 2) the results match the majority of other testing, and 3) I saw them and I have screenshots.
Main post:
Ok, first things first. Accuracy/defense does **2** things for you: It affects your chance of being hit and it affects the amount of damage done. There's loading screen in-game that tells you this, devs have posted it, and there's this Friday Feature which tells you this. This thread tells you how to calculate the exact amount of damage done. By that thread nor is there any magical cutoff where dimishing returns causes weird things nor is it important in *PvP* if one character is higher level than the other. I will not discuss the vegeparsine issue with anyone who does not understand these points because I am very tired of repeating myself. Some people don't seem to read things very carefully.
Ok, for the test, I had myself and a friend duel. First I had her attack me with melee hit without me having any vegeparsine and no armor. Her weapon was 134-293 damage, her accuracy 115, and my defense was 160. By the damage thread her damage should have been 214-5= 209 * 0.7 PVP reduction = 146. The reported damage was 142. The thread author acknowledges that his formula will be off by a point or two. I then took vegeparsine (+100 melee defense) which should have reduced the amount of damage I took by +100 * 159 * 0.00066255 * 0.7 = 7. My character sheet now showed 260 melee defense. The damage was exactly the same.
Now it gets weird. I then un-equiped my pistol which should have lowered my defenses (by 30) and caused me to take more damage. Instead I found that I took 141 damage. Then when I re-equiped my pistol I took more damage! I took 144! So having vegeparsine in me and re-equiping my weapon made me take more damage!
It is possible but highly unlikely that the to hit chance is working correctly even though the damage mitigation aspect is not. I did not test that. To do so would require 1000+ attacks to get mathematically significant results. I will not do this until SOE pays me to test (instead of the other way around).
EDIT: I'm putting a transcript here so you don't have to read a grainy screenshot.
Pistol equiped, no veg
Hit for 142
Eat veg
Hit for 142
Un-equip pistol
Hit for 141
Equip pistol
Hit for 144
Hit for 144
Hit for 144
Un-equip pistol
Hit for 141
Equip pistol
Hit for 144
Here is a screenshot of my combat spam. The red font turned out bad but I hope you can read it.
I bring this here not to discourage the chefs. I bring this here to point out a major bug with the game to hopefully get exposure for it so that we can all have more fun with the game. I thought the chef forum seemed like the most appropriate forum for a food issue. Some of the chefs have gotten defensive about my tests and have tried to dismiss them without doing testing themselves. I'm sorry for this. I'm not trying to ruin your business. I'm trying to make the game better.
I am completely convinced that something is up with vegeparsine at this point and I hope that I have convinced other rational people as well. Please, please test this yourself. It takes 30 seconds if you can find a friend to duel. Have them attack, eat the food, have them attack again, re-equip your weapon, have them attack again. Should literally take 6 seconds!
Thanks for your interest and please support me in asking for this to be fixed.
Archive of previous threads on subject:
Here
Here
Here
Message Edited by Barafu on 09-02-2005 03:13 PM
Message Edited by Barafu on 09-19-2005 12:07 AM
Lets not flame him.
He seems to be testing. More testing is needed for sure but we need folks that are willing to dedicate some time to it, combat toons, probably of varying levels. Still this is a start.
Sativaa wrote:
Do you know how to actually test something??
Yes.
Your test doesn't prove anything to me other than you have no clue what your talking about and that you don't have any idea what testing something actually involves.
You can not test something by having your friend hit you a few times and call this accurate testing
You can if you set up the test properly and you understand the effect you are trying to measure. Your comments prove to me that you didn't understand my test. Perhaps you don't understand how defense works?
It is also about imposable for someone who is so bias about the Food not working to accurately test it because your already set in your mind that the food doesn't work so your test will more than likely reflect this.
Not true at all. Biased against food? What does this mean? Yes I've posted about this subject a lot. That's because there is a lot of confusion about the subject and I'm trying to do my part to clear that up. I'd love for this to work. I'd use it, then.
You would need a non bias tester w/ multiple testing subjects and a lot of hitting and calculating to get a truly accurate test
Lots of hitting and calculating doesn't get you anywhere if you don't exactly know what you're testing. Reread my post.
Like one of the chefs said before if your so convinced that it doesn't work QUIT BUYING IT!!
I don't buy it. I bought one crate after the CU and I've been testing it ever since. It still doesn't work. I'd love to buy some more from my local chefs.
The Chef forums have been having thees kind of useless posts about Vege, and E Pica since the CU came out and the Sales for the stuff is still thru the roof, your not helping anyone by posting this your only making your self look like a chump for trying to pass your lame uncontrolled test off as fact
In my opinion, you are the one who looks foolish for responding so angrily and irrationly when I'm only trying to help the game. It took me about 5 minutes to do my tests and about and an hour to write up my tests, post my screenshots. I could have just taken my knowledge and kept it but I'm trying to help others. What are you trying to do?
Please test it yourself if you're skeptical. I'd honestly love for someone to prove me wrong. Just don't yell at me for trying to be helpful. It irritates me.
My 2 cents
MeciniaLua wrote:
Lets not flame him.
He seems to be testing. More testing is needed for sure but we need folks that are willing to dedicate some time to it, combat toons, probably of varying levels. Still this is a start.
Your right I'm not trying to attack him specifically, I'm just tired of the silly posts about how it doesn't work when the tards making the post don't even know who to properly test something.
I mean look at his reply, he actually believes that his test is accurate, and proves something 
Sativaa wrote:
MeciniaLua wrote:Lets not flame him.
He seems to be testing. More testing is needed for sure but we need folks that are willing to dedicate some time to it, combat toons, probably of varying levels. Still this is a start.
Your right I'm not trying to attack him specifically, I'm just tired of the silly posts about how it doesn't work when the tards making the post don't even know who to properly test something.
I mean look at his reply, he actually believes that his test is accurate, and proves something
/sigh.
You just flamed me by implicity calling me a tard. You dismiss my tests without specific criticisms and with empty rhetoric. It's clear to me and is clear to readers who understand the combat system that you don't understand my tests. I sincerely wish I could help by answering any specific questions you had about my testing.
Maybe one point of confusion is that you don't know that every time you attack you do a specific amount of damage which depends on varoius factors but is not random. The same attack will always do the same damage to the same creature with the same weapon. Of course, you'd understand this if you read and comprehended the clickies I posted.
I don't know what's going on here. I'm trying to help the game and I'm getting flamed. I understand that you chefs sell lots of this stuff. I'm telling you my direct personal experience that it doesn't work. You tell me your personal experience that you sell lots of it. Please, please, ask one of your customers to test this. Explain your test here and give your results.
I'm almost sorry that I posted in this forum at all. Like I said, I thought food matters should belong in the chef forum. Perhaps I should have taken my post to a combat forum where they might understand the combat system better.
Here's my suggestion for you, Sativa: 1) Take the time to understand my post and point out any legitimate flaws in my test. or 2) Apologize for flaming me and stay out of this thread.
Message Edited by Barafu on 08-31-2005 05:20 AM
AdosOba wrote:
The main point about all of this work doesn't work non-sense is to some chefs it doesn't matter that it works, it matters that it sells. I however don't care too much if it sells I make enough on other stuff. I would just like to see items work. In my testing of mitigation food it doesn't seem to make much difference. Although there is a difference. Others use the same food I make and say it doesn't work. Others swear by it. Problem for meis, this should not even be a question. The fact that it's brought up time and time again calls into question if it works and that is the botton line.
/agrees
Why are you chefs so hostile? (Sorry for the blanket statement, I knowreally it's only a couple of you). He's not trying to ruin your business, he's trying to get to the bottom of this. If you're gonna post angry, please don't post in a thread in which the OP has good intentions.
For a valid experiment in this case you don't need a high number of actual tests, because it has nothing to do with probability. Either the stuff lowers the damage or it doesn't.
Anyway, I found this stuff to work last night for me, but now I'm doubting myself... I'll run a few more tests when I get home from work.
Message Edited by LorinnaHellsing on 08-31-2005 07:25 AM
Results:
Test1:
No veg., no pistol
Hit for 147
Hit for 147
Equip pistol
Hit for 143
Hit for 143
Eat veg
Hit for 143
Hit for 143
Un-equip pistol
Hit for 140
Hit for 140
Equip pistol
Hit for 143
Hit for 143
Un-equip pistol
Hit for 140
Hit for 140
Equip pistol
Hit for 143
Hit for 143
Test 2:
No veg, no pistol
Hit for 147
Hit for 147
Eat veg
Hit for 147
Hit for 147
equip pistol
Hit for 143
Hit for 143
un-equip pistol
Hit for 140
Hit for 140
Equip pistol
Hit for 143
Hit for 143
Quick analysis:
When my pistol is un-equiped, the difference between the damage done with and without veg is exactly what you'd expect (7 points). Whereas, with my pistol equipped I see no difference due to vegeparsine. This is true whether the pistol was initially equiped or un-equiped while I eat the veg.
Conclusion:
Vegeparsine does seem to work. But only when I don't have my weapon equiped! This might explain some of the confusion and contradictory reports we're seeing.
Caveat:
To reiterate -- this does not test the effect on the chance to hit. However, it would be hard to imagine that they aren't connected and testing the chance to hit is difficult to due to the large dataset required.
Suggested actions:
-Test it yourselves. I'd be sincerely happy to be proved wrong.
-Ask the devs to fix this.