Carbineer Archive
Thread: ANTI class vs class comparison post
There was a recent post where someone stated all the stats of certain skill trees and suggested their tree get a boost. Now there was no reason why they need it. No reason why this person feels he is being robbed other then cramming numbers for different trees that are supposed to retain their own unique attributes.
What I find the most humorous of the whole situation is other posts of ppl wondering just what does +10 to speed or acc does? Why demand something you don’t even understand. Now keep in mind this is just one example.
I have seen correspondents have in their reports listing why the other class is better and they should either be the better or at par with something that is not part of their skill tree, and uses a totally different weapon. I thought Correspondents were supposed to help fix problems with their current class, not give the misunderstood a pat on the back.
Fact of the matter is how many masters of our professions we really have out there? Not that many I don’t think. Once masters become common then it will be easy to judge. I myself have never fought another master carbine or rifleman to my knowledge. Who am I to judge at all?
Who are you to?
I think it's fair for us as carbineers to take a look at pistol and compare it to our class. Mostly because pistoleers get the area knockdown, due to a bug in disarming shot 2,that we're supposed to have.
Oddly enough, the pistoleer correspondents issues all seem to be along the lines of "We're not as strong as bounty hunters".
There is a distinct difference between being unique and being balanced. Are the classes unique? Yes Are they balanced? No.
Not balancing professions is the best way to insure that everyone plays as the same profession. If pistoleers are better in combat, everyones gonna be a pistoleer, etc. Look at the ration in game right now. For every 10 pistol users, you might see 1 carbine user and theres a reason for that.
The key is balance based on work. Pistoleers and carbineers require the same amount of work thus they should be balanced but be unique(thus having different strengths and weaknesses). If one profession is better suited to surviving combat overall than another, its not balanced with other classes. This is after you take into account the peron playing the profession knows how to use it effectively in combat.
As far as BH, they should be better in combat than a pure pistoleer or carbineer as they have used up much more skill points than a carbineer or pistoleer.
"As far as BH, they should be better in combat than a pure pistoleer or carbineer as they have used up much more skill points than a carbineer or pistoleer."
They should why? Have the Devs stated this? I see players, mostly bounty hunter players, say this all the time.
I believe a bounty hunter should be flexible. Your targets are in the wilderness so you need wilderness skills and hence you have Scouting skills. You need to kill your target so you need combat skills. Why should required Scouting skills make you a better fighter? The points spent to become a bounty hunter would seem to make him a well-rounded character specializing in nothing particular. Seems to me a bounty hunter should be a jack of all trades as opposed to an uber fighter.
As a matter of fact, you can be a Master Scout (which unless you never leave the city, these skills are very useful), Master Marksman, Bounty Hunter and the entire pistol/carbine tree and still leave you with enough points to COMPLETELY MASTER ANOTHER CLASS!!!! Master Squad Leader, Master Ranger, Master Creature Handler, Master Pistoleer, Master Rifleman, Master Carbineer, etc. I am sorry, but considering the firepower available to a bounty hunter, they are actually one of the most flexible classes there is, and that is the bigproblem.
The big problem is too many people watch the movies and think because they have picked the Bounty Hunter class they should be as powerful as Boba/Jango Fett when in reality those characters are one of kind "supervillians." I think you should be as powerful as Greedo, you know the Rodian that was killed by Han Solo. Hence, I have hit the nail on the head. You believe you should be all powerful just because you have selected a certain class and everyone else in the games thinks you should be an average ordinary nameless person in the Star Wars universe...just like everyone else is.
Marksman/Scout/Carbineer
There you go, exactly as many skill points as BH, but far less capable in combat. Considering that supposedly this person has *specialized* in one weapon, rather than dabbled in three, with his elite profession.... Why is this the case?
I don't think they are balanced, nor are they supposed to be, thus is why there are professions (multiple choices of what to learn and user-defineable)and not classes (that are one-sided EQ/DAOC style)
Each class has it's strengths and weaknesses, and the main problem is that people are too lazy to search for a weakness and immediately start to attacking (insert better class)'s strengths to knock them down.
I for one am tired of defending Bounty Hunters as a class that I worked **edit** hard for just to get novice and not have enough skill points for anything else, but devoted Bounty Huntyism(lol nice word:biggrin
But also commend you guys and Rifleman because on your main page, you do not have a "nerf bounty hunter thread" like the pistoleers often spam heh......
It is very importanat that classes are balanced to keep all the ub3r13375 from being only one class. If any one class is far and away the best it creates a great deal of unbalance and pissed off players. everyclass needs to be viable, but not neccesarily the best in a given situation, ie, everyclass should get soe sort of area effect attack, so they can klill off small groups of weak mobs, but one class should be the best/get the most AOE attacks. One classs shoudl be great at killing one creatue at a time, but all classes should be able to do it well.
"It is very importanat that classes are balanced to keep all the ub3r13375 from being only one class. If any one class is far and away the best it creates a great deal of unbalance and pissed off players. everyclass needs to be viable, but not neccesarily the best in a given situation, ie, everyclass should get soe sort of area effect attack, so they can klill off small groups of weak mobs, but one class should be the best/get the most AOE attacks. One classs shoudl be great at killing one creatue at a time, but all classes should be able to do it well"
Except there are no classes in SWG, only professions so your entire statement doesn't even apply to this game. It has been said over and over, this is NOT a class based game, this is NOT the same as every other MMORPG with classes you have to pick.
EVERY profession takes less than 250 skill points. The system in this game is so good, and so customizable that people are too lazy to discover what works best for them and what they want.
BH is the easy, lazy way to dump all your points in one profession and be close to done, and looked to as the end all of all combat.There are hundreds of combinations of skills that cost LESS skill points than a BH that are better in every aspect of the game,
There's a big difference between having to spend points to skills that are totally useless for you and having a choice to take something different. BHs dont have that choice, yet they still are basically a profession specialized in combat.. And in the end, skill points SHOULD be the thing that makes professions balanced, exactly for the reason sehkmah said. (in the case of someone taking purely combat related skills,but obviously some skills work better with eachother so there's also that to factor)
A master BH really should be better overall in combat than a master carbineer/pistoleer/rifleman (supposing they dont have anything else combat related), but with the current BH skill trees you cant do that without either stepping on the toes of pistoleers or carbineers by making the BH better at the weapon the carbineer/pistoleer is specialized in, or optionally just making the lightning cannon so much better than those 2.. which would kinda solve the problem, but would still be kind of lame since it'd make the pistol/carbine trees of the BH pretty much useless. They'd need some other combat related skills to properly "fix" that ..
Novamarine:
Actually yes the devs stated this, thank you for doing your homework. The announced before launch that a BH would be the strongest pvp player besides jedi.
Does it make sense? Hell yes it does, a master BH has 33 points left over, thats it, no other real choices for them except pure combat with those skills. Carbineers and pistoleers have tons of other options.
Also, someone who choose to master marksman/carbineer/scout is doing so out of their own choice, a BH doesnt have that option...not to mention its another 77 skill points to master.
Lets say you dabble in one tree in BH, thats 174 points spent. No medic skills, No entertainer skills, no artisan skills included. So you have used about 3/4 of your points.
Lets say you dabble in one tree of carbineer, thats 49 points. No Medic skills, etc, included yet.
With the BH Path above, you are left with 76 skill points, not even enough to master another starting class.
You can go CH (which is not great after nerf), You Can Go Ranger (If you want to), You can Go Carbineer/Pistoleer, Yes You can master these classes as well, but if you master carbineer or pistoleer with the BH tree above, you are left with 12 skill points, not even enough to get a novice medic.
Sure a BH like this is uber powerful, but they aint great if they cant replenish what they shoot out. A couple of hits or a bleed and bye bye. Unless you got some uber 2nd account thtas like a master healer like my friend has.
But for the others that dont have a little girl right by them healing them all to oblivion, you need medic skills.
With The Carbineer Tree Above. You are Left with 201 points, which is about (just a bit less) triple of what the BH tree has above.
Lets say you master Carbineer, you have spent 92 points. 158 Points left, Thats alot of points. Enough to master another Starting Class and one of its elite professions. And still have 18 points left, enough to dabble in 3 other elite professions, or dabble in a new starting class, or dabble into one elite.
Arguement "We spend 4x the exp mastering Carbineer then you guys spent mastering a line of BH"
yes, Thats true, but here it is:
Exp is only a matter of time, anyone can gain a large amount of exp in just a matter of time. I gained 800,000 in 8 hours. It just takes time.
Points, Points never change (unless they implement something later on) You never get more points, your points max never changes, its always the same, and so we spent more on trying to even get into this class then any other class.
Commando is the class that comes close to ours in terms of how much exp it takes to get to novice.
Novice Commando spent 112 points.
Novice BH Spent 160 points.
Novice Carbineer spent 35 points.
Master Carbineer Spent 92 points = 158 points left.
Master BH spent 217 points = 33 points left.
Arguement "But getting to Novice BH is much easier then it makes out to be."
Kind of not though.
First we need to buy a lot of guns to master, that cost money, money means time we need to spend to hit the destroy missions, which we all know is a massive pain now.
And having to Master all those weapon types are a pain.
Then we need to skin hides, easy solo, a pain in a group with others "ninja Skinning" your stuff.
Wilderness Exp, The most boring exp of them all, Unless your a cheater who uses a macro.(Me, i had to live the horror of days of nothing but sitting in a camp.) This is a very paintful way of exp. (Now if your an entertainer that uses a macro, I have nothing against that, ive seen how that is, its like camping exp 20x over. GAWWWWWW)
Trapping exp: Ill admit this is semi-hard, not too hard if you find the animals that give the good amount.
Arguement "BH knockdown is overpowered"
At the moment it is, but i dont see why it should be given more HAM cost, i know it can be spammed badly, but i rather it just have a 8 second delay timer on it.
Note this:
ALL DEFENSE VALUES ARE BROKEN. THAT KNOCKDOWN +15 DEFENSE, DOES NOTHING AT THE MOMENT, IT WILL GET FIXED.
CARBINEER IS GETTING REVAMPED, DONT WORRY. YOU GUYS GET A KNOCKDOWN TOO, AN AREA ONE!!!!
Sorry for the caps, but it had to be done.
Arguement "BH Carbine Tree gets better bonuses then Carbineer"
Oh yeah by like +5 points, and our skills are mainly knockdowns, which is getting nerfed.........
but carbineer, you got scatter shot 2, hits all pools ( I use this myself in PVP, its almost instant death. One shot is enough to hurt a person badly.)
BURST SHOT 2 IS BROKEN, IT WILL GET FIXED.
Crippling Shot is similar to Stopping shot, its a really powerful one pool random attack, Sure it attacks a random pool, but when you hit it at 1500 +, it dosent matter.
Half of Carbineer skills are BROKEN, wait for them to get fixed.
Also you guys get Defense Bonuses, we dont.
Arguement "BH carbine 4 can own a master carbineer"
This has many varibles to it, later on knockdown nerf, armor, weapon speeds, etc. It all can vary.
Well i have tried to bring all the issues i can to you.
I am Lady Belldandy Of Gorath, level 3 Carbine BH, Novice Medic, and Master Carbineer.
Yes im stating this from both a carbineer and a BH view, for I am both.
It is because you can master Carbineer for only using 92 points.
Lets say you dabble in one tree in BH, thats 174 points spent. No medic skills, No entertainer skills, no artisan skills included. So you have used about 3/4 of your points.
Lets say you dabble in one tree of carbineer, thats 49 points. No Medic skills, etc, included yet.
With the BH Path above, you are left with 76 skill points, not even enough to master another starting class. You can go CH (which is not great after nerf), You Can Go Ranger (If you want to), You can Go Carbineer/Pistoleer, Yes You can master these classes as well, but if you master carbineer or pistoleer with the BH tree above, you are left with 12 skill points, not even enough to get a novice medic.
Sure a BH like this is uber powerful, but they aint great if they cant replenish what they shoot out. A couple of hits or a bleed and bye bye. Unless you got some uber 2nd account thtas like a master healer like my friend has.
But for the others that dont have a little girl right by them healing them all to oblivion, you need medic skills.
With The Carbineer Tree Above. You are Left with 201 points, which is about (just a bit less) triple of what the BH tree has above.
Lets say you master Carbineer, you have spent 92 points. 158 Points left, Thats alot of points. Enough to master another Starting Class and one of its elite professions. And still have 18 points left, enough to dabble in 3 other elite professions, or dabble in a new starting class, or dabble into one elite.
Arguement "We spend 4x the exp mastering Carbineer then you guys spent mastering a line of BH" yes, Thats true,
but here it is:
Exp is only a matter of time, anyone can gain a large amount of exp in just a matter of time. I gained 800,000 in 8 hours. It just takes time.
Points, Points never change (unless they implement something later on) You never get more points, your points max never changes, its always the same, and so we spent more on trying to even get into this class then any other class.
Commando is the class that comes close to ours in terms of how much exp it takes to get to novice.
Novice Commando spent 112 points.
Novice BH Spent 160 points.
Novice Carbineer spent 35 points.
Master Carbineer Spent 92 points = 158 points left.
Master BH spent 217 points = 33 points left.
Arguement "But getting to Novice BH is much easier then it makes out to be."
Kind of not though.
First we need to buy a lot of guns to master, that cost money, money means time we need to spend to hit the destroy missions, which we all know is a massive pain now.
And having to Master all those weapon types are a pain. T
hen we need to skin hides, easy solo, a pain in a group with others "ninja Skinning" your stuff.
Wilderness Exp, The most boring exp of them all, Unless your a cheater who uses a macro.(Me, i had to live the horror of days of nothing but sitting in a camp.) This is a very paintful way of exp. (Now if your an entertainer that uses a macro, I have nothing against that, ive seen how that is, its like camping exp 20x over. GAWWWWWW)
Trapping exp: Ill admit this is semi-hard, not too hard if you find the animals that give the good amount.
Arguement "BH knockdown is overpowered" At the moment it is, but i dont see why it should be given more HAM cost, i know it can be spammed badly, but i rather it just have a 8 second delay timer on it.
Note this:
ALL DEFENSE VALUES ARE BROKEN. THAT KNOCKDOWN +15 DEFENSE, DOES NOTHING AT THE MOMENT, IT WILL GET FIXED.
CARBINEER IS GETTING REVAMPED, DONT WORRY. YOU GUYS GET A KNOCKDOWN TOO, AN AREA ONE!!!!
Sorry for the caps, but it had to be done.
Arguement "BH Carbine Tree gets better bonuses then Carbineer" Oh yeah by like +5 points in speed, and our skills are mainly knockdowns, which is getting nerfed.........
but carbineer, you got scatter shot 2, hits all pools ( I use this myself in PVP, its almost instant death. One shot is enough to hurt a person badly.)
BURST SHOT 2 IS BROKEN, IT WILL GET FIXED.
Crippling Shot is similar to Stopping shot, its a really powerful one pool random attack, Sure it attacks a random pool, but when you hit it at 1500 +, it dosent matter.
Half of Carbineer skills are BROKEN, wait for them to get fixed. Also you guys get Defense Bonuses, we dont as BH, we must join carbineer/pistoleer to gain them, spending even more points.
Arguement "BH carbine 4 can own a master carbineer"
This has many varibles to it, later on knockdown nerf, armor, weapon speeds, etc. It all can vary. Well i have tried to bring all the issues i can to you.
I am Lady Belldandy Of Gorath, level 3 Carbine BH, Novice Medic, and Master Carbineer. Yes im stating this from both a carbineer and a BH view, for I am both.