Chef Archive
Thread: The case for barrels
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Zhor
Mon Feb 02, 2004 4:24 pm
#14
Advertise in this forum or another galaxy's trade forum. i.e "lot swap - want to swap 10 lots on *your server* if you make a character on my server and let me put factories down. All you need to do is place factories where I ask you and give me Administrator so I have access.
Something like that anyway. I haven't done it yet as I have got enough resources to mass produce and therefore don't want extra burdon of more factories etc. Will be doing it sometime in the not so far future. Maybe we can do a lot swap?
PSKstang
Mon Feb 02, 2004 7:28 pm
#15
I have a question. Are barrels made in equipment factories or in food/chem factories? Same with casks and glasses. I know the sub-components are equipment factories.
MuttonJedi
Mon Feb 02, 2004 9:46 pm
#16
Looking only at total resources doesn't really make for a good comparison. 300 grind-quality non-ferrous just isn't as hard to get as 300 milk, 300 domestic meat, or even 300 high-quality grain. Of course, artisan components are worth more than just their resources also, but the way it is now barrels will probably be cost-effective for many recipes.
DenazsVil
Mon Feb 02, 2004 10:16 pm
#17
One would think that barrels would be useful for those drinks that despite experimentation, don't yeild quantites larger than 1 or maybe 2.
cheers!
Justin Lightingstar
Cadence73
Tue Feb 03, 2004 1:50 am
#18
I am really trying to start a discussion, rather than trying to make a point with this first post on the thread.
Here is very rough logical math.
If a drink takes 200 resources to make,
then a crate takes 5000 resource.
If a barrel costs 350 resources to make (don't know the exact amount, but this is close)
then adding barrels to a crate takes 8750 resource.
So, a crate without barrels takes 5000 resources and makesXuses
and a crate with barrels takes 13750 resources and makes 3X(or even more)uses.
The crate made with barrels uses less resources per use.
It seems to me that using barrels is not mandatory, even for people expecting the best stuff, because barrels don't in any way influence the buff size, duration or filling, but they are a way to add customization to the process.
I am going to be asking clients exactly how many uses they want, and tailoring my crates to match that.
I have no one IRL to talk to about this, so I'm hoping that some people can post here to show me where I'm right and where I'm wrong. I would like the feedback.
Thanks!
GalinHawk
Tue Feb 03, 2004 9:40 am
#19
I don't think this is as complicated as people are making it out to be. Here's one "eazy" method on how to approach it from a cost/income potentialperspective <edit... after writing this, it seems more complicated.. but honest - it's not>:
First, let's assume your cost of ingredients for the Brandy is 10 cpu (for excellent resources... just for arguement sake). 60 ingredients = 600 credits per stack. That cost is standard weather you're making drinks out of barrels or glasses.
Glass = 10 resources, 1 factory run. At3 cpu + 2500 for the factory run, that's 12 credits per "drink" based on a 1,000 unit run.
Large Glass = 100 resources, 1 factory run. At3 cpu + 2500 for the factory run, that's 102 credits per "drink" based on a 1,000 unit run.
Barrel = 363 resources, 3 factory runs. At 3 cpu + 7500 for the factory runs, that's 1,097 per "drink" based on a 1,000 unit run. However, if you are buying the barrels components from Artizans, add on another 50%, or round it off to 1,500 credits per Barrel.
Now look at your "income":
Say you are selling your Brandy for 300 credits per USE (which is based on the Fishak/Bivoli template most people are using, less a little) and your average Brandy has 7 uses:
A "single glass" run would sell for 2,100 per stack of 7. Your costs would be the brandy ingredients (which are standard for either Glasses or Barrels) plus 12 cpu. Net profit per stack is 2,100 -600 - 12 = 1,488 per stack.
A "large glass" run would sell for 2,100 per stack of 7. Your costs would be the brandy ingredients (which are standard for either Glasses or Barrels) plus 102 cpu. Net profit per stack is 2,100 -600 - 102 = 2,298 cr. More than the small glass.
A "Barrel" run would sell for 5X 2,100 or 10,500. Assume now you don't want to scare off customers, so you give a 20% discount on the Barrel size. So your "sale price" is 8,400 per use. The Proffit would be 8,400 - Brandy- Cask = 8400-600-1,500 = 6,300 per stack
So obviously, if you price per use in your stack (which most people do I think) you would make WAY more proffit with a cask at 5X usesthan a glass, even with the high resource requirements of the cask.
Summary so far:
Small Glass- 2 factory runs, 1,488 profit per stack
Large Glass - 2 factory runs, 2,298 profit per stack
Barrel - 5 factory runs, 6,300 profit per stack (giving a 20% price discount)
Now take into account that you can run 2.5 Small or Large-glass runs for each Barrel run... and remembering we have factored in the "cost of resources" into the equasion (so that resoures are "infinite"), we get the final Opportunity costs of the facotry runs as:
Small Glass-3,720 profit per "5" factory runs
Large Glass - 5,745 profit per "5" factory runs
Barrel - 6,300 profit per "5" factory runs (and remember you're giving an additional20% price discount).
Bottom line - even as the system is now, Barrels will give the best profitiability. Sure they take longer to produce, but if you are charging per-use, then you will make exponentially more money producing barrels - even if you're (1) buying all your resources and (2) buying all the ingredients for barrels at a 50% markup and (3) giving a price discount so you're not scaring customers away with a 262,500cr price per case of 25 (droping it down to 210,000).
However, from a simplicity perspective, note that you are only getting about a 10% bonus with Barrels than large glasses (or up to 45% if you don't discount), so factoring in theadded trouble, it may be not be worth it... plus you have more flexibility with the large glass runs than with the barrel runs. For my money, I'll take the large glasses just to keep it simple for myself. It Barrels went above 6X, then it would be impossible to turn down I think.
Phew - that's enough math for me. Sorry if I made anyone's head hurt.
PS - There should be a rule of thumb that you can make to find out when you should use small vs. large vs. casks based on the price per stack... I'll try to work that one out.
GalinHawk
Tue Feb 03, 2004 10:08 am
#20
Silly me - I worked it out (basic algebra):
If your revenue per stack is less than 180 credits, you should use small glasses
If your revenue per stack is between 180-1,000 credits, you should make large glasses
If your revenue per stack is more than1,000 credits, you should use Barrels.
That incorporates
- Cost of ingredients
- Cost of containers (including buying sub-components)
- Use of factory time (i.e. you can produce 2.5 times as many drinks using large glasses in the same time you can produce Barrels)
The only thing this doesn't incorporate completely is the cost of resources of the product when making Barrels. If you want to manage that, simply subtract the cost of the ingredient resources divided by 1.25 from the 1,000 credits (i.e. if your resources to make the drink cost you 600, subtract 480 from the 1,000, giving you a break-even point of 520).
Examples:
If you are making some chump-food that sells for 20 "cost per use" and is in a stack of 5, you should use small glasses since using large glasses or kegs won't break even.
If you are making a decent drink that sells for 50 cost per use in a stack of 7, you should use large glasses.
If you are making an average "good" drink that sells for 100 cost per use in a stack of 10, then you should use Barrels.
(of course - if you want to keep things simple, you can always use large glasses, but you will make more money producing drinks with Barrels)
Buugli
Tue Feb 03, 2004 10:15 am
#21
OK, this is a good discussion and the points follow my thinking (barrel cost justified if contents are high quality and/or use BE'd items). Now, to be logical a moment:
If BARREL=GOOD for drinks, WHERE are the barrel equivalents for FOODS?? High quality resourcesand BE'd componentscan beused in them too, right? So what's the logic I am missing here...
GadonThek
Wed Feb 04, 2004 1:36 am
#22
Well thanks for that GalinHawk, its much clearer now. I think Ill still be using Large Glases the majority of the time, simply because trying to keep 2 vendors stocked with food and drinks with that much downtime due to factory runs on barrels. Ill probably do factory runs with large glasses, then do mu "specials" with BE additives and the like in hand made barrels, that way I can use my crafting macro to churn out 30 barrels in 10 minutes.
That way I can do crates of the good stuff with decent stcack sizes, and barrels of the REALLY good stuff without having the extra hassle of dozens of factory runs. When your only able to run 2 factories max its going to take far too long doing all the componant runs.
That way I can do crates of the good stuff with decent stcack sizes, and barrels of the REALLY good stuff without having the extra hassle of dozens of factory runs. When your only able to run 2 factories max its going to take far too long doing all the componant runs.
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