Carbineer Archive
Thread: Combat Rebalance Speed changes?
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meyer1215
Mon Jun 14, 2004 4:31 pm
#1
Hello all,
I was catching up on information about the combat rebalance and I just saw a repost of zelos1 about some info he got the CR at fan fest from the dev Dave WHite.
Zelos1 wrote:
*** Some of this may not be news, I'm not familiar with what information is not already available. This information largely comes from Dave White, one of the main devs on the combat system ***
"You will not ever be able to kill yourself"
Here's why: There will now be ability point pools available for Health Action and Mind. These pools are constrained by the maximum size of the corresponding HAM pool (including wounds/buffs) but do not take damage from incoming attacks.Instead, points are only drainable from these pools through the use of specials.
Ability point pools will drain much faster (i.e. costs of specials increased) but will regen much faster as well. The same secondary stats will affect ability pool drain/regen as affect the HAM drain/regen. Ability point pools can not be used to incap/kill a player.
"Nobody will attack specific pools."
Further explanation revealed this is sort of true. Professions will still keep torso/health, leg/action and head/mind shots. However, these shots have a substantially decreased accuracy modifier and are not guaranteed to hit the pool targetted, though they are likely to. All three pools will be healable, though he specifically noted that this might NOT be through stimpacks by a Medic. For those who would argue that this is status quo due to Combat Medic healing, the words he used at one point were "we need to make mind damage healable" - which presumably means he doesn't consider it effectively healable now.
1) "Slow weapons will be slow even when used by masters, just not as slow as when used by novices."
All weapon speed calaculations are being redone. In fact, the existing speed formulas are being tossed out entirely.
2) Not all players will move at the same speed. An example given was if someone has a rifle equipped that "he's gonna have to put it away to move at full speed".
3) Equipping and unequippingweapons and armorwill now enter the combat queue so that they do not happen instantaneously. The possibility of additional delay on these actions was mentioned but details were not given.
One special mentioned was the ability to stand after a knockdown at a significant ability point cost. Another was a melee rifelman tactic. It is unclear whether these are examples of what will be in the system or just what MIGHT be in the system.
When I first started SWG, I originally picked carbine, because I assumed that it would be medium speed with medium damage.This gives me hope for carbine. Speed being completely redone. Possilbe healing for all pools, The last sentence also gives good news, standing up after knockdown costing ablitiy points. Only thing is, it is still quite a while away.
Rorrimot
TAfirehawk
Mon Jun 14, 2004 9:18 pm
#2
And being that far away, NOBODY, not even the Devs, knows what the finished Combat Balance will look like.....
Rumors, rumors, rumors.....even if from the Devs....
meyer1215
Mon Jun 14, 2004 9:54 pm
#3
TAfirehawk wrote:
And being that far away, NOBODY, not even the Devs, knows what the finished Combat Balance will look like.....
Rumors, rumors, rumors.....even if from the Devs....
True, but it does gives some indication that they might plan to do something about the speed. Now if only someone can find out if they are also looking at armor piercing, then I would be content. (not really
, but it would be nice to know) It gets to me that they plan to "rebalance" combat, when I'm not sure they know how AP is currently working. (Saying there is no extra damage done [after checking the code] and player logs showing extra damage [Might not be exactly right, but they show extra damage.].
Rorrimot
jfang
Tue Jun 15, 2004 7:45 am
#4
"Professions will still keep torso/health, leg/action and head/mind shots. However, these shots have a substantially decreased accuracy modifier and are not guaranteed to hit the pool targeted, though they are likely to."
Is anybody else concerned about this? If there is reduced accuracy an "no benefit" (read: HAMcost changes)for targeting any HAM pool, why would somebody usea targeted shot? As it stands now, a pistoleer can do more health damage using stopping shot or fan shot than with body shot 2 (I think). Carbineers will keep legshooting for the stun, butbody shot and especially head shot (in general fighting hitting the head is rare, so in parties people focus on health in PvE) will possibly become broken specials.
But then again, these are all rumors, and there are many other changes, so I'm probably overreacting...
HashiEno
Tue Jun 15, 2004 8:04 am
#5
reading this stuff makes me cringe. the dev talk that is. with carbines being considered "in the middle" on speed and accuracy and range, it seems the devs work to actively define pistoleer and rifleman, leaving the "middle" to sort itself out. consequently, the "middle" seems poorly conceived... more of a byproduct of the definitions of pistoleer and rifleman as the "high" and "low" point. in my opinion, the fastest-slowest-middle equation hurts carbineer at every step of the process. we should be something damnit, not just the middle.
jfang
Tue Jun 15, 2004 8:17 am
#6
I really don't see carbineers as being the "middle" profession. As I view it there are three primary ranged combat classes:
Pistols: high defenses (dodge being the "best" of the three, as you avoid all damage) and high adaptability to take advantage of opponents weaknesses (6 damage types), but overall weak
Rifle: high offensive power (only weapons with AP3) used to force you way through opponents, but lower defenses (block only partially blocks damage), and in theory slow
Carbines: Not exceptionally high offense or defense, but the people who do special attacks and fight outside of a pure attack-defense paradigm. The wild cards of combat
So basically you have your attackers, your defenders, and your "others". I see this being reflected in melee as well, with fencers being pistols (defense), swordsmen being rifles (high damage), and pikemen being carbines ("others", with their area knockdowns and LVAs) Where Teras Kasi fit is another conversation all together...
Sivol
Tue Jun 15, 2004 11:13 am
#7
Personally, I would rather keep our speed the same and get more DEFENSES! I willing to bet its either going to be more speed or more defenses, but not both. My vote is for defenses. If we somehow manage to get both, well thats just kickass!
Datchery
Tue Jun 15, 2004 6:57 pm
#8
if everything was working counterattack would be the best, since it functions as a dodge AND a free hit. Pretty snazzy neh?
Bermag
Wed Jun 16, 2004 3:31 am
#9
As I see it Carbineer is the only profession that works "correct" for speed. The problem is the speed formula which will let you fire any weapon at speed cap if you get 100 speed skill (which is pretty easy for Rifleman and not possible for Carbineer w/o BH).
Hard to tell what the combat revamp will do but reading between the lines it looks like the goal is to make a lot more things matter again. Todays buffs, armour and game mechanics have caused:
- Tactics being useless. Just spam your specials. Does not matter if target is in PB range or not. Armour deals with damage, high regen get back HAM and accuracy at master lelvel is high enough to hit at PB anyway.
- Speed on weapons (except Carbines/FT/LLC) is if no importance (speed formula causing this)
- Food buffs that buff secondary stats are useless since doctor buffs get you well above the point you need them buffed (except for mind of course)
- HAM cost is also unimportant
I think the game will be more fun with "nerfed" buffs and armour. But of course mobs need to be rebalanced as well (no more Ap3/90% resist/300k HAM) or it will just be a lot more boring.
I look forward to the combat revamp even if I am kind of worried they do not get it right. My only complain is the weapon/armour switch delay. I guess the reason for weapon delay switch is that they have introduced different running speed to avoid kiting. But it take away a tactical element, switch weapon depending on situation (start with high dam weapon for bleed, then switch to normal long range weapon and finally use a weapon that is good at short ranges). Also I have an alt char whicch is rifleman/fencer. So I would start with rifle then switch to melee when target comes in melee range.
I think that you should be able to switch from one wepaon of one type to another without any penalties (from one rifle to another). Also if you are standing still I think you should be able to switch weapon without any delay but maybe not been able to move for a couple of seconds.
jfang
Wed Jun 16, 2004 6:35 am
#10
Have the weapon switch delays been confirmed as a feature, and not a bug?
I know the armor switching delay is intentional (which in my opinion is a good thing, as it makes encumberance more important because you can't throw off armor just to heal then re-equip, and I think it is silly how a dizzy-KD person can throw on a full set of heavy composite armor faster than I can fire a single shot...). However, have the devs commented on the weapons switching delay?
novamarine
Wed Jun 16, 2004 8:37 am
#11
jfang wrote:
Have the weapon switch delays been confirmed as a feature, and not a bug?
I know the armor switching delay is intentional (which in my opinion is a good thing, as it makes encumberance more important because you can't throw off armor just to heal then re-equip, and I think it is silly how a dizzy-KD person can throw on a full set of heavy composite armor faster than I can fire a single shot...). However, have the devs commented on the weapons switching delay?
Yes the delays are onTC and there is substantial debate ongoing. This is a huge nerf to classes that switch weapons like Bounty Hunters. Tanks (BH correspondant)is fighting the good fight against this delay. I am arguing against it because I know many carbineers like to apply states with a fast weapon and then switch to a higher damage weapon. I am hoping this is pulled.
The armor switch is apparently related to Jedi so that a jedi cannot use a macro to remove armor, use a force power and then put the armor back on again. I definately agree that it is needed in this case. I just worry that players will now not even bother to buy clothing and just walk around in armor. If you wear armor 100% of the time, there is no delay....
TAfirehawk
Wed Jun 16, 2004 8:40 am
#12
Do people EVER take off their armor? I know I never take mine off. Even without buffs the 85% Comp and Novice Medic make me pretty strong....oh yeah Brandy and Canape required 
jfang
Wed Jun 16, 2004 8:55 am
#13
So Nova, just to confirm, on TC the devs have stated (in patch notes, unofficial channels, etc.) that the weapon delay is intentional. Players are complaining and trying to get it changed, but currently officially on TC the weapon delay is not a bug?
To answer your question, TAfirehawk, I'm thinking way back several months ago when people did not have access to2000+ buffs (or even buffs at all), and for those few people who currentlydon't fight with 2500 quickness and stamina. Yes, people would and do take off armor after a battle to heal, then pop it back on after they are done, thus bypassing part of the encumberance of the armor (the reduced stamina and constitution).
Assuming armor and buffs are balanced in the combat revamp (read: encumberance really does slow a person down), it is not hard to imagine some clever people taking up this practice again. (In an extreme case, bypassing encumberance by doing things like doctors and combat medicstaking off their helmet, using a medicine, and re-equipping it, which some people actually do do right now.)
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