Chef Archive
Thread: SHOW ME THE MONEY!!1!!!!11!
Message Edited by jadeew on 08-30-2005 05:59 AM
When we have 4 lines ot EXP on, and only a max of 12/14pts to do it with, there will always be a situation where we won't get capped goods on ALL stats.
The thing to remember is that people want to be different from others. ie, in PVP, if everyone used exactly the same stat foods, people would find ways to neutralise those foods...so those combinations would become useless.
There will always be the possibility to innovate so long as we have left over places to put our points.
A great example of this was double buff Vercupti pre-curb. Normally, Vercupti was useless because of high fill, as soon as someone had the great idea to focus on the filling primarily, it took off as a great food to use.
I believe that our profession will always have this aspect to it, even if other things change.
I think possibly you are raising this issue in response to the Ent buff that would increase resource qual by 5%, I would suggest you look at your resources, and see how many are 950/950/950/950 OQ/PE/FL/DR. I would wager there are less than you have fingers to count with...It will not make our food capped, it will simply allow us to reach the cap easier on some lines, and at max 2/4. This is good for opening the market to newer Chefs, but at the same time, it is not going to penalise old Chefs.
LloydPickering wrote:
I dont think there will ever be a situation where our products are the same...
When we have 4 lines ot EXP on, and only a max of 12/14pts to do it with, there will always be a situation where we won't get capped goods on ALL stats.
The thing to remember is that people want to be different from others. ie, in PVP, if everyone used exactly the same stat foods, people would find ways to neutralise those foods...so those combinations would become useless.
There will always be the possibility to innovate so long as we have left over places to put our points.
A great example of this was double buff Vercupti pre-curb. Normally, Vercupti was useless because of high fill, as soon as someone had the great idea to focus on the filling primarily, it took off as a great food to use.
I believe that our profession will always have this aspect to it, even if other things change.
I think possibly you are raising this issue in response to the Ent buff that would increase resource qual by 5%, I would suggest you look at your resources, and see how many are 950/950/950/950 OQ/PE/FL/DR. I would wager there are less than you have fingers to count with...It will not make our food capped, it will simply allow us to reach the cap easier on some lines, and at max 2/4. This is good for opening the market to newer Chefs, but at the same time, it is not going to penalise old Chefs.
QFE
well, i am not master chef, but i am working towards it. So i would first like to say please forgive me for asking dumb questions. I started playing the game in beta. I have been with it since day one. I have only done combat, and after 2 years, getting ready to unlock my jedi. Since i have been so wrapped up in the village grind and all that, I have not had a chance to pursue my other passion. That is chef. I have wanted to do that as well since day one. So i am grinding it now. I look forward to making some awesome food. Anyway, I jsut wanted to say that have confidence that the devs will revamp us, or modify chefs, and make them a proffesion that people want to play..
i will let you know when i master...
LloydPickering wrote:
I dont think there will ever be a situation where our products are the same...
When we have 4 lines ot EXP on, and only a max of 12/14pts to do it with, there will always be a situation where we won't get capped goods on ALL stats.
The thing to remember is that people want to be different from others. ie, in PVP, if everyone used exactly the same stat foods, people would find ways to neutralise those foods...so those combinations would become useless.
There will always be the possibility to innovate so long as we have left over places to put our points.
A great example of this was double buff Vercupti pre-curb. Normally, Vercupti was useless because of high fill, as soon as someone had the great idea to focus on the filling primarily, it took off as a great food to use.
I believe that our profession will always have this aspect to it, even if other things change.
I think possibly you are raising this issue in response to the Ent buff that would increase resource qual by 5%, I would suggest you look at your resources, and see how many are 950/950/950/950 OQ/PE/FL/DR. I would wager there are less than you have fingers to count with...It will not make our food capped, it will simply allow us to reach the cap easier on some lines, and at max 2/4. This is good for opening the market to newer Chefs, but at the same time, it is not going to penalise old Chefs.
You are right in the fact that we will never be able to capall 4lines of experimentation. You also know that as Chefs, there is rarely a case where we experiment more than 2 lines on a food. We use resource stats to get certain aspects of our foods to acceptable levels and experiment the other aspects. For example Breath of Heaven...
I still maintain that filling is important on foods so I design my BoH to be 50 fill or less to leave the customer room for other drinks. In doing so, I must have resources with high DR. I experiment the whole fill line to achieve 49 fill. I then put the remaining points into power. The end result is 425 power 7:18 minutes 49 fill 6 uses.
Now I really only capped on 1 line of experimentation. With the buff I could maybe have an extra point or two left over to increase power more or maybe time. Maybe something like 435 power 8:18minutes 49 fill 6 uses.
Now the other guy that finished Master Chef 3 weeks ago doesn't have the better resources like I do. He cant compete so he goes for power. So his turns out 485 power 9:00 65 fill 6 uses. Now he gets a resource buff. Now he can hit 49 fill and decides that because my vendors do so well, he is gonna follow suit. He goes to work and manages 425 power8 minutes 50 fill 6 uses.
Now lets compare them side by side:
435power 8:18 minutes 49 fill 6 uses
420power 8:00 minutes50 fill 6 uses
These two items have now become virtually identical. The only difference is that I have been working towards this since March of 2004 and he just picked it up last month.
I gotta little story for you....
Maintaining a high volume Chef shop is a daunting task to begin with. As many of you grew just like me, you started purchasing resources instead of harvesting them yourself. Your local resource dealer always seems to have 500k of grind cereal or vegetables on hand for 2 CPU so you get it there instead of harvesting it yourself. If something really special comes along, you get your harvesters on it. There is not way you can keep up with the meat demand alone so you hire hunters to gather meats for you for 20-40 CPU. If you are like me, it is necessary to purchase these things instead of trying to gather them yourself. It's good for the economy to re-circulate the credits anyway, and many of them find their way back to your vendor at some point. I have a good margin, I make about 75% on foods. If something costs me 100k to manufacture, I charge 175k for it. Makin' some good scratch which allows me to enjoy other aspects of the game and give a little back every now and then.
Now the new guy comes along. He grabs what is available at the time for the most part and makes foods virtually identical to yours. Yes the veteran is still better, but in ways that are not really critical to the masses. He planned ahead and did some harvesting while he was grinding Chef. He was even able to get his guild mates to grab him some meat while they were grinding their templates. Now he's done with chef and he's ready to go....almost. He hits the trade boards right quick, gets a loan from the friends to get that +20 experimentation tape for 10 mil and nowhe's off and running.
So the new guy gets to thinking. He's here to make some quick cash and he has to pay back his buds for the tape. He cranks out as much food as he can as fast as he can and throws up a vendor. Turns on the vendor search and heads for Coronet or Mining Outpost to spam "Top quality Breath of Heaven 125k a crate!" Since he has virtually nothing invested in his resources now, he can sell this premium product at a very discounted rate. All he had to do is make 10 full runs and he now has a cool 50 mil in his pocket. Well, 40 mil after he pays his buddies back.
Now he thinks "Hmm, there's no way I can ever spend this much credits. No need to mess with this anymore." So he puts up the sign on his vendor tent "Vacationing on Tattoine until further notice" and goes about his business of PWNing everything he can. He spends a little here and there and somehow manages to dwindle that 40 mil down to 5 mil.
whelp it worked last time, lets do it again! Rinse, repeat.
I fear that because of the obvious lack of challenge that will be in the crafting professions after this goes live, many of the true Masters will move on to other things leaving the communities with a bunch of empty vendor tents while their respective owners are vacationing on Tattoine only to return to make another withdrawal from the community.
jadeew, I think you're overestimating the power of the resource buff.
To hit 50 fill on BoH requires roughly 850 DR / OQ. If you're using bare-minimum resources (unlikely, given how long you've been accumulating resources), than that three week old chef would need 833 (if chef retains the 2% bonus) or 810 (with the proposed 5% bonus) DR / OQ resources to match your numbers with the buff. The difficulty in finding 850+ resources isn't that much grater than finding 810+ resources. I did a quick swgcraft search on "Rice" on my server (searching the full history), with "Minimum Values" for OQ and DR:
- OQ & DR > 850: 19 resources
- OQ & DR > 833 (2% buff): 22 resources
- OQ & DR > 810 (5% buff): 28 resources
So a 2% buffed chef would have 3 more resource options, a 5% buffed chef would have 9 more options.
I admit, the resource accumulation "mini game" of crafting is one way that long-time or knowlegable crafters have an edge over new contenders. The resource buff will make it easier for all chefs to hit certain desirable stats (50 fill, hour duration, +25 buff, whatever), but in my opinion it's not really any different from a just-starting crafting getting his hands on good resources (whether using a large bankroll to buy them, having a guild "resource bank", or inheriting from a leaving player).
The resource buff may reduce the "challenge" at the extreme upper end of the food spectrum, but I don't think it'll replace actual player knowlege of proper stat comparison and resource accumulation.
sciguyCO wrote:
jadeew, I think you're overestimating the power of the resource buff.
To hit 50 fill on BoH requires roughly 850 DR / OQ. If you're using bare-minimum resources (unlikely, given how long you've been accumulating resources), than that three week old chef would need 833 (if chef retains the 2% bonus) or 810 (with the proposed 5% bonus) DR / OQ resources to match your numbers with the buff. The difficulty in finding 850+ resources isn't that much grater than finding 810+ resources. I did a quick swgcraft search on "Rice" on my server (searching the full history), with "Minimum Values" for OQ and DR:
- OQ & DR > 850: 19 resources
- OQ & DR > 833 (2% buff): 22 resources
- OQ & DR > 810 (5% buff): 28 resources
So a 2% buffed chef would have 3 more resource options, a 5% buffed chef would have 9 more options.
I admit, the resource accumulation "mini game" of crafting is one way that long-time or knowledgeable crafters have an edge over new contenders. The resource buff will make it easier for all chefs to hit certain desirable stats (50 fill, hour duration, +25 buff, whatever), but in my opinion it's not really any different from a just-starting crafting getting his hands on good resources (whether using a large bankroll to buy them, having a guild "resource bank", or inheriting from a leaving player).
The resource buff may reduce the "challenge" at the extreme upper end of the food spectrum, but I don't think it'll replace actual player knowledge of proper stat comparison and resource accumulation.
But the fact is that there is usually something pretty good available at any given time. So if not BoH then Vegeparsine or whatever. It just seems to me that they are doing 2 things here, removing what is fun for theveteran craftersand making it all about credits. Neither of these I like.
I have never been a "the sky is falling" kind of guy. You know that from my previous posts here about a lot of other subjects. I am not upset about this at all either. I do disagree with it though. I do fear they are removing what I find fun in this game. I would give up my Full template Jedi and my Bounty Hunter in a second before I gave up my Chef. I will not be quitting Chef when this goes live. I will see how it all turns out. But I am usually right about things like this and fear that the one thing that I have gotten consistent entertainment out of for 17 months is coming to an end. If that happens, I have no choice but to move on, and since many of the other veterans craft for the same reasons I do, they will inevitably follow.
MTVGeneration wrote:
I have a slight problem with this.
Basically you're stating that Chefs that have been around 18months or more are being shafted as your food won't be that much better than newer Chefs. But ypu also say you are happy for new Chefs to enter the profession. Are you saying that you don't mind having new Chefs around as long as they make inferior food because having been around 18months or more should make you better?
Don't get me wrong I realise that I've taken your comments to the extreme a little but I am a respec Chef. In fact I have 2 respec Chefs. I started Chef purely because I wanted a craft to make me some credits and after trying out several durin g the respec I settled on Chef as I liked it the most. Now I am completely hooked. But I ahve gone out of my way to get the best Resources, Investing 90m and then some in gettign myself up to speed with those who are more established. So if I was on your server should I be making inferior food just because I am newer?
Don't misunderstand me, I disagree with these new ent buffs and feel they could have made ents more useful without going down this route. I also acknowledge that you're not a whiner, far from it and are one of the most helpful people on the Chef Forum but I find your comments rather curious that was all.
You missed the point completely. The fact is that getting started is a real pain in the ass. You either have to invest a lot of credits as you did or a lot of time. This tends to weed out the guys trying it to make a quick buck. You obviously are in it for the long haul as you have invested a substantial amount of credits in the profession. To you I say welcome, if you have any questions give me a shout. To the guy that wants to set up shop and make 50 mil right quick and let the vendors fall empty until he needs to make another withdrawal from the community I say move along, yourkind is not needed here.
jadeew wrote:
MTVGeneration wrote:
I have a slight problem with this.
Basically you're stating that Chefs that have been around 18months or more are being shafted as your food won't be that much better than newer Chefs. But ypu also say you are happy for new Chefs to enter the profession. Are you saying that you don't mind having new Chefs around as long as they make inferior food because having been around 18months or more should make you better?
Don't get me wrong I realise that I've taken your comments to the extreme a little but I am a respec Chef. In fact I have 2 respec Chefs. I started Chef purely because I wanted a craft to make me some credits and after trying out several durin g the respec I settled on Chef as I liked it the most. Now I am completely hooked. But I ahve gone out of my way to get the best Resources, Investing 90m and then some in gettign myself up to speed with those who are more established. So if I was on your server should I be making inferior food just because I am newer?
Don't misunderstand me, I disagree with these new ent buffs and feel they could have made ents more useful without going down this route. I also acknowledge that you're not a whiner, far from it and are one of the most helpful people on the Chef Forum but I find your comments rather curious that was all.
You missed the point completely. The fact is that getting started is a real pain in the ass. You either have to invest a lot of credits as you did or a lot of time. This tends to weed out the guys trying it to make a quick buck. You obviously are in it for the long haul as you have invested a substantial amount of credits in the profession. To you I say welcome, if you have any questions give me a shout. To the guy that wants to set up shop and make 50 mil right quick and let the vendors fall empty until he needs to make another withdrawal from the community I say move along, yourkind is not needed here.
Apologies. I just wanted to get clarification on your views as I have only been playing just over 6 months now and I have gotten a lot of comments off people who are elitist and think that having been longer makes them better and that newer players or players who have chosed a new path later on in their SWG in game career should be penalised.
I am not convinved that anyone can make a quick 50m and then walk away. The investment in tissues to have half a well stocked vendor is considerable plus even mediocre resources can be quite pricy. Just making casks takes patience!!! Also I consider myself one of the top few chefs on my server but I still notice that a lot of people go to who I consider the Best on my server even tho the difference between our foods imo is negligable at best as we're both 12/14 pointers and obviously using extremely good resources and his products are just that touch more expensive. There are things that you can't just getin 5 minutes and thats a reputation and people, especially the hardcore PvPers (who are probably the core of my customer base as they are conniseurs (excuse spelling!) and go out of their way to buy the best) don't settle for 2nd best in anything. Not armour, not weapons and not food. These are the guys who look for every little edge they can get and are willign to pay for it usually.
So in general I still disagree with the new ent system but just wanted to clear that up.
Icompletely agree that "new chefs" should not be able come in and make a quick buck and then leave, because that leaves the entire community hurting. I don't agree that's going to happen, though. I've seen this argument several times, but it still seems to me that getting quality resources isn't as easy as you make it out to be.
I'm a new chef and I've been DILIGENTLY searching and cateloguing the resources on my server for the past 3 weeks (using swgcraft.com to share the wealth knowledge with others). In 3 weeks,3 decent* spawns and 2 excellent* spawns have ... er, spawned. This is out of all the planets, minus Endor and Yavin 4 because they scare me. (And I don't know if I'm going back to Dathomir either). As we all know, it takes a lot more than5 types of semi-decent materials to make a good variety of chef food.
(Sidebar: Decent - 2flora @ 1 stat >850, 1 stat >950, 2 stats around 350, 1 water spawn 1 stat >800, 1 stat >900
Excellent - 2 flora 1 stat >700, 1 stat >850, 2 stats >900)
I belong to an entertainer guild, and they're always like, "What are you doing?" Out checking my harvestors, planting new ones, finding good resources. Then, sitting and grinding while they're dancing and making friends with the people thatcome into the cantina. I honestly do not see how someone could waltz into the profession, put minimal effort in, and walk away a rich mo fo. Perhaps it's been so long since you've started up that you can't remember what it was like--but it isn't easy.
I'm not trying to be rude or anything, just trying to point out that what you fear may not be a concern. It's not as easy as you fear it to be!!