Carbineer Archive

Thread: Test Results: What if the damage type isn't listed?

EisMan_Buckeye
Mon Jun 14, 2004 11:11 pm
#1

I ran some tests tonight on armor piercing in PvE.


The first test was done on Mokks on Dantooine, which have light armor, 60% resists to acid, and are vulnerable to heat. The second test was done on craggy bolmas on Dathomir, which have light armor, and the only listed resistances were kinetic and energy, with vulnerabilites to stun and cold (no other damage type was listed).


Testing involved using a DXR6 and an EE3on each of the test subjects, firing crippling shot at them, and paying attention to both the over head actual damage as well as the damage logged in the combat log (the before armor damage). I chose crippling shot as it fired very slowly with my chosen weapons due to not having any SAs on me (thanks TA for that tip). The slow firing rate gave me time to read the over head numbers and the log to compare numbers. At first, I had trouble seeing the overhead numbers, as the body parts hit where covering them up, butI solved that by zooming into 1st person view. That let me read the over head numbers pretty easily. Results are as follows...


  • Against the Mokks, the over head damage was equal to the log damage with the EE3.

  • Against the Mokks, the over head damage was equal to 40% of the log damage with the DXR6.

  • Against the craggy bolmas, the overhead damage was equal to 50% of the log damage with the EE3 (AP0 vs AR1).

  • Against the craggy bolmas, the over head damage was equal to the log damage with the DXR6 (AP1 vs AR1).


Due to these results, I have madethese final conclusions about PvE armor piercing calculations...



  • A damage type listed as a vulnerablity will allow a weapon with that damage type to completely ignore armor values, even if it has lower AP that the target's AR.

  • If a damage type is not listed on the armor, the AP vs AR caclulations apply (AP1 vs AR1, etc.), but there is no further reduction (such as if there was a resistance).


There is one last scenario I wanted to test, but didn't have the time... What happens when a target has lower AR than your AP level, but is vulnerable to your damage type? For example: target has AR0, and is vulnerable to acid. What happen when I use a DXR6 on them? Straight through 1:1 ratio damage, or do I get the 1.25 multiplier for having AP1 vs AR0?


Stay tuned kids... same carbineer time... same carbineer channel.




__________________________________________
EisMan Buckeye [COG]
Mercenaries do it for money
[Master of Carbines] [Retired Mercenary]
__________________________________________


EisMan_Buckeye
Mon Jun 14, 2004 11:29 pm
#2






EisMan_Buckeye wrote:

There is one last scenario I wanted to test, but didn't have the time... What happens when a target has lower AR than your AP level, but is vulnerable to your damage type? For example: target has AR0, and is vulnerable to acid. What happen when I use a DXR6 on them? Straight through 1:1 ratio damage, or do I get the 1.25 multiplier for having AP1 vs AR0?


Stay tuned kids... same carbineer time... same carbineer channel.







The Gods are smiling at me... right after I posted this, I logged back in to the game and low and behold.... a shear mite soldier... AR0, vulnerable to acid. My DXR6 did not get the 1.25 damage multiplier for having AP1 vs AR0, the ratio of log damage to overhead damage was 1:1.


On a side note, THAT is the complaint the Jedi have... thier AP2 lightsabers are being negated because EVERYTHING is vulnerable to LS damage, meaning they can NEVER get the multiplier for AP2 vs AR0 or AR1. Seems it is better if you have an AP2 weapon to target something that has AR1 with 1% - 20% resistance to your damage type than something that is AR1 and vulnerable to your damage type.



__________________________________________
EisMan Buckeye [COG]
Mercenaries do it for money
[Master of Carbines] [Retired Mercenary]
__________________________________________


TAfirehawk
Tue Jun 15, 2004 4:51 am
#3






EisMan_Buckeye wrote:


The Gods are smiling at me... right after I posted this, I logged back in to the game and low and behold.... a shear mite soldier... AR0, vulnerable to acid. My DXR6 did not get the 1.25 damage multiplier for having AP1 vs AR0, the ratio of log damage to overhead damage was 1:1.


On a side note, THAT is the complaint the Jedi have... thier AP2 lightsabers are being negated because EVERYTHING is vulnerable to LS damage, meaning they can NEVER get the multiplier for AP2 vs AR0 or AR1. Seems it is better if you have an AP2 weapon to target something that has AR1 with 1% - 20% resistance to your damage type than something that is AR1 and vulnerable to your damage type.






This is what I heard as well, not what you reported in the other thread


This all matches with what the Devs have told us.....amazing they got something "right".





Iebas Feania
Former Correspondent of the Former Profession, CARBINEER

novamarine
Tue Jun 15, 2004 6:44 am
#4


So basically, if the damage type is not listed, the target is AR X 0%. If they have light armor, then they are AR 1 0%.


Nice work.
EisMan_Buckeye
Tue Jun 15, 2004 8:42 am
#5






TAfirehawk wrote:


This is what I heard as well, not what you reported in the other thread


This all matches with what the Devs have told us.....amazing they got something "right".





Yeah, my thoughts were clouded and confused in the other thread lol. I had all that talk about the AP2 weapons (lightsabers in particular) getting hosed if they were used against a target that is vulnerable to their damage type. I made the wrong assumption that since AP2 LSs vs AR1 w/ LS vulnerability was only getting a 1:1 damage ration, that AP0 EE3 vs AR1 w/ heat vulnerability would only get a 1:2 ratio. I was wrong, and can stand up and admit it. I'm just glad we all know how it really works now. For me, I allways prefer to find out for myself rather than have someone (devs in particualr) tell me how it works.




__________________________________________
EisMan Buckeye [COG]
Mercenaries do it for money
[Master of Carbines] [Retired Mercenary]
__________________________________________


novamarine
Tue Jun 15, 2004 9:01 am
#6








EisMan_Buckeye wrote:



On a side note, THAT is the complaint the Jedi have... thier AP2 lightsabers are being negated because EVERYTHING is vulnerable to LS damage, meaning they can NEVER get the multiplier for AP2 vs AR0 or AR1. Seems it is better if you have an AP2 weapon to target something that has AR1 with 1% - 20% resistance to your damage type than something that is AR1 and vulnerable to your damage type.






It certainly is a wierd system. I think they might had come up with a better system if they had thought it out more. When you consider that an energy vulnerable target takes less damage from an AP 2 laser carbine than a target with 10% energy resist you realize this system really doesn't make sense.


This actually brings up one of my concerns over the combat rebalance. I suspect armor protection is coming down and coming down a lot. However, because of the oddities in the AR/AP system, you can create armors that will cause you more damage than protection. For instance, any armor that is less than 25% energy resist will result in extra damage from laser carbines. If you were being hit by a laser carbine and had on armor with 20% energy resist, the best thing you could do would be to take your armor off. This was exactly the case in the early game when armor stunk. Everyone PvPed naked because you took more damage when you wore armor.


This is going to be interesting to see how this shakes out...



jfang
Tue Jun 15, 2004 10:26 am
#7



Wouldn't running around in armor make you AR0, no vulnerabilities, so you take full damage plus multipliers? I think you always want armor to no armor, as then you havethe higher AR1. So against a laser carbine,10% energy resist composite (AP2 vs AR1, 10% resist) would be better than no armor (AP2 vs AR0, 0% resist). Or is armorless considered vulnerable to everything (meaning the AP2 would disappear)?


I think the glitch you are refering to is that an AR1 10%energy resistresist composite would be worse than a energy vulnerablebone armor (assuming bone is energy vulnerable), because it would be AP2-AR1 10% resist as compared to written damage (vulnerable).



Thanks for the information, EisMan_Buckeye. Everybody keeps referring to AP-AR in oblique terms I never quite understood, but your demonstration was much clearer (and more credible).
TAfirehawk
Tue Jun 15, 2004 10:34 am
#8

Although depending on the code, it is easy to fix. Everything needs to act like AP0 even the vulnerable ones.


But at that point there would be no difference between listed as vulnerable and not listed at all. But I am not sure how the vulnerable SHOULD be vs. a damage type unlisted....





Iebas Feania
Former Correspondent of the Former Profession, CARBINEER

jfang
Tue Jun 15, 2004 10:45 am
#9


By the way I read the armor sheet, unlisted should be treated as base the base AR of the creature. The way the armor sheet should parse in my opinion is:


1) The creature has medium armor

2) In addition to medium armor, it has a special protection of 25% for kinetic (but "effectiveness" and "special protection" are basically the same for NPCs because each resistance can be a different percentage)

3) In addition to medium armor, it hasextra resistanceto energy and cold for 35%

4) Despite medium armor, the creature has a vulnerability to acid damage so derives no defensive benefit


So, in this case,since stun was not listed, conditions 2, 3, and 4 do not apply, and you are left with medium armor. This is just mypersonal opinion though.
novamarine
Tue Jun 15, 2004 10:57 am
#10


No armor acts like vulnerable.
jfang
Tue Jun 15, 2004 11:11 am
#11


Understood. On the up side, because the lightsaber damage/vulnerability issue, this affects jedi, so we can expect this issue to resolved sooner rather than later...


Hmm, wasthat posttoo cynical?
TAfirehawk
Wed Jun 16, 2004 11:41 am
#12






novamarine wrote:


No armor acts like vulnerable.







And there in lies the problem.....vulnerable ignores the AP of the weapon and it shouldn't. Vulnerable should just reduce all AR's to AR0 and the unlisted ones keep the AR, as previously stated.





Iebas Feania
Former Correspondent of the Former Profession, CARBINEER

EisMan_Buckeye
Wed Jun 16, 2004 5:39 pm
#13






TAfirehawk wrote:





novamarine wrote:


No armor acts like vulnerable.







And there in lies the problem.....vulnerable ignores the AP of the weapon and it shouldn't. Vulnerable should just reduce all AR's to AR0 and the unlisted ones keep the AR, as previously stated.








Bingo. That's kinda what I had in mind when I went on about the EE3 not allways being the best bet, but what I failed to see is that a vulnerability actaully AIDSa weapon that has lower AP than the target's AR, and it HURTS a weapon who's AP is greater than the target's AR.



__________________________________________
EisMan Buckeye [COG]
Mercenaries do it for money
[Master of Carbines] [Retired Mercenary]
__________________________________________


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