Chef Archive
Thread: Additive and schematic pricing discussion
fatgit
Thu Feb 19, 2004 7:08 am
#14
The problem with the additives, for me personally, is I cant find one single BE willing to take an orde for additives, not one single BE on Chimaera seems willing to take even a small order.
My PA just got a Master BE, but he is slready snowed under, so my only option is to go get all the resources myself, and get a schematic.
If you can get a BE to do the additives, that's great. If I can, I will & add that price into my pricing structure, but it just isn't an option currently.
I'm willing to pay a fair price, but I'm not willing to pay 1/3 of the cost of making a 1000 run of additives JUST for a schematic.
I personally have made 8 schematics in the last month or so for others (non-PA) and all were for components (this is pre-patch where experimentation could make a difference), and I did them free of charge.
Was I allowing myself to be undercut ? Yes. Did I have time to do a factory run for each person that asked, and provide the ingredients so I could simply sell the final product to them instead? Nope.
I cant keep up with my PA's requirements, nevermind all the orders I get, so I do a bit of both. If an up & coming chef asks for a schematic making, I generally do it for free.
Im not saying BE's should do the same, but if they want 250k for a schematic, then they'd better not complain when the final produce is a lot more expensive.
My PA just got a Master BE, but he is slready snowed under, so my only option is to go get all the resources myself, and get a schematic.
If you can get a BE to do the additives, that's great. If I can, I will & add that price into my pricing structure, but it just isn't an option currently.
I'm willing to pay a fair price, but I'm not willing to pay 1/3 of the cost of making a 1000 run of additives JUST for a schematic.
I personally have made 8 schematics in the last month or so for others (non-PA) and all were for components (this is pre-patch where experimentation could make a difference), and I did them free of charge.
Was I allowing myself to be undercut ? Yes. Did I have time to do a factory run for each person that asked, and provide the ingredients so I could simply sell the final product to them instead? Nope.
I cant keep up with my PA's requirements, nevermind all the orders I get, so I do a bit of both. If an up & coming chef asks for a schematic making, I generally do it for free.
Im not saying BE's should do the same, but if they want 250k for a schematic, then they'd better not complain when the final produce is a lot more expensive.
PSKstang
Thu Feb 19, 2004 7:42 am
#15
There was someone saying why make a schematic and someone answered because you dont have to worry about factories, resuorces etc etc. Another way of looking at it, supporting the side of buying schematics is that in the end, the BE will have some extra cash on hand for little work. For example, this is something I do as a chef but it is rather similar to that of the BEs situation. I have a customer who comes in and offers me a deal, 15k of hide and I split w/e I make with it 50/50 and he throws in extra credits for any floral I use. What did I do? I quickly accpeted and made the goods. 40 crates of travel biscuits and 40 crates of synthsteak. 20 of each to me, and 20 each to my friend (long time friend who offered this deal). With current pricing, I gave away about 1.5 million worth of food to this player. Some people did not understand. But the way I saw it was, I got a chance to make 1.5 million worth of food for myself to sell for little work. In the end, I came out 1.5 million richer and had more variety to give my customers. This player couldve sold the hide to another chef or someone else, but instead brought it to me. Of course if the BE can get their own meat, they will make much more money, but if they do not have, and an oppurtunity arises for them to make some credits via schematics, I pesonally would jump on it. Even if I did not make the full credits I could've had they been my own resources.
stabboy
Thu Feb 19, 2004 10:23 am
#16
Ok lets look at a different way.
What if a BE has a nasty Pikeman alt. (that loves to kill creatures) that can gather 20K of meat in less then 3 days. The BE has also been running flora harvesters since he started playing the profession and has alot of flora, water, berries, and other resoucers just laying around. The BE also knows some tailors.
How much would you sell him the additive schematic, cask schematic, the alcohol schematic, and the V. Brandy schematic for?
He might have to go to different Chef to get these. How much would you charge for each one?
A BE with a alt.and some time could make his own Brandy and would make a sick profit. What's 200,000 x 40.
Would this be possible?
Numen
Thu Feb 19, 2004 10:51 am
#17
Honestly if I'm paying 870ish credits a tissue and I still have to get the resources and run them in my factory which takes one of my lots I would rather the BE run all of that. For 50k a crate they can deliver it to my vendor as well.
It comes down to how much my time is worth. If i go to a BE and he has a certain price fora crate and certain price for a schematic it will matter a lot on the difference there.
I'm not saying 870c profit for the tissue is too much, I just think it is too much for the amount of work that is involved.
If I needed the tissue it would be different. I don't though. I do get a bonus when they use it, but to me at least the extra million or so on a full run of Brandy isn't that important. The difference between 100k and 1.1 million is huge, the difference between 7 million and 8 million isn't much.
The BE needs me to buy the tissues more than I need him for me to sell food. BE food requires me to use casks as well. This is a huge aspect that I don't have to deal with for regular food. I would estimate it at least doubles my effort in making a crate of drinks. Not time, effort. Making a run of alcohol is easy. Going to a tailors shop or ordering it ahead of time is not as easy.
I'm not saying BEs shouldn't get paid for their time and use of the skill points. But there is no way I will ever pay a BE 500k+ for a schematic that takes them 1 minute to make. While making the schematic they can be using their skill points in other areas. If they want to tie up a factory for 3 days to make tissues, that is there choice. I will pay 50k a crate for tissues though.
Dridstar
Thu Feb 19, 2004 10:58 am
#18
Ankor wrote
a couple comments.
1) a BE's "skill in learning his profession" or whatnot is of zero value. Repeat: zero. I don't mean to insult BEs here, and obviously I am only speaking from an additive standpoint, I have no doubt a BE's experience and knowledge is invaluable when making pets. For additives however, a Chef hands them two ingridients, they double click them, put their experimentation points into the ONLY line available, and they're done. This isn't like other crafting professions where an "elite" crafter will have extra experimentation points from spending 50 million credits on skill tapes. Every BE, from the two-day-old hologrinder to the hoary-bearded "I Mastered BE two weeks after release" veterans will discard unused experimentation points after filling that one bar. No exceptions. There are no tricks, no "break points" to know that putting one bubble into quantity will bump output by three charges, nothing. No knowledge, no skill, no luck involved.
I had my first additive schematic made at the Dathomir outpost. I figured "hey, I've got some resources in my pack, there's a crafting station right here, and that guy is wearing a master BE title" and I struck up a conversation. Prior to speaking to me he'd never made anything but pets. I had to explain to him how to make a schematic. No joke. He made exactly the same schematic an "elite" BE made for me a couple day later for my second run, and it's the same schematic another "elite" BE made for me tonight with the same resources. 84%, 84%, 84%.
Now, I don't want to belittle BEs... I know they deserve to be compensated for the time they spent levelling and the skill credits they invested; not for thier expertise, which is completely useless in this particular case. Click the box, give me the schematic, here's your money. A trained monkey could do it.
2) while you mention it in your writeup, you never actually assign a value to tieing up my factory for three days. For myself, and every other Chef who doesn't run 10+ factories (and I imagine even several of those who do) this is a HUGE hiderance. If you're going to figure the appropriate cost for a schematic vs. actual additives, this has to be taken into account. From my perspective, the pittance my factory costs in power and maintenance (which you did include in your calculations) is nothing compared to how much this slows production.
1) a BE's "skill in learning his profession" or whatnot is of zero value. Repeat: zero. I don't mean to insult BEs here, and obviously I am only speaking from an additive standpoint, I have no doubt a BE's experience and knowledge is invaluable when making pets. For additives however, a Chef hands them two ingridients, they double click them, put their experimentation points into the ONLY line available, and they're done. This isn't like other crafting professions where an "elite" crafter will have extra experimentation points from spending 50 million credits on skill tapes. Every BE, from the two-day-old hologrinder to the hoary-bearded "I Mastered BE two weeks after release" veterans will discard unused experimentation points after filling that one bar. No exceptions. There are no tricks, no "break points" to know that putting one bubble into quantity will bump output by three charges, nothing. No knowledge, no skill, no luck involved.
I had my first additive schematic made at the Dathomir outpost. I figured "hey, I've got some resources in my pack, there's a crafting station right here, and that guy is wearing a master BE title" and I struck up a conversation. Prior to speaking to me he'd never made anything but pets. I had to explain to him how to make a schematic. No joke. He made exactly the same schematic an "elite" BE made for me a couple day later for my second run, and it's the same schematic another "elite" BE made for me tonight with the same resources. 84%, 84%, 84%.
Now, I don't want to belittle BEs... I know they deserve to be compensated for the time they spent levelling and the skill credits they invested; not for thier expertise, which is completely useless in this particular case. Click the box, give me the schematic, here's your money. A trained monkey could do it.
2) while you mention it in your writeup, you never actually assign a value to tieing up my factory for three days. For myself, and every other Chef who doesn't run 10+ factories (and I imagine even several of those who do) this is a HUGE hiderance. If you're going to figure the appropriate cost for a schematic vs. actual additives, this has to be taken into account. From my perspective, the pittance my factory costs in power and maintenance (which you did include in your calculations) is nothing compared to how much this slows production.
A Trained Monkey?! WOW..you need to calm down. BE is not only one of the most time consuming and expensive Professions to master, but it is also probably the most complicated. Maybe notcomplicated in this particular matter, but all this stuff is brandnew. You dont get the Large nutrient supplement till you hit Master. Try grinding up the DNA sampling tree using no skill. I doubt many chefs risk their lives to Master their craft. No crafting procedures really take any "skill". Just the best ingredients, best crafting tools available, and a little luck.You seem to be forgeting not only the time and effort it takes, but the dedication one must muster simply to remain in what has been one of the most broken classes of the game. That being said...I make any schematic for 25k. I think this is perfectly reasonable. I've also rethought my pricing and have come up with 40k for a large crate, 30k for med, and 20k for light. This is just for the "basic" nutritional supplements. The other food enhancements we can make are a totally diff story. BTW, there's an optional slot for a "secret schematic" ingredient in our food tissue schems. But I'm sure this will take no skill either to figure out. Sorry bout the "rant". But I just couldn't let that post go.
jeditao
Thu Feb 19, 2004 11:06 am
#19
Ithink that 50k would make any other product than Brandy is WAY to expensive. Even food would be around 100k, and drinks with casks especially. 150-200k for Ithorian Mist anyone? The situation is even worse with heavy additves. 75k per crate means I have to sell thakitillo (35k regular price) at 120k to give me at least 10k per crate for the hassle. Someone I mentioned this estimate yesterday laughed in my face.Bottom line: I'm NOT buying any BE additives at 50k a crate other than for Vasarian Brandy. It's just not worth it.
Dridstar
Thu Feb 19, 2004 1:21 pm
#20
That's a great idea Gotik, but it's like trading gold for diamonds. Who's got 120 cases of VB just lying around to trade with? Well I guess chefs would
That's like 12 million credits at 100k a crate and I bet that's a low price assumption on my part. Smart idea though
That's like 12 million credits at 100k a crate and I bet that's a low price assumption on my part. Smart idea though
Ankor
Thu Feb 19, 2004 1:32 pm
#21
a couple comments.
1) a BE's "skill in learning his profession" or whatnot is of zero value. Repeat: zero. I don't mean to insult BEs here, and obviously I am only speaking from an additive standpoint, I have no doubt a BE's experience and knowledge is invaluable when making pets. For additives however, a Chef hands them two ingridients, they double click them, put their experimentation points into the ONLY line available, and they're done. This isn't like other crafting professions where an "elite" crafter will have extra experimentation points from spending 50 million credits on skill tapes. Every BE, from the two-day-old hologrinder to the hoary-bearded "I Mastered BE two weeks after release" veterans will discard unused experimentation points after filling that one bar. No exceptions. There are no tricks, no "break points" to know that putting one bubble into quantity will bump output by three charges, nothing. No knowledge, no skill, no luck involved.
I had my first additive schematic made at the Dathomir outpost. I figured "hey, I've got some resources in my pack, there's a crafting station right here, and that guy is wearing a master BE title" and I struck up a conversation. Prior to speaking to me he'd never made anything but pets. I had to explain to him how to make a schematic. No joke. He made exactly the same schematic an "elite" BE made for me a couple day later for my second run, and it's the same schematic another "elite" BE made for me tonight with the same resources. 84%, 84%, 84%.
Now, I don't want to belittle BEs... I know they deserve to be compensated for the time they spent levelling and the skill credits they invested; not for thier expertise, which is completely useless in this particular case. Click the box, give me the schematic, here's your money. A trained monkey could do it.
2) while you mention it in your writeup, you never actually assign a value to tieing up my factory for three days. For myself, and every other Chef who doesn't run 10+ factories (and I imagine even several of those who do) this is a HUGE hiderance. If you're going to figure the appropriate cost for a schematic vs. actual additives, this has to be taken into account. From my perspective, the pittance my factory costs in power and maintenance (which you did include in your calculations) is nothing compared to how much this slows production.
1) a BE's "skill in learning his profession" or whatnot is of zero value. Repeat: zero. I don't mean to insult BEs here, and obviously I am only speaking from an additive standpoint, I have no doubt a BE's experience and knowledge is invaluable when making pets. For additives however, a Chef hands them two ingridients, they double click them, put their experimentation points into the ONLY line available, and they're done. This isn't like other crafting professions where an "elite" crafter will have extra experimentation points from spending 50 million credits on skill tapes. Every BE, from the two-day-old hologrinder to the hoary-bearded "I Mastered BE two weeks after release" veterans will discard unused experimentation points after filling that one bar. No exceptions. There are no tricks, no "break points" to know that putting one bubble into quantity will bump output by three charges, nothing. No knowledge, no skill, no luck involved.
I had my first additive schematic made at the Dathomir outpost. I figured "hey, I've got some resources in my pack, there's a crafting station right here, and that guy is wearing a master BE title" and I struck up a conversation. Prior to speaking to me he'd never made anything but pets. I had to explain to him how to make a schematic. No joke. He made exactly the same schematic an "elite" BE made for me a couple day later for my second run, and it's the same schematic another "elite" BE made for me tonight with the same resources. 84%, 84%, 84%.
Now, I don't want to belittle BEs... I know they deserve to be compensated for the time they spent levelling and the skill credits they invested; not for thier expertise, which is completely useless in this particular case. Click the box, give me the schematic, here's your money. A trained monkey could do it.
2) while you mention it in your writeup, you never actually assign a value to tieing up my factory for three days. For myself, and every other Chef who doesn't run 10+ factories (and I imagine even several of those who do) this is a HUGE hiderance. If you're going to figure the appropriate cost for a schematic vs. actual additives, this has to be taken into account. From my perspective, the pittance my factory costs in power and maintenance (which you did include in your calculations) is nothing compared to how much this slows production.
Gotik-CH
Thu Feb 19, 2004 9:29 pm
#22
Dridstar wrote:
That's a great idea Gotik, but it's like trading gold for diamonds. Who's got 120 cases of VB just lying around to trade with? Well I guess chefs would
Yeah.. well I didn't have 120 cases to start. I did a run.. and as they finished, I frantically traded for meat to start up more runs and so on.
Gotik
Laeir
Fri Feb 20, 2004 9:30 am
#23
I've been agonizing over additive and schematic pricing for some time now. The biggest problem for me is that the price of meat can fluctuate so much and contract hunters are charging 30-40cpu for it. However, for schematics, I would always charge a fixed price on the order of my single crate price. If I'm selling medium nutrients for 30k per crate, then I'd make a schematic for 30k as well.
BristaAB
Fri Feb 20, 2004 9:46 am
#24
There have been a number of very interesting and well thought out points made so far but one that has been missed and is likely to be significant is:
How much can you get for it?
Suppose instead of doing schematics for chefs or working out a negotiated deal, the BE simply sticks it on his or her vendor at 100k a crate and announces it on the galaxy's trade forum
Would it sell?
Probably
Laeir
Fri Feb 20, 2004 2:46 pm
#25
Some meat is harder to get than others. Sure, if the carnivor meat on Dathomir is good, and you can get into a party that is hunting Rancors, you can walk away with a lot of meat in a few hours. On the other hand, if the meat you want is Tatooine Avian meat, you could spend all week hunting and only gather a few thousand units. Very few would find hunting such small game entertaining.
The bazaar isn't usually much help for high quality meat. I count myself lucky if I can pick up 1k of high quality meat for under 10cpu off the bazaar per day.
It may come down to just taking the most available meat and not worrying to much about the quality. The experimental range is only +30 (30-60 light, 60-90 medium, 90-120 heavy), and only 1/3 of the quality comes from the meat on the nutrition boosting bionutrients. The difference between an average meat and a near perfect meat is only about +5%. So we may end up with some very cheap +75ish Broad-spectrum made from junk meat and some very expensive +85ish Broad-Spectrum. At any rate, it will be interesting to see how it all works out.
The bazaar isn't usually much help for high quality meat. I count myself lucky if I can pick up 1k of high quality meat for under 10cpu off the bazaar per day.
It may come down to just taking the most available meat and not worrying to much about the quality. The experimental range is only +30 (30-60 light, 60-90 medium, 90-120 heavy), and only 1/3 of the quality comes from the meat on the nutrition boosting bionutrients. The difference between an average meat and a near perfect meat is only about +5%. So we may end up with some very cheap +75ish Broad-spectrum made from junk meat and some very expensive +85ish Broad-Spectrum. At any rate, it will be interesting to see how it all works out.
StarSiderShadrach
Fri Feb 20, 2004 3:11 pm
#26
The point to be made here is that Chef Tissues DONT require high quality meat.
The difference I've seen between using crappy meat and high qualtiy meat for the heavy tissues I get is 108 vs 115.
** 7 ** percent. For a difference of 100 stats vs 800-900 stats.
That's precisely 7 percent enough that it's not worth my while to pay 20-30 cpu, especially cause I can get TONS of meat from people grinding their HOLO skills on mountain squills.
Just something to keep in mind.
The difference I've seen between using crappy meat and high qualtiy meat for the heavy tissues I get is 108 vs 115.
** 7 ** percent. For a difference of 100 stats vs 800-900 stats.
That's precisely 7 percent enough that it's not worth my while to pay 20-30 cpu, especially cause I can get TONS of meat from people grinding their HOLO skills on mountain squills.
Just something to keep in mind.