Chef Archive
Thread: The case for barrels
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Camenai
Mon Feb 02, 2004 2:15 pm
#1
Well, it's risky replying to this thread as Kriles will come in after me, correct my math and make me look foolish, but here goes anyway. Let's use a specific example, Vasarian Brandy seems to be popular on TC, let's look at that.
2 identical alcohol 20 resources, 20 fruits, 20 berries and one container. If we use a small glass, that's 70 resources and 3 factory runs for 1x quantity.
If we use the barrel, we have the original 60 resources for the brandy + 363 resources for the barrel. The barrel takes 2 Master Artisan components, so we have to add in 3 additional factory runs **IF** we are a Master Artisan and can do it ourselves. So, that's 423 resources for what we *think* might be 5x quantity (not sure since barrels are bugged atm). So, our resource cost ALONE is now more than 6x the small glass container and we have doubled our factory runs from 3-6.
I don't think this is efficient at all and I do hope they increase the multipliers. It might be useful for recipes requiring milk, but other than that, I think it's a really neat idea that'll never be utilized because the resource cost is too high for what you get.
Ezran
Mon Feb 02, 2004 2:17 pm
#2
This is a valid point. However The maximum any drink takes is 110 resources (T'illa-T'iil) not 200, and that may not ever get more than 1 use (because of design or bug). The next runner up is Breath of Heaven at 90 resources (including components).
So, 300 Non-ferrous metal + 2 components would need AT LEAST 5x to be viable.
That's not including the skill, and time required to make them.
That's why I say 10x would be reasonable.
So, 300 Non-ferrous metal + 2 components would need AT LEAST 5x to be viable.
That's not including the skill, and time required to make them.
That's why I say 10x would be reasonable.
sciguyCO
Mon Feb 02, 2004 2:24 pm
#3
Huh, that's a good point, I never thought of it that way. And it's probably even better, since casks on TC are giving 3x, so I would assume that barrels (once they get fixed) would give at least 4x or 5x, maybe more.
A barrel takes 300 non-ferrous metal, a power conditioner (12 metal, 6 polymer, 5 low-grade ore, 4 copper, 3 inert gas, 2 amorphous gems), and a control unit (10 metal, 10 polymer, 5 low-grade ore, 3 copper, 3 inert gas) for a total of 363 resources. A small glass uses 10 gems.
A Vassarian Brandy (a likely big seller, so lets use that for our example) requires 60 resources if you don't count the container, and I've been getting mainly 7 dose stacks, although I don't have a lot of Cooking skill on TC. A crate of brandies using small glasses will require (60 + 10)*25=1750 resources, which is 175 doses (10 resources per dose). A crate of brandies using barrels requires (60 + 363)*25 = 10,575, which is 875 doses (assuming barrels give 5x) for 12 resources per dose. Since you can get glasses in a single factory run, and barrels need three (2 for the components, one for the barrels) this may not be an economically viable alternative for regular sales, although customers who put a premium on reduced inventory space may buy it.
I think barrels would be a good addition for high-resource drinks, or oneswith ahigh base quantity, since at some point the resource/dose would likely drop to a point where you get a return from the extra work from a barrel.
Another place barrels would be useful is if you use quantity addtives in your drinks. The barrel quantity multiplier (X) stacks with the additive (Y) , giving you ( X * Y) times the base quantity. So if barrels were 5x, usingone and a light +150 quantity additive (which gives you 2.5x) on a drink with a base quantity of 2 would give 25 doses per stack. One thing we may need to find out is whether the quantity is truncated down to a whole number after each multiplier (and then we'd need to know the order the multipliers are done), or if it takes the base * container * additive, and truncates that final number.
Actually, given the probable difficulty getting BE additives in crates, barrels would be a logical choice for just about any BE enhanced drink. Sure you could use 5x the number of small glasses to get the same number of doses, but that would require getting 5x the additives.
I think the major complaint about barrels is not so much the raw resource use, but the dependence on Master Artisan components. MA's usually make these for Architects and DEs (at least for Architects and DEs who haven't taken MA themselves), which don't have nearly the volume of sales of a chef. Hopefully increased demand will make these crates of these components more available in the marketplace, since I'd rather not use up the the skill points, plus having to get an equiment factory.
Ezran
Mon Feb 02, 2004 2:31 pm
#4
You can definitely tell who's reloading the forums page on a regular basis, three long replies before any could be posted.
Scorus
Mon Feb 02, 2004 2:41 pm
#5
As easy as it is to Master Artisan (make some harvesters), you could Master it, run about 3000 of each of these components off and then drop it again.
sciguyCO
Mon Feb 02, 2004 2:45 pm
#6
Camenai wrote:
Well, it's risky replying to this thread as Kriles will come in after me, correct my math and make me look foolish, but here goes anyway. Let's use a specific example, Vasarian Brandy seems to be popular on TC, let's look at that.
How can I make you look foolish, we both picked the same example. 
(Um....psst: the number offactory runs required using barrels is 5 not 6: 1 alcohol, 1 power cond., 1 control unit, 1 barrel, 1 vassarian. You didn't subtract the small glass run from the 3 runs in your first part)
Sorry about that, couldn't help myself...
P
LeilaniKirlia
Mon Feb 02, 2004 2:48 pm
#8
He obviously was referring to the extra factory run that he would be making...the crate with. Yeah, that's the new thing, you have to make the crates themselves now, they don't just appear out of nowhere, you know! 
Crates will be 7500 soft wood each with Master BE, Artisan, Tailor, Bounty Hunter, and Image Designer crafted components, and they use Structure Factories which are two lots each.
A crate of crates, anyone?
Ezran
Mon Feb 02, 2004 2:52 pm
#9
Someone made a good point in another thread:
The quality of resources used in a container does not affect the produced drink, so you'll be using less of your good resources, and can just use garbage instead.
Still, I stand behind:
Large Glass: 3x
Cask: 5x
Barrel: 10x
You have to gain something when you go through the additional trouble/skill. The way it is now, I don't see a total benefit.
The quality of resources used in a container does not affect the produced drink, so you'll be using less of your good resources, and can just use garbage instead.
Still, I stand behind:
Large Glass: 3x
Cask: 5x
Barrel: 10x
You have to gain something when you go through the additional trouble/skill. The way it is now, I don't see a total benefit.
GadonThek
Mon Feb 02, 2004 2:56 pm
#10
Well thats fine for the advanced players with capped AP Points Scorus, but for those of us who are still struggling to get enough to master the professions we NEED its not really an option. In the end, my problem is not one of skillpoints or resources, but of lots. Before this containers issue, I could comfortably run a modest chef business with my ten lots, now Ive got no chance. I now need an extra lot for an equipment factory, I need YET MORE storage for the extra resources, I need more harvestors....if I want to run my business without having to buy these componants from a MA(at increased cost to the consumer, which is always a bad thing unless its turning you more profit, which this wont), I would need 14 lots, and Im sorry but I dont see why I should be forced to pay for two accounts just to run a successful business.
All I want to do is run my Inn on rori, run some roleplay events and have fun, adding the extra hassle of containers is turning the profession into a job. I can see use for these, a master chef could find barrles useful if they wished to experiment high into the other areas(buff durations/strength/filling) without losing stack size, but those will be specialist items that wont sell regularly, and I just want to run a business that makes food accessable to all players at good quality, not cater to the leet PvP junkies who will pay through the nose just for the satisfaction of beating another person.
All I want to do is run my Inn on rori, run some roleplay events and have fun, adding the extra hassle of containers is turning the profession into a job. I can see use for these, a master chef could find barrles useful if they wished to experiment high into the other areas(buff durations/strength/filling) without losing stack size, but those will be specialist items that wont sell regularly, and I just want to run a business that makes food accessable to all players at good quality, not cater to the leet PvP junkies who will pay through the nose just for the satisfaction of beating another person.
ecp
Mon Feb 02, 2004 3:25 pm
#11
Do a lot trade for your factories you run components in, much easier that way, no way I could have the storage and food factories without that. Then you can have your 10 lots all for harvesters.
Numen
Mon Feb 02, 2004 3:28 pm
#12
Barrels will be useful for stuff with additives. Add in the meat or milk required for the additive and some become somewhat useful with a barrel.
With regular drinks it isn't worth it. The 360ish resources + 3 factory runs just is too much. For that same amount of resources and time you can almost make 5 times the crates of food and you don't have to have Master Artisan. Now when the cost of the barrel increases the cost of an item by only 2-3x and increases the quantity by 4-5x it becomes viable. With the possible exception of drinks with milk in them I don't see any current drink without an additive being useful to make with barrels.
Saving space isn't the big of a concern for most people. 4 extra crate per 1 can add up, but most people can live with extra crates. This might become more of a concern if more drinks become normal use and not just 2-3 that one person only uses. If they buy 10 different drinks to drink at different times Casks or Barrels might be more useful to them. 10 crates is a lot different than 30-40.
GadonThek
Mon Feb 02, 2004 3:38 pm
#13
With whom? Im not a mmber of a PA, and Ive no desire to be(not after my eperiances with CTF), and if I corss server lot trade, whats to stop the person deleting the character at some point and me losing my factories?
Plus, I also need at least 2 houses, my medium for my bar(which I AM going to put effort into, so it wont have room for storage), and a small house for storage, so thats 3-4 lots(5-6 if I find I need more storage). Im not risking my stockrooms or my very nicely decorated shop on someone else I dont know from another server.
Plus, I also need at least 2 houses, my medium for my bar(which I AM going to put effort into, so it wont have room for storage), and a small house for storage, so thats 3-4 lots(5-6 if I find I need more storage). Im not risking my stockrooms or my very nicely decorated shop on someone else I dont know from another server.
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