Carbineer Archive

k, I try never to troll in other people's forums, so last night I picked up 3 boxes of carbine under marksman (again...) and all I can say is Wow! Your guns are laying out some serious damage! Picked up a little DH17 snubnose and am looking forward to grabbing a laser carbine tonight.

Now, it would appear to me that carbineers are under the VERY mistaken impressions that Pistoleers get scatter pistols (heavy damage, AR1). This is entirely incorrect. Our "elite" weapon is the DX2 (currently still pretty much sucks on Ahazi, my best one is acid/2.4/83-130). Having lurked on this forum for a few days, it also appears to me that you guys think pistoleers get some sort of targeted mind damage (eye shot). Both the scatter pistol and eye shot that I see people complaining about are Bounty Hunter skills. Scatter pistol is a novice BH cert, and eye shot comes with first pistol box.

I think carbineers are probably hosed on getting HAM costs reduced, as I believe that is exactly what the devs intended. Your combination of damage and crowd control is (currently) unmatched. I am Pistoleer 2/4/4/2 and have NO crowd control and one melee knockdown (which is why I was thinking about picking up more carbine).

I've been a BH, and can honestly say I was hitting for 11-1200+ with double tap (2 boxes up grips & stances) using a scatter, so maybe you're complaints about pistoleers would be better placed with the BH crowd.

Since posture-down and knock-down are both being nerfed with a 20 or 30 second timer (looking to be 30 seconds right now) before they can be reapplied to a target, the carbineer "crowd control" capability is being effectively demolished.

This leaves us with the questionable ability of targeting the action pool, anda questionable (in the absence of crowd control) early availability ofarea damage specials.

If our crowd controlling weren't being nerfed, then I would certainly agree - I also saw our HAM costs as the trade-off for the utility of our specials.

In terms of pure averagedamage per second on autoattack, carbines will only edge out pistols in the hands of a high level user with a large +speed modifier

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Iraea wrote:

Since posture-down and knock-down are both being nerfed with a 20 or 30 second timer (looking to be 30 seconds right now) before they can be reapplied to a target, the carbineer "crowd control" capability is being effectively demolished.

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Now where did you get this?

The "posts" from Holo that I read, they were specifically talking about KD's ... as in "on your butt" and not posture downs.

Did I miss something on the Dev tracker or did you read something into it that was not there?

Hero out

The initial post about these ideas say "30 second timer added to knockdowns/posture changes."

Firstly: Carbines have similar DPS to pistols and rifles.

Secondly, We know that BH get eye shot and the scatter pistol, which is why most of the times when there is someone commenting on it they usually refer to it as 'Bounty Pistol' skills or BH pistol skills.

Thirdly, With the nerfs to posture-change and knockdown Carbineers are screwed on most of their higher-level styles. Our version of the 'double-tap' is called Cripple shot, and besides Leg/actionshots and Cripple shot we don't have much as far as specials go.

Fourthly, You just CAN'T wait until you get some big nasty styles to use with that laser carbine you are looking forward to. Oh, by the way, you will notice that the big styles with the laser carbine will cost you 110-160 or so HAM per use, which is 3-4X what a pistol style costs, and about on par with a rifle style (which is meant to be a slow-fireing, heavy damage weapon, so they fire 3x as slow).

And one more thing: the DX2 is about on par with the scatter pistol. They are almost identical in DPS, Damage type, speed, AR, and Damage. If you have two well-made ones they are pretty much identical except that they look different when you shoot them. If you notice the threads about OUR 'special' weapon, it is the Elite carbine, which is a cruel joke of a name, as it is everything but elite. It has crappy DPS, chews HAM like mad, has a commonly resisted damage type, is AR1, and really isn't all that cool or unique, basically a Laser Carbine that chews more HAM, does less damage, and has worse AR.

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Xetal wrote:

Firstly: Carbines have similar DPS to pistols and rifles.

Secondly, We know that BH get eye shot and the scatter pistol, which is why most of the times when there is someone commenting on it they usually refer to it as 'Bounty Pistol' skills or BH pistol skills.

Thirdly, With the nerfs to posture-change and knockdown Carbineers are screwed on most of their higher-level styles. Our version of the 'double-tap' is called Cripple shot, and besides Leg/actionshots and Cripple shot we don't have much as far as specials go.

Fourthly, You just CAN'T wait until you get some big nasty styles to use with that laser carbine you are looking forward to. Oh, by the way, you will notice that the big styles with the laser carbine will cost you 110-160 or so HAM per use, which is 3-4X what a pistol style costs, and about on par with a rifle style (which is meant to be a slow-fireing, heavy damage weapon, so they fire 3x as slow).

And one more thing: the DX2 is about on par with the scatter pistol. They are almost identical in DPS, Damage type, speed, AR, and Damage. If you have two well-made ones they are pretty much identical except that they look different when you shoot them. If you notice the threads about OUR 'special' weapon, it is the Elite carbine, which is a cruel joke of a name, as it is everything but elite. It has crappy DPS, chews HAM like mad, has a commonly resisted damage type, is AR1, and really isn't all that cool or unique, basically a Laser Carbine that chews more HAM, does less damage, and has worse AR.

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HAM cost: yes, noticed this. Also noticed that I'm getting more damage, albeit with slower rate of fire, with laser carbine and fullauto1 as I get with fanshot. This is approximately a million points of weapon xp difference. Is pistol faster, yes. Is laser carbine AP2, YES! If we're gonna compare, let's make sure it's apples to apples please. You're specials do not cost me 3-4x what my pistol specials cost (action pool is the only thing that really matters to me):
FWG5 with fanshot costs me almost 80 action: 700-1200 heat damage
laser carbine with legshot2 costs me 113 action: 800-1400 damage + it's AP2(normal damage on medium armor vs my 1/2 damage)

Our specials are also "broken", I grinded a million pistol xp to get some random HAM shots. Our only pool targeting shot is BS3, which has been proven time and again to have nowhere near the DPS of BS2 from the marksman tree.

This comment also applies directly to DX2 vs Scatter. DX2 is either bugged or not "really" an AP1 weapon. The AP plus works on gnorts and chubas and not much else. I average 130-150 on my 2.1 speed DX2 from the floateys from an average mob. The only reason to use my DX2 is vs heat resistant mobs, period. I'm not sure what galaxy you're in, but on Ahazi, the best DX2 I've seen (and I look alot!) is 93-140/2.7. Compare this to sub-2 second scatters pumping out 180+ max.

I simply disagree that carbine has worse AP weapons. An AP2 weapon at 3rd marksman box? Puhleeze...Take an average laser carbine, add slice, and you're pushing what? 2 seconds tops? That's only half my speed as pistoleer wihtout skill mods and you're alreayd pumping out over 2x the damage. Yes the HAM usage is tough, but I have to buff/heal like crazy to chain my specials together too.

The short and the long of this is that both trees have their advantages and disadvantages. Pistol is faster with a lower HAM cost and damage (at same skill level) while carbine is slower with a much higher HAM cost and damage output. My main concern, since I see several carbineers posting on the pistol boards is that the facts are straight regarding what a "real" pistoleer can do vs what a pistoleer/BH can do. We may never convince each other that either pistol or carbine is especially screwed compared to the other guy, but we can make sure we're arguing about the same things. I invite any carbineer who doubts that he can put out similar or superior damage to me as 2/4/4/2 pistol to come hang out with me on Ahazi and we'll compare notes.

The laser carbine, while drooled over constantly by people who don't understand math very well, is not as good as many people think it is. Yes it is AP2 and yes it has 250 max damage. However, the sheer about of mobs with AR1 and 25% energy resist (which is = to AR2) is astonding. They are everywhere. In these cases, an acid or heat carbine is far better off.

That being said, lets move to the DX2...it is AR1 and acid. The one I own is 83-133, 2.3 reload. A mere 20% damage slice turns this into a 100-160 damage pistol firing every 2.3 seconds. This same pistol requires 54 HAM for me to fire.

That's insane damage, at insane speed for only 54 HAM! My Legshots cost me anywhere from 88-105 depending on my carbine.

I *AM* a pistoleer AND a carbineer. I have played both, I know the strengths and weaknesses. With carbines its all about locking a mob down and watching him bleed while you firing mostly default attacks. No other technique works unless you have a medic healing you constantly. Pistols on the other hand deal out insane damage really fast and they do so without almost killing the shooter. The simple truth is that when the fight is done, using a pistol my HAM bars are fuller than when using a carbine.

Pistols have similar damage to carbines but fire FASTER, for LESS HAM, hit at ANY RANGE and take less damage in melee because THEIR MELEE DAMAGE PENALTY IS MINIMAL.

Pistols are NOT balanced compared to carbines no matter how you try to spin the argument.

This is not an attempt at spin control. I would make no argument that pistols require less HAm and can do similar damage in -some- situations. I think the most telling comment nova makes is that both have strengths AND weaknesses currently. Carbine costs more to use, but -can- lockdown a whole mob and fire gleefully away starting at what I consider to be a very early level (FullAutoArea1?). In my albeit limited experience (I did master marksman once before, but have never gone above carbine spec), carbines can lay down -considerably- more damage in a single shot. Combined with early area affects, this is the carbine's strength and precisely the reason I am currently pursuing more carbine xp because I am almost entirely PvE focused. The pistol on the other hand can lay down some very impressive damage one on one and pretty quickly, but how many missions do you take anymore that are one target or aren't assistive mobs? Tactics can make a big difference (bleed, warningshot...next target), but once the pack aggros, I'm running for my life from blue mobs.

You call pistol damage "insane", yet I can do every bit as much damage on an unarmored target in one shot with a laser carbine ***SEVEN*** levels below my current pistol xp (pistol 2/4/4/2, marksman 0/4/3/4). I have spent over 2 million pistol points and about 25k carbine. I have yet to see anyone address that in a damage analysis.

Carbineers have issues with their weapons, as do pistoleers. The devs have mentioned -many- new weapon certs, which will hopefully fix that.

I'm not sure what you're using for HAM numbers, but fanshot (my current highest pistol special) use 86 action and hits for anywhere from 300 to 1300 random HAM with no state change. Fullauto1 with the laser carbine hits for between 700-1200 and changes states pretty often, and uses 118 (dunno what health). Frankly, I see a valid tradeoff there. This certainly explains why I see so many doctor/carbineers in the field.

I personally am going to try to find a good mix of both skills so when the nerf bat hits me yet again, mebbe I won't have to get pissed off and leave.

Greeble: 2 things to keep in mind. The pistol doing 1300max hitstwo times in the amount of time that that 1200max laser carbine hits once, and laser damage in inconsistent. Second locking down creatures was never reliable for more than one creature and is no longer even possible for one creature with a 30 second timer between posture changes/knockdown.

I am aware of that, but also keep in mind that my FWG5 that hits for a max of 12-1300, will probably do at least 3 or 4 2-300 pt hits in between a big one. And this is using my top, sub-par attack on a random HAM pool. Yes I hit faster, but the laser carbine will consistently do -more- damage due to AP2, although at a slower rate. I will try to build some numbers to back this claim up in the next few days.

We (pistoleers) are not so different than the carbineers or riflepersons, either in our complaints or our concerns.

Additionally, keep in mind that, while all the combat professions are being nerfed hard with the upcoming posture change/kd timer, this is almost an un-nerf for CH. Without the ability to control crowds, you will now HAVE to have a tank. At the same time, they are removing the medic's incentive to come along to heal critters by removing the xp for doing so.

It almost seems like the devs have their hearts set on keeping us grinding for months and months to move up levels, without realizing that there is little to no possibility that it's going to happen. The powergamers will find a way around it, and the rest of us will get fed up shooting gnorts and durnis and leave. At 175k/250/350/450 per level, there is no way I'm going to level up in this lifetime at -1- point per critter.

"k, I try never to troll in other people's forums"

If that isn't true, then I guess I'm at a loss as to why you are posting this to begin with?

Your initial post makes no less than 2 references to your "assumptions" of what Carbineers on a whole believe, as if any goup who uses one weapon type must ALL think exactly the same. Please.

Your posts have ZERO constructive value, and only serve to explain how YOU think WE as a group must be mistaken about our perceptions of pistol users.

I think the most telling phrase of your true troll-like intentions would be:

"We (pistoleers) are not so different than the carbineers or riflepersons, either in our complaints or our concerns"

Lol what is that, a Public Service Announcement?

Cmon man, be honest and I will have more respect for you.

Did you come here to defend pistoleers from the perceptions of carbine users(hmm guilty conscience?)?

And if so, why? SHould I look to the Rifleman forum for a post just like this one?

Or did you just want to start an argument?

Whatever the answer, it's obvious you could care less about carbineers and are just worried your precious pistol will get nerfed (which coincidentally, it probably will).

Not to mention getting 3 boxes in the carbine marksman tree hardly makes youthe foremost expert (especially using a DH17 rofl).

Cyene

"Your posts have ZERO constructive value, and only serve to explain how YOU think WE as a group must be mistaken about our perceptions of pistol users. I think the most telling phrase of your true troll-like intentions would be"

This was exactly the intention of the post. It was my impression that straight pistoleers were being lumped in with BH/pistol, which is entirely an incorrect assessment. Forgive my audacity to try and correct mistaken perceptions. In the future, base your complaints on accurate information and it won't be necesary.

"Your initial post makes no less than 2 references to your "assumptions" of what Carbineers on a whole believe, as if any goup who uses one weapon type must ALL think exactly the same."

Pulled from my impressions after spending some time reading the carbineer forum.

"Whatever the answer, it's obvious you could care less about carbineers and are just worried your precious pistol will get nerfed (which coincidentally, it probably will)."

You obviously aren't paying attention. Every carbine skill I've gotten, I've given up pistoleer skills to get. You are more than welcome to stop your whining and put someone else's shoes on for a minute. Drop a couple carbine boxes and pick up some pistol. See if your complaints ring true then. You're right, pistol will be getting nerfed just like everything else, and most especially carbine. Without crowd control, all carbine has is higher AP and a few more AoE damage hits.

"Not to mention getting 3 boxes in the carbine marksman tree hardly makes you the foremost expert (especially using a DH17 rofl)"

Totally agree, but at least I'm trying. What are you doing besides trolling someone else's thread?

"Or did you just want to start an argument? "

I'd love to if you'd actually make one. A good argument is hard to find.

"This was exactly the intention of the post. It was my impression that straight pistoleers were being lumped in with BH/pistol, which is entirely an incorrect assessment. Forgive my audacity to try and correct mistaken perceptions. In the future, base your complaints on accurate information and it won't be necesary."

Thank you for making my point very clearly. So you are here as just an FYI for all us ignorant carbineer folk? Exactly who's mistaken impressions were you trying to correct? I don't recall ever posting here OR in the pistoleer forum about anything you are complaining about. My point was, you saw a post or two here where some idiot spouted nonsense and assumed that all carbineers need to be educated. Forgive me if I doubt your "noble" inentions. Though I do think these boards need more "Complaint Police"....

"Pulled from my impressions after spending some time reading the carbineer forum."

Judging by your responses, that must have been a most productive 15 minutes.

"Drop a couple carbine boxes and pick up some pistol. See if your complaints ring true then."

Ok....I'll try to type slow in hopes that this gets through to you. I have not complained about pistol. That was my exact point. You are lumping EVERYONE on these boards as people who are whining about pistoleers or are ignorant about them, and honestly, its extremely asinine. You come to the CARBINEER FORUM and basically say "I am a pistoleer, but I got a couple carbine boxes and I dunno what all you guys are complaining about". If thats not baiting an ENTIRE forum, please explain to me what the real intention was. Then you go on to champion your cause to us by saying you are more broken. Jesus man who cares...tis not your message, its how and where you decided to vomit it forth.

"You're right, pistol will be getting nerfed just like everything else, and most especially carbine."

Is this also part of your evangelsitic message? I'm just trying to clear the air here...you wanted to make sure we all knew this, right?

"Totally agree, but at least I'm trying. What are you doing besides trolling someone else's thread?"

Actually, I'm just calling you out for what you are. You have already said yourself you are here to "educate" us. Thank you, but I don't need educating. Maybe next time you should write down the name of the person making incorrect pistolleer assumptions and send them a PM instead of just arbitrarily assuming we all need to hear this.

Let me be clear. I don't care about arguing with you about who is more broken, pistoleers or carbineers. I don't care. If you feel pistoleer is so bad off, by all means become a carbineer (or stay in the pistol forum to complain, either works for me). Just don't think any of us are fooled by your supposed "intentions", because they are woefully transparent.

Cyene