Chef Archive
Thread: Huge testing and evaluation of Air Cake and Pikatta Pie : Results inside
Page 1 of 3
ChefVomit
Tue Mar 08, 2005 2:56 pm
#1
There has been an enormous increase in PvP on the Starsider server as of late, and many questions have come up from my customers about the utility of both Air Cake and Pikatta Pie. On paper, it is very straightforward to determine that both foods should work well and be beneficial to some degree. Since my food is my life....and my customers faith in me the bedrock of my business......I decided to spend a good deal of time testing these foods under a wide range of situations.
After nearly 12 hours of ingame testing over the last three days, here are the conclusions I have reached:
- Air Cake and Pikatta operate entirely independently of ALL OTHER MODS. They do not affect your dodge mod, ranged or melee defense, or any other skill mod you have from any combat profession or skill tape.
- The do not stack, and Intimidate, stun, dizzy, bleeds, BF, Poisons, Diseases, or any other states have no measurable affect on their performance.
- Even though they say dodge, you don’t actually dodge an attack with this food. When they WORK…..the combat message will say the attack MISSED you. If the combat says that you evade, dodge, block, or counterattack, then the Air Cake or Pikatta was NOT responsible.
- Air Cake is essentially worthless for PvP, but it is extremely worthwhile for PvE. The reason for this is in how it actually works. It affects the initial to-hit modifier for any attack directed against you. The problem is, in PvP 99% of your opponents are usually Masters. Nearly all master professions have high accuracy, and when using specials that accuracy increases for nearly all professions. The result is that the 30-37% bonus that Air Cake gives you is simply outclasses in a PvP environment. It might prevent as many as 3 attacks out of 40 from landing, but in general the to-hit modifier for another master is so high that this small bonus is not enough to truly affect it in a way that makes it worthwhile to use in PvP.
- PvE with aircake is an entirely different matter. Since most mobs do not spam specials, they operate with the generic to-hit modifiers. Air Cake in PvE is an excellent defensive food. With a filling of only 10 or so, it can cause as many as 1 out of every 3 attacks to miss entirely. The average miss rate will be 1 in 6 with most mobs.
- Pikatta works the same exact same way; it just has higher filling and higher modifier values...the main difference being it is actually useful in PvP. The difference is that in PvP, it will actually cause as many as 1 in 6 attacks to miss entirely. On average you will see 1 in 10 attacks miss. In PvE, 50% or higher Pikatta can realize tremendous gains. As many as 9 out of 10 attacks will miss altogether, with 5 out of 10 being the average to expect in PvE.
I hope this helps when it comes to educating your customers. I have been a huge proponent of Air Cake for PvP for some time, and my actual testing contradicts this. In fact I admit that I was so stubborn to admitting that fact that I actually tacked on another 4 hours of testing just to see if it was some kind of fluke.
As for my testing methods, well....that is another huge post in its own. I will try to paraphrase. I set up staged tests. For the PvP testing...two individuals were placed at a distance where there was a "0" range modifier for the individual that would be attacking. The individual attacking then ran a macro spamming a single special a set number of times in a row (15 for the initial tests, and 25 for the later tests). The individual who was taking the attacks would be peaced and not initiate any attacks at all. The would simply sit there and take the abuse. These tests were repeated over and over and over again with the following permutations:
- Optimum and worst range scenarios (+50 and -50 to-hit mods)
- Receiver with weapon equipped (if they had dodge in their template)
- Receiver without weapon equipped
- Receiver with Master Level Dodge skills (both fencer and Pistoleer tested)
- Receiver with no defensive mods at all (yours truly)
- Attacker spamming identical specials
- Attacker spamming varying specials
- Attacker using default attack
- On Air Cake and without air cake....same for Pikatta
- High BF vs no BF
- Stunned, Intimidated, Diseased, and Poison states both on and off Pikatta and Air Cake ( thanks to A'cer and later Amraina for providing all the state testing)
- Attacker and Defender with either Melee, Ranged or NO defense mitigations
- Receiver with weapon equipped (if they had dodge in their template)
- Receiver without weapon equipped
- Receiver with Master Level Dodge skills (both fencer and Pistoleer tested)
- Receiver with no defensive mods at all (yours truly)
- Attacker spamming identical specials
- Attacker spamming varying specials
- Attacker using default attack
- On Air Cake and without air cake....same for Pikatta
- High BF vs no BF
- Stunned, Intimidated, Diseased, and Poison states both on and off Pikatta and Air Cake ( thanks to A'cer and later Amraina for providing all the state testing)
- Attacker and Defender with either Melee, Ranged or NO defense mitigations
For the PvE testing, we conducted single pull tests under multiple conditions from the same lair, and then repeated with another lair. This was done on Corellia with Savage Humbabas, Dath with Rancors, Dant with Pikets and Voritors, and Lok with Perleks and Snakes. We allowed the attack to commence, and then once the range has closed to a set range the combat logs were recorded for 20 hits before the animal was eliminated and another pulled for the same test.
There were a few more insane ones thrown in as well just for good measure, like dial-up vs broadband connections. In the end the data was very conclusive. I urge anyone who has questions regarding the testing to post here and I will answer further. I spent the better part of three days working on this and talking about all of the permutations in one thread is near impossible. I would like to offer a special thanks to A'cer, Bazkirsh, Siggy, AngryGerbil, Dragonfly, Amraina, Colorro, and others for taking the time to help me test these foods.
So how should you use these foods?
Well that is up to personal opinion, but here is my take on them.
For PvP, drop Air Cake altogether and concentrate on using Pikatta very carefully. On its own, Pikatta doesn’t help that much in PvP. But when you combine the affects of Pikatta with master level dodge, block, or counterattack mods (not to mention all the ranged, melee, and other defenses) you start to have a defensive setup that will cause 20-40% of the attacks against you to miss or be blocked in some way. It’s the cumulative affect that make it so worthwhile.
Personally, if I knew I was heading into a PvP fight within the next 30 minutes, I would pop a synthsteak and wait. Once the fight starts, or just before, pop the Pikatta. With the duration of Pikatta around 20 minutes or so, and with a filling of 40-45, it will be digested by the time it wears off. Since the Synthsteak is attack rather than time based, it will last for at least an hour. That way when the fight starts, you have both the Pikatta and the synth bonuses, and by the time the Pikatta wears off you have plenty of stomach room for another synth. Thak, canapé, etc. I wouldn’t reapply the Pikatta unless you have plenty of room in your stomach later on to play with. Steak or other foods will suit you better for the duration of a fight.
For PvE I would stick with Air Cake unless you are going after something serious. It can help out a lot and has very little filling and low cost compared to Pikatta. On the other hand in PvE Pikatta will make you nearly unhittable for 20 minutes, but at the expense of a good deal more of your stomach. For PvP, Pikatta is the only one of the two to even consider.
Thank you all for taking the time to read all of this, and I hope this helps. I do not claim that this is the end all be all of testing for these foods, but I can say that given the data I collected...... there is no way for me to support any other conclusions than the ones I have listed above. The more I tested, the more it became clear that this was how the system works. I welcome the insight of any al all other who have worked on testing these foods. I am personally glad to know that they both DO have a utility....although a bit surprised at the complete inefficiency of Air Cake in PvP.
Still.....this is good info and it helps me educate my customers. That.....makes them happier customers. 
Gehn45
Tue Mar 08, 2005 3:19 pm
#2
Nice work, I would like to do some testingwith jedi as well. Like a master defender vs a master healer with no defences. What im wondering is what the 50% means.
Again nice work.
sciguyCO
Tue Mar 08, 2005 3:23 pm
#3
Thanks, Vomit, that should definitely come in handy for informing our customers. Any chance you've got an "executive summary" of the hit/miss numbers you got with Pie/Cake vs. without?
ChefVomit
Tue Mar 08, 2005 3:28 pm
#4
Thanks Kriles and Gehn. I actually have screenshots of all the combat logs. I compiled everything onto paper first simply because I had so many notes about what times (ingame) particular tests were done that were already organized on a legal pad. Right now I am adding all the data into Excel and I will throw up a spreadsheet with the results in another day or so. There is - quite frankly - a huge amount of data. But I am trying to get it all organized into a single sheet to make it easy for others to pour over and evaluate.
Ill post it here once its done.
Ill post it here once its done.
I_Zombi
Tue Mar 08, 2005 3:51 pm
#5
You, sir, are a rockstar. 5 stars and a little praise doesn't seem to be enough thanks for all the time and effort you put into this. Right here is the difference between your average 12 point crafter and a server-best crafter.
ChefVomit
Tue Mar 08, 2005 7:17 pm
#7
Gehn45 wrote:What im wondering is what the 50% means. .
I tested with three different Pikatta recipes. One was +45, another +50, and the other +55 (which is my normal recipe). Lets use the +50 Pikatta data I collected as an example.
The thing to keep in mind is that it isnt actually "50%" per se. In fact it acts much more like a +50 AGAINST the to hit modifier for your attacker. If I had the spreadsheet up I could show you all of this....but I dont have it yet....so let me give you this example:
If you place a pistoleer at a distance from you where the range modifier he sees above your head is 0....and then have him fire off 20 specials.....he will hit you 18 or 19 times out of 20 assuming you have no defensive mods of your own (block, dodge, counterattack, etc)
Now....you have him backup to where that he is still in range....but the range modifier he sees over your head is -50.....then have him fire off another 20 special shots.
On average....4 of these will miss you.
Now finally....have him move back to where the range modifier over your head reads 0 again. Take a pikatta, and have him fire off the same 20 specials yet again.
On average.....4 of them will miss.
We tried this over and over again with many different professions. Basically, air cake and pikatta both seem to affect the initial to-hit modifier for an attack. The to-hit modifier itself seems to be a combiination of range, the weapon used, the individuals accuracy with that weapon, and finally some type of accelerator or bonus to accuracy if a special attack is used. If you are a master of any combat profession, you know that even with a -50 range modifier, you will rarely "miss" on your own. The individual may dodge or evade or block, but in general masters dont miss often....even at poor range (too close or too far). Taking a +50 pikatta will not cause 50% of the attacks against you to miss....but it does appear to add a -50 modifier to that to-hit modifier.....MUCH the same way that a -50 range modifier appears to work. When specials are NOT used, any master level combat profession will miss more often. You can try this yourself. Duel your buddy, and let the autoattack go for 20 attacks. Scroll through the combat log afterwards and look at how often you "miss". Now run the same test with 20 specials. You will miss less. In many cases, a significant amount less. I dont know whethere there is a bonus for special attack accuracy, or whether its simply a static amount and the generic attack is random...but there is a marked difference in the accuracy of special vs non-special attacks.
This FURTHER explains why Air Cake doesnt have much of an affect in PvP. If most masters dont "miss" on their own at -50.....they miss even less at -35. Air Cake simply doesnt add enough of a bonus to overcome the accuracy of a Master Level combat profession spamming specials. It DOES help in PvE though, and that is where I recommend using it over pikatta.
Hope this helps explain that a bit.
Message Edited by ChefVomit on 03-08-2005 09:18 PM
Message Edited by ChefVomit on 03-08-2005 09:18 PM
Gizmarke
Tue Mar 08, 2005 11:29 pm
#9
5*
Good Job
Thats how I thought it works
Glad to know theres data to support me saying that
Glad to know theres data to support me saying that
Ankor
Tue Mar 08, 2005 11:38 pm
#10
Sticky pls.
This is exactly the response we need for the daily "Does Pikata work?" threads. GJ Vomit.
This is exactly the response we need for the daily "Does Pikata work?" threads. GJ Vomit.
Message Edited by Ankor on 03-08-2005 10:39 PM
DW-Acer
Wed Mar 09, 2005 12:32 pm
#11
/cry
Bazkirsh and I are highly offended at being called "the individual".
Seriously though, this was great work Vomit. It's helpful for PvP planning, and to decide what ratios of food to punch out for the shop.
So, it was immensely fun to just launch loads of attacks at the servers best chef...but you have no idea the resolve I showed by not doing to you what I did to Baz...
ChefVomit
Wed Mar 09, 2005 4:28 pm
#13
Higginsis wrote:
Just a question, were any of these tests done vs jedi?
Me and a few friends from my guild were discussing what foods work best for a BH helping them stay on their feet longer vs a jedi, pikatta was one of them, would be good to know if the results from these tests would be applicable to them.
To be honest Higginsis, no.
I would love to do some testing against Jedi, and specifically with a complete BH template vs at least an MLS. I really dont know a good deal about the different Jedi templates, just what I have picked up from the myriad of my guildies that are Jedi. Since Jedi are so very different from the majority of other combat professions out there (not being actually ONE profession....but several different elite professions wrapped in one) I am not sure where to start.
But I do know several MLSs, so I will see what I can come up with. I think there are a couple that are already on the terms anyway that wouldnt mind beating up a Master Chef for about an hour. LOL. THANKS HIGGINSIS! Vomit hasnt had serious BF for months...but thanks to the testing I am STILL burning off the 1000 BF that I developed. No I get to go back out and get lightsabered. ROFL.
Give me a day and I will have some info. Ill conduct it in the same way I conducted the other testing. I am assuming that you would like to know both the effect it has on a Jedi who USES it..... as well as the affect it has on the opponent of a Jedi. That shouldnt be to hard to test. Not sure that Jedi really need either though, considering ranged professions are barely going to touch them anyway. I will try to dig up a melee master and a Jedi to go at it, as well as using Vomit of course for the baseline tests.
LOL....one saber-burnt Chef coming right up!
Page 1 of 3