Carbineer Archive
Thread: Are Pistoleers The Best Class Now?
Want to get your opinions 'cause I use carbines a lot:
Been thinking about this since the new publish yesterday. I'm gonna post this on several other relevant forums, too, to get the widest range of advice and opinions.
Someone correct my thinking if you think I'm wrong, but I think Pistoleer, with CH skill backup, is the way to go in this game now for any veteran player that wants to dominate in PvE or PvP. Here's why:
1. Pistoleers had their defense ENHANCED. Riflemen got improvements, too, but Pistoleers were already way ahead of them and since Pistoleers got enhanced, too, Riflemen are still behind.
2. Krayt FWGs will no longer be able to be manufactured, making the ones thatPistoleers nowhave even more valuable and deadly.
3. Guns don't decay when you die, but other stuff that's important to other classes, like Bio-engineered clothes, does. What an incredible advantage for all gunmen, but for Pistoleers, with the above two advantages, too, what a crusher. No contest.
I did BH Carbine 3 and LLC 4 in BH line to supplement my MCH, 'cause I love the LLC weapon and I wanted Fire Knockdown shot to perhaps try PvP someday. Because the LLC is so mighty, I thought this was at least equal to and perhaps a little better than just using uber-pistols. If you've ever used LLC 4, you know what I'm talking about.
But now, with Pistoleers having such overwhelming advantages, I think Pistoleer skills and BH Pistol 4 skills beat the heck out of my combo.
I haven't tried knockdown shots yet since the new publish, but they'd have to be much better than I think they are to beat out Pistoleers now.
as for the defensive mods, i haven't seen the beefed up stats do much. counterattack was supposed to have been beefed up for carbineers, but i didn't see it once last night. however time will tell. we'll see if pistoleers start doing very well in combat because their resist to state changes has been upped. (the pistoleer correspondant is of the opinion that those mods don't help much at all.)
i don't think pistoleer by itself is that good at all... there's no ranged knockdown. not even in BH pistol. most 'pistoleers' these days are smugglers using last ditch for knockdown then switching to stoppingshot or eyeshot.
anyhow... carbineer is still good for pvp because /chargeshot1 is 'working as intended' still. just alternate chargeshot with cripplingshot.
First we should review the changes made to the ranged classes:
* Pistoleer - Higher Defenses for Melee, and state changes. Ranged defense is still +7.
* Carbineer - Increased Counterattack and accuracy.
* Riflemen - Increasted Ranged/Melee Defense, and accuracy.
Dodge, Block, and Counter attack are effective all the same at this point in time, just "dodge". Pistoleer & Carbhineer have about the same (+105, I don't have Pistoleer's exact number on hand ATM, but it was about this), and Riflemen Block as a little lower if I remember correctly. Riflemen's new Range/Melee Defense was upped from +20/+20 to about +50/50 (also don't have these number on screen ATM, but you can look in game for exact numbers).
Profession Pro/Con:
* Pistoleer - good defense against melee and state changes, low HAM weapons, generally lower damage weapons, no AP weapons (that work), virtually no ranged defense (bad since most players use ranged weapons).
* Carbineer - good AP, but med HAM cost, ranged KD (although not 100%, ranged KD is important), mild ranged defense, virtually no melee defense.
* Riflemen - fairly good ranged/melee defense, deadliest targeted pool, high dmg/AP weapons, uses a lot of Mind though.
PvE with CH as suggested by original poster:
* All professions can PvE awesome with CH, doesn't matter what weapon you use. Melee benefit a little less as they have to stand in range to me hit. Carbineer has the bonus of a ranged KD to help out and good AP weapons. Riflemen, also still rocking with this setup. HAM in PvE is an issue easily resolved and is not Profession based (unless they are a Medic/Doc themselves).
PvP:
From the test conducted between the Master Ranged Weapon Professions listed at the top.
WITHOUT BUFFS Starting at 50m - Wins: Riflemen 53%, Carbineer 33%, Pistoleer 14%.
The fights were unrestricted outside of the starting range. Rifleman 1-shot or 2-shot killed therefore high win %. Carbineer won every fight he was not 1-shot by the Rifleman and successfully landed a KD (usually the KD happened with in 2 tries). Pistoleer lost here a lot as lets fast it "fast rated" weapons and "slow rated" weapons are all the same at Master and rarely got close enough to KD - I would also assume the lack of Ranged Defense had a BIG part in this as well.
We skipped further unbuffed test as most real PvPers make efforts to get at least Doc buffs.
WITH MASTER DOC BUFFS Starting at 50m - Wins: Rifleman 46%, Pistoleer 30%, Carbineer 24%.
The Rifleman still landed a fair deal of 1 or 2 shot kills to the mind, or bleeds so still up there, but when failing to do so lost more often now. Pistoleer made a nice jump with buffs as the Carbineer didn't totally own him using ActionShot (his primary HAM cost). Carbineer, still out totally out of the game, he just suffered most loses to the Pistoleer now as he wasn't killing them on KD or with ActionShot quick enough, they were near 50/50 though. 70% mind incap (we did not note this on the first test as they were fairly even, but with the Doc buffs it was mostly mind incaps that won).
WITH MASTER DOC BUFFS Starting at 20m - We made this big jump as the 50m buffed fights were generally long enough (outside of the rifleman) to assume small change wouldn't matter. Wins: Pistoleer 38%, Rifleman 36%, Carbineer 26%.
Here the Pistoleer excelled for obvious reasons, he has in range to KD rather quickly and try to take advantage of that as well as the negative effects of that range against Riflemen. Rifleman still fairing pretty well as he can still 1 or 2 shot kill at this range (from standing by choice, he tried running as needed), one thing he wanted to note was he did BETTER in the close fights if he wasn't using as many specials (AKA, he tried to 1/2 shot, but then just bleed and kitting and took a few shots against Mind). Carbineer, although this wasn't a horrible range for a Carbineer, he doesn't really benefit from it either, he tried using a DXR6 (?) but said the Mind cost wasn't worth it and switched back to using E11 & Laser. 68% mind incaps.
WITH MASTER DOC, DANCER, MUSIC BUFFS at 50m - Wins: Rifleman 43%, Carbineer 30%, Pistoleer 27%.
Rifleman still won here as the Mind buffs let him use specials freely and he did some scary Bleeds and in the end Master Doc buffs provided higher protection for Health/Action than Mind buffs could provide (AKA Str 600 + 1500-2500 buffs, but Focus/Willpower 600 + 600 buffs). Carbineer and pistoleer were pretty even, but in the non-mind incap wins, the Carbineer basically won because his bleeds to Action were more effective than Bleeds to health against him. Pistoleer probably would do better if he had more ranged defense. 57% mind incaps, this number dropped as expected, but it's still the deciding factor.
We did not conduct more test as it seemed pointless with how long the 1 on 1 fights were going.
Some more info on the players:
* All players had at least 850 Mind, Focus 500, Willpower 500.
* They used Adv Composite Armor of at least 56% to everything but stun (you know how resist are on composite). The Pistoleer had 7% stun protection on his Helm, Chest and Legs.
* All weapons were sliced for the player's flavor and were not Kyart.
* Pistoleer used a FWG5, DX2, and Tangle Pistol (only a few times).
* Carbineer used an array of E11 , Elite, and Laser.
* Rifleman used T21, Jawa Ion, and another one I don't know, I'll get back to you on that if I have time and can find this post.
We're still compiling data in logs, these were just the easiest stats to collect.
DISCLAIMER: Not all players, armor or weapons are made equally! Actually results may vary! Each of these players came with their best armor and weapons which are also from the "best" smiths on the server short of Kyart. All slices on their items were 27-38%, but all guns were at least 33% sliced. We did LIVE combat test, NOT standing still fire at standing still target, each player had their pride and fought aggressively as they could - they were allowed to heal themselves, but they only used 400 heal Stim-Bs provided by myself and their medic skills were reasonably the same (just FA Line mostly, not like any were Master Medics or Master Docs, that's ME!). We don't have a test pre-patch as we did not realize how much was changing in this patch, lots of silent bug fixes/nerfs/changes. I made only minor conjucture of why someone won and lost, but it was based on what I saw. I AM A CARBINEER/Master Doc, I don't benefit from people going "Oh so Pistoleers aren't going to be UBER". I also did not fight, only healed (not in combat of course), buffed, rezed as needed. We did not conduct a test with a Master Commando, Master BH, or BH Dabbler as they were either not available from our circle of friends and the was mostly a test of the changes in the patch which did not really effect them that much but we plan to do this again sometime this weekend with a Master Commando and Master BH (non-dabbler, as that adds to many variables). We also will do this with a Master TK and Master Fencer, don' t know any Master Pikemen or Swordsmen myself, not sure if they do. One of us plan to make a more detailed post after we collect all our data.
Laters... I think this took an hour just to write. Wow!
Hope this helps you all in some way.
Master Dragger, Drunken FriarNo pistoleers aren't the best PvP
Sry to tell you this - but Most ppl dabble in the pistol line like - BH pistol/Pistoleer
Or Smuggler/pistoleer
Alien, of all the replies to all my posts today, yours is the best, most objective and most scientific.
It's also changed my mind about becoming a Pistoleer. I'll keep some good pistols around for my Master Marksmen skills, but carbineer looks OK to me now.
And Rifleman seems beter to me than before.
Could it be, that, -gasp-, the three gunman professions are equal now? Your tests seem to show this.
This guy is spamming this post on multiple boards to incite riots over pistoleers. It's on the BH forum also.
The pistol changes to the FWG5 and scatter will make carbines more effective in a few months when all the pre-nerf hand-cannons are worn out.
-- Ypi
Ypiana, I'm just trying to get knowledge. Nothing more, nothing less. If you are incited, you are inciting yourself, lol.
I find it advantageous to ask as many relevant people as possible so I can get as much knowledge as possible.
And through all the flames, I got it. Pistoleers are not gonna be any better than the other two professions. Looks like they are roughly equal, which is the way it should be.
Not bad, I stand corrected and thank everyone, especially alien, for their input.
ok first this carabineer used stupid guns - e11? elite? helloooo
Second - I don't see how pistoleer can ever get a kill from a carabineer - my KD works every time so a pistoleer will be spending the fight flat on his back
3rd the Elite class now(from the purist ranged professsions)is rifleman . A strafe2 shot with a T21 does usually about 4k damage and add 2k from heavy armor piercing VS light armor - you have a 1 shot kill - although if buffed I'd personally go for the mind pool
Also riflemans have higher speed than carabineers (90VS60) so they can shoot this strafe shot every 1.5 second VS 4 seconds for that killer shot - /crippleshot, that every body seems to be raving about
Also riflemen are better in PvE since as of the last patch they can pick their enemies one by one with a conceal shot and the enemies don't even know they're shot - I personally killed a group of dathomir witch slaves and they didn't fire 1 shot back- also a rifleman with a CH combo hits with strafe a kraytdragon for much higher damage (7.5 times the damage of the T21 rifle minus the protections of course ) than a carabineer can hit with the puny laser carabine with 270 stock damage
On the other hand I don't see why the pistoleerdidn't use the newgun either - - you've all heard about the republic blaster working again - it's about 200 damage ap1.
anyway - I don't mean to put down the original poster of the experimentation - just adding a few pointers
have you seen the stats on the republic blaster?
pistols are the best