Carbineer Archive
Thread: I am sick and tired of listening to sole Carbineers cry about BH Carbine.
You all want nerfs on BH Carbine right? Well let me compile all the things about it I have said in the past few days I have said about this.
**WARNING:**
THIS IS A LONG POST. IF YOU ARE TO RESPOND, PLEASE READ AT LEAST SOME OF THIS POST.
Part I:
Ok lets put it this way:
Carbineer:
Has more moves and skill mods. It also gets defense mods. You all should know about Carbineer so I wont go into any detail here.
Bounty Hunter Carbine: (Letme tell you nerf screamers, ITS ALREADY NERFED)
Note: No defense mods and Carbineer has more Skill Mods. It also has Crippling Shot which is much better than any BH attack there is.
Overview:
Bounty Carbine I:
Skill Mods: 10 Speed 10 Accuracy
Skills Granted: Underhand Shot: Underhand shot is a nerfed knockdown attack that does little to no damage and misses 9/10 times. Useless shot.
Bounty Carbine II:
Skill Mods: 10 Speed 10 Accuracy
Skills Granted: None: A useless skill.
Bounty Carbine III:
Skill Mods: 20 Speed 20 Accuracy
Skills Granted: Fire Knockdown: Fire Knockdown isone of the most broken shots. The Fire doesn't work and it does almost no damage. It hits 1/10 times as well. Another useless shot.
Bounty Carbine IV:
Skill Mods: 10 Speed 10 Accuracy
Skills Granted: Confusion Shot: Confusion Shot is the only good move, and at that it doesn't work. It does a decent amount of damage with no knockdown. The thing people don't realize is that the Dizzy effect is broken. When you get dizzied by a Carbine, its from an attack in the Carbineer tree.
SO as you may see, BH Carbine is nerfed enough really and doesnt need to be nerfed again.
Part 2:
Ok sorry for the double post but also to answer your complaints...
1. Carbineer Should have better speed and accuracy than BH carbine. Its only fair given the fact that BH has LLC, pistol, and much better weapons to choose from.
--Carbineer might not have better speed and accuracy, but it has defense and other skill mods. ALSO, BH may have LLC, but it doesnt rival FT very much. The Scatter Pistol has 1/4 extra HAM and there IS no BH specific Carbine. That statement is totally worthless.
2. Fire Knockdown (is it torso shot..can't remember) is much more damaging than crippling. The only shot that has after affects is actionshot that a master marksman canhave as well.
--1. Yes it is Fire Knockdown. 2. It is NOT even close to as damaging as Crippling Shot. It actually does about less that 100 DMG unless your using an uber Carbine. Fire Knockdowns fire doesn't work either. Another statement that is worthless.
As you may see, your argument is worthless.
**Too add in a little more, you have to do MUCH MUCH more to be a Bounty Hunter than to be a Carbineer. It is only logical that you get some rewards for it.
Part 3:
"Ok.. I will apologize for posting this here and did not realize that Fire KD and specialty shots aren't the most accurate. I must have fought a Master Carbineer/BH carbine combo player that allowed him to stack the stats.
But, I do have to say that if BH is supposed to be the hardest and most powerful profession, why is it so **edit** easy to get. Everyone is running around as BH and its just ridiculous making the game not fun. I do realize the more skill points are required, but once you get novice BH, its not that hard. You just switch weapons and focus on one until you get to the top. There are no Combat XP tree's that you need to get which is by far the hardest compared to any marksman skills. Plus each level requires the same number of XP points like any other elite marksman profession.
If BH is deserving of their status the number of XP required to level up should be doubled. That will reduce the number of players becoming one. There needs to be a balance where the more powerful professions should be harder and longer to obtain. You may argue against this, but just look at Carbineer for example. 3 trees at 150k, 250k, 350k, and 450k xp points per level.... plus a fourth of combat xp. It has taken me forever to get that and only to be rewarded with +5 in accuracy and speed per level up. In my opinion BH is not harder to get than any other marksman profession. It just uses up more skill points which shouldn't be compensated for power. Experience should determine how good you are with a weapon and the fact that BH doesn't require more xp points than other professions just doesn't make sense. If you add up a Master carbineer's number of XP for one particular weapon, the benefits aren't relative to it. Yeah we may have more defensive skills, but its NOT that much more of an advantage over BH Carbine that only requires 1/4 of the XP. "
Ok, lets see you get Master Scout and Master Marksman and work your way up for the 40k Combat. I really want to see how fast you get Survival up which could easily take 2-3 weeks itself. MOST BH's have either played the game WELL or they have had it for a while...I dont want to hear crap about it not being hard to get. Not only that, a Master Carbineer could easily beat an Investigator. You have Cripple Shot and Burst Shot. What can beat that? Another issue: Skill Points. A Master Carbineer could do CH and many other things like Medic. A BH/Investigator has NO skill points left. Were pretty screwed. All your complaints arent very good.
Also let me add: Getting XP is harder for a BH than for a Carbineer. The Skill Mods make you get less XP for every creature. I know a Master Pistoleer that gets more XP for a Giant Peko Peko than an Expert BH. The Master Pistoleer gets about 200 XP and the Expert BH gets 1 XP. You get that XP decline at about Pistol?Carbine II. So XP IS harder to get for BH's making your other statement worthless.
Part 4:
Let me save the time and repost this. This was from a NERF BH CARBINE thread, and he has the problem you do.
(CarbineMaster (the nerf screamer) is in green, my responses are in red.)
Me: Ok ok. Time to go over your crap again, since you don't seem to get a point through your head once, or twice, or three times or...ok lets get it over with.
CarbineMaster:"...Regarding how fast I can get through scouting... hmmm its just time.. I've got everything in scout but trapping. I also have marksman. Its grinding like any other profession. I'm just saying once you get to Novice BH its easy rolling because no more combat xp to deal with. I'd like to see you go up Master Carbineer and say that its faster than BH. Beginner professions like master marksman / scout I can do in a weeks time now that I know the strategy. Carbine tree's are shared xp points so if you gain 120k xp you can only use it in one box and you have to do it again to get the others on the same level. So after the first level up I need to choose do I want speed or accuracy... in which it only gives me +5. BH you get both at +10 for doing the same amount of xp..."
Lets take this part first. "...So after the first level up I need to choose do I want speed or accuracy... in which it only gives me +5. BH you get both at +10 for doing the same amount of xp..." In total, Carbineers get more skill mods overall. If you can count, so theres no real argument there, and the current speed cap makes BH's and Carbineers end up at the cap with a fast enough weapon.
Now lets move to this section. "...Regarding how fast I can get through scouting... hmmm its just time.. I've got everything in scout but trapping. I also have marksman. Its grinding like any other profession. I'm just saying once you get to Novice BH its easy rolling because no more combat xp to deal with..." Now that you know an exploit, sure its fast. If you dont know an exploit your a loser with no life. Most people don't play 24/7 like you must. Master Marksman alone can even take a while if your a new character.
Next..."...I'm just saying once you get to Novice BH its easy rolling because no more combat xp to deal with. I'd like to see you go up Master Carbineer and say that its faster than BH. Beginner professions like master marksman / scout I can do in a weeks time now that I know the strategy. Carbine tree's are shared xp points so if you gain 120k xp you can only use it in one box and you have to do it again to get the others on the same level..." Really its not easy rolling. By the way, BH isn't supposed to be a sole profession. The point is to mix it with Carbineer/Pistoleer. That makes it even harder and skill points are lost about 10x faster. Sure no more Combat XP but you try getting Master BH with the Investigation tree. Yeah tell me when you do that in a #*(@ month. Thats our combat tree. Master Carbineer is easier in my opinion. With Carbineer you can get new shots, like Cripple. You only get KD's in BH. I rest that case.
Next? "...You also commented how BH's get less xp per kill. True if you use LLC or Scatter Pistols. You know why, because those guns are higher damage. Try killing a big animal with a carbine and see how long it takes. The LLC has higher damage so you are expected to kill more to gain xp. With carbine the damage is low and HAM penalties are so high that its difficult to kill anything..." Lets put it this way. BH HAS NO DAMAGE SPECIALS. WE ONLY GET KD'S SO WERE WORSE OFF. By the way, you get a major XP decrease with a Laser Carbine at BH Carbine 2. So your weapon theroy doesn't work. And your low damage thing is hurting yourself. Were using the same weapon fool.
Complaint #2894 from CarbineMaster: Regarding BH's don't have the option to pursue any other profession because of the used up skill points is a silly excuse. The whole skill point and combination of marksman and scout to become BH doesn't make sense. Your expertise in a particular weapon should be based on the amount of experience you have with it! Yes carbineers have the defensive edge, but if you look at speed and accuracy BH has the slight advantage. A level I BH carbine is better than a level 2 carbineer because just hopping one level gives you +10 in both accuracy and speed with 1/2 the XP points. If it were based on that Master carbineer should be 4x better than BH carbine. Ok. BH's can only take up one other Master. Thats it. They can Master Carbine and BH Carbine. NOTHING ELSE. They are left with 0 skill points. So its not a silly excuse. BH may have a slight advantage with speed, but Carbineers need Carbine IV. BH's need Master Marksman/Master Scout. When Carbineers have to do that, then you can talk to me about an unfair advantage. And something you may not know, a Master Carbineer is about 4x better than an Investigator.
Oh another? I love this game, but a lot of things don't make sense. I know you guys are defensive about your profession because you've pursued it, but it doesn't justify the bonus you get to similar weapons for having 1/4 the xp and non-comparable combat XP. Lets put it this way. Investigation is our Combat XP and is 20x harder so please never talk about that again. Also, we had to do more work than a Carbineer so using the weapon excuse is stupid. We had to do that same tree, giving us the qualifactaions, so it makes sense we can use Carbineer weapons...I mean really, are you that dumb?
And the last complaint. (Thank god) Devs should understand that BH's are already compensated by their special weapons, but also understand that they use the same carbines as anyone else and difference in very small to a master carbineer. Master Carbineers being slightly better than BH carbine is not enough. Devs just decided to make BH's baddass and give some arbitrary speed and accuracy to BH carbine. That's dumb logic! Let me say this. If your comparing an Investigator to a Master Carbineer, the Master Carbineer is going to win everytime. If your comparing a Master Carbineer to an Investigator/Carbineer, the BH is going to win. He did more work for his XP, doing the Master Scout and extra BH tree. And the same weapon comment HAS TO BE THE DUMBEST thing I have ever heard. WE GOT THE SAME QUALAFACTION and there is no BH Carbine, so what are we going to do, use our fingers!? You get more mods so dont tell me about the Speed and Accuracy of BH Carbine.
Part 5:
RE: Scouting XP:Now that you know an exploit, sure its fast. : I did the scouting xp grind. It's a time grind, but it requires no skill whatsoever. It's the easiest skill out there next to surveying and dance macroing. Sitting in a camp while you drink a coke and harvesting for xp after every kill is no exploit.
First off, Scouting XP is simple. I could hit CH in a day or 2 if I wasn't trying. I was reffering to the Survival part. If you haven't gotten Survival IV, it takes about a month to do for an average player. Not a normal person can sit around all day and play either. We have "lives". =O Whats a "life"? FIND OUT YOURSELF.
..you try getting Master BH with the Investigation tree. Don't know about that, but when I was ecstatic to be getting 800-1k combat xp by slowly bleeding kimas to deathmy equivalently levelled BH bud was running missions pulling in 5k xp/mission guaranteed, plus a nice payoff. I ain't saying it's easy, but at the same time combat xp comes in at one tenth of the rate of weapons xp. that 0004 carbineer box is a mother.
...Wow, let me know how your BH friend does it because...A BH mission takes an hour to do on average. Besides that marks are lost resulting in no XP. Not only that you only get 100 XP PER MISSIONS after the BH Carbine Nerf. (Which is already nerfed my I add.) I can get combat XP fast with my friends. I got a ton on Endor. Investigation is much harder and please don't say it is one tenth of the rate...Investigation will take you about 200-300+ Hours to do up to Investigation IV. (According to stats on the BH Boards). I got a friend who did the Pistoleer Combat tree in about 50 hours.
Ok. BH's can only take up one other Master. Thats it. : For any other character type to try and get max speed and accuracy with three weapon types would be impossible. it's a trade off. You get a jack of all trades character out of the BH line. Yeah it's tough that you have a combat/non combat hybrid character, but that's what it is. Scouting ain't killing and neither is investigating. I would sooner give my sympathies to a fencer or a rifleman who is a pure combat specialist that is poor at combat.
That paragraph makes almost no sense to my statement, but ok...No relevance what so ever to the topic either.
We had to do more work than a Carbineer: You have more prereqs but you did not do more work on learning to use the carbine than the carbineer. A guy with a PhD in Chemistry doesn't know more about Physics than a lowly Physics Bachelor just because hesatisfiedmore prerequisites. Time in = reward out. If you had a prereq in business it would be just about as good an argument for superior carbine skillsthan a carbine master as the scouting/rifle/pistol/investigation excuse is. And it's not like those scouting skills magically dissapear when you go BH. Those skill points aren't thrown away and they don't cost more than they do when a carbineer takes up scouting as I did. Say the argument out loud using literal terms: "I studied a lot of scouting so I Deserve to be faster and more accurate with a Carbine than a Carbine master!" Repeat until it sinks in.
Well, we should havea slight advantage in some things BECAUSE of our prerequisites. Although, you must realize that if you fight a BH Investigator correctly, you CAN BEAT HIM easy. (Not going into that because I don't want that secret let lose.) "...A guy with a PhD in Chemistry doesn't know more about Physics than a lowly Physics Bachelor just because hesatisfiedmore prerequisites..." That may be correct, but the reason the guy with the PhD has the PhD is because he is a smarter person and learned more before the time he became a Chemistry Professor or whatever. (Dont drop out of High School like Indicant did folks. ) You also seem to realize that XP is HARDER for a BH to get than a Carbineer. Our XP decline halves at BH Carbine 2, while yours doesnt start until Carbine Lvl 2 all the way across. The reason is because of the skill mods with our speed and accuracy. And lets say this in litteral terms: "I went to Middle School and went to McDonalds to work, compared to my friend who went to college and completed more classes and is a doctor now! Why is he making money faster than I am?" The case rests...
...the BH is going to win. He did more work for his XP, doing the Master Scout and extra BH tree.: What about a master marksman / master scout / master carbineer? Why does he have less speed and accuracy with a carbine than a bounty hunter? Because the system isn't balanced.
No, because he hadn't done BH for the extra skill mods. And if your so concerend, stop whining and do BH for them.
I have to go now, so I dont get to have the pleasure to ridicule his next paragraph.
I hope you took time to actually read this. I am tired of hearing all you nerf screamers. Doing it here at the Carbine board isn't doing anything. Doing it at the BH Board might get it noticed, but the BH's there are tougher opponents than I am. So good luck.
I did not read the whole post, but its because I have no problem with your basic argument. 
Carbineers as a whole do not want to nerf anybody. When we complain about other professions, its not because we want them nerfed. We just want to be able to compete - not have you gimped - not be made so powerful as to dominate - we just want to compete. That post to nerf BH carbine is a blight upon this forum, and I imagine many carbineers besides myself would like to see it just go away. If you look at the whole thread, you will notice that the majority of replies were of the 'shut the hell up and stop trying to nerf everybody' variety. All that post did for us was bring down all the trolls and BH defenders on our heads!
We are not your enemies! Trolls and nerf-cries are the enemies of everybody!
But pal, you really need to cut your caffeine intake back a little... that post was like watching my dog fetch things on ice.
FL
BH takes more time to reach, more skill points, but less time overall dedicated to the specific weapon. BH itself, as well as Carbineer, are fine. The only problem I have is the way the skill mods from each stack. Give BHs their own Carbine and don't let the two different trees stack [take the highest from each tree to determine the end value... ie. you have 60/30 speed/accuracy from Carbineer and 60/60 speed/accuracy from BH, so you have 60/60 overall... I don't know the validity of these numbers, but you get the idea].
Other than that, fix skills for both and it's all fine and dandy with me.
I endured through that whole thing, and saw some amazingly wild statements made. I'll save everyone the time of reading them again, but...
The best comparison I saw was: BH w/ Carbine 4 vs. Master Marksman/Master Scout/Master Carbineer (better modified: MM/MS/Carbineer 4-4-0-0).
You can really see that the speed/accuracy mods are a bit awry there. And yes, it does take much more xp to get LESS mods in Carbineer. The back-and-forth over the investigation vs. combat xp argument was enough to make me dizzy! Let's just throw em both out, and talk strictly speed and accuracy. BH wins for far less xp.
An easy fix? Yep. Make the Elite carbine worth a darn and call it good. Heck, make an elite, elite carbine with AP3 certified only on Master Carbineer! The problem with carbine in general is that the best weapon is received at Carbines 3 of the MARKSMAN TREE. Another possible fix? Reduce the action cost a bit so anyone weilding a Carbine (regardless a BH or Carbineer) can maybe wear armor and not kill themselves in two shots. I saw another recent post here posing the question: "carbine the perfect ch weapon?". Heh, the title should have been "CH necessary for a Carbine user since they can't wear armor and can't take a hit and have to use up powerups on weapons that have action reducers rather than damage increasers?" The answer would have been "Yep, or go crazy with REB/IMP for the faction "pets"!"
And please, look at the big picture folks. Don't focus on what's broken, or working improperly. IF all the specials were working as intended should be the comparison. Things change often enough around here to make posts relying on broken moves as the basis for argument obsolete in a day
Cheers!
an even easier fix...give bh's fewer speed/accuracy mods in the bounty carbine line, and then a massive boost at master.
i personally have NO problem getting my ass handed to me by a master bh. i expect it. but some 'uber 1337 dewd' who's been playing for 2 weeks and has bh 0400 having more speed, higher accuracy, AND a dizzy that works...pfah!
just reduce the bounty carb-line's speed/accuracy by half in each box, and then give all the leftovers into the master box. that's the one,simple solution. or make it to where they don't stack w/carbineer mods (another simple solution that i, MYSELF, could program in if i had the whole of the swg database at my fingertips..and i SUCK at coding. however, i'm a master of taking what's already there and modifying it to new purposes. case in point, the llc tree. granted, new weapons would have to be made that are bounty-only) that would have the added benefit of breathing new life into the way that the +speed mods are currently programmed to take affect. (that is, the hard-coded 1sec cap, with the +speed caps taking a percentage of reload time off of teh weapons delay. w/o the hard-cap, the weapons would theoretically fire an infinite number of times in zero amount of time. the paradox inherent in it is mind-boggling, and i have NO clue why it was done that way, but hey! like i said, i suck at programming..that was probably easier, and tag on the 1-second hard-cap to fix the paradox, and you're gtg.)
Its because bounty hunters, yes they are suppost to be able to hunt down and kill people 1 on 1, but thats while they use there complete arsenal of weaponry, a bounty hunter who uses carbines to knockdown, pistols to set em on fire and blind em, and LLC to fry them should win agaisnt carabineers everytime because a bounty hunter trains in versatility with many different weapons but ISNT the master of any of them, BUTa bounty hunter using ONLY a carbine vs a carabineer (who is the MASTER and using carbines) the carabineer should win every time. but unfortuently this isnt the case.
this is how it SHOULD look, but it doesnt alwayslook this way:
bounty hunter only using a pistol vs a pistoleer = the pistoleer should win, seeing how they are the master of pistols
bounty hunter only using a carbine vs a carabineer = the carabineer should win, seeing how they are the master of carbines
bounty hunter only using LLC (heavy weaponry) vs a commando = the commando should win, seeing how they are the masters of heavy weaponry
bounty hunter using all the weapons in his arsenal (pistol carbine and llc) vs a pistoleer = the bounty hunter should win
bounty hunter using all the weapons in his arsenal vs a carabineer = the bounty hunter should win
bounty hunter using all the weapons in his arsenal vs a commando = the bounty hunter should win\
while bounty hunters are masters of versatility and using all the weapons in there arsenal against there foe, carabineers and pistoleers are limited to using just carbines or pistols, therefore they are the MASTERS of those weapons and cannot be outdone by anyone else using them. they pull out there carbine, knocksomeone on there back and dizzy them, pull out there pistol, pop em in the eye blinding them, shoot em in the torso setting them on fire (only god knows how this happens..), then switch to there llc, run up close, kneel and fry them like a bug flying into a electrical bug zapper.
Carabineers train ALONG time using just the carbine, they become masters are using it wheather is be loading speed firing speed and accuracy they are the best at ALL of these traits when using a carbine because they know 100% of carbines and no other weapons, carabineers eat.sleep, and breath carbines,they can take it apart blind folded, put it back together, and then hit a target (at there ideal range 30m) blindfolded right squad in the head (exagurating but im trying to get the point that carabineers are the best possible anyone could be with the carbine), they train with the carbine so much that NO ONE could out do them at the carbine (unless another carabineer).
Same goes for pistoleers, blah blah yadda yadda, eat sleep breath pistols, you get the idea (hopefully)
Bounty hunters on the other hand, train with carbines, pistols, and llc, therefore not training NEARLY as much with one gun as much as a carabineer or pistoleer would, they become really good at the carbine pistol and llc, but they donot become the best due to the fact that there training in 3 different weapon types, meanwhile the carabineer is just training the carbine.
This is the way its suppost to be, but its not always this way
oh for F**KS sake, take it to the BH thread if ur that bothered, im carbineer and have never complained bout BH carbine skills.................
all i want if carbineer skill to be "fixed" ie:
defenses fixed
HAM costs fixed
specials fixed
if BH carbine skills have better speed so what, those carbineers moaning note u are not BH so why do u care!?! concentrate on getting our own prof fixed before crying nerf on other profs
Leomi wrote:
BH is supposed to be able to hunt people down and kill with ease. Thats what you all dont get. BH's are meant to have more speed and accuracy.
What you don't get is that the combat in this game amongst elites is supposed to be balanced: ie if you are a master with your weapon you should have an 'equal' chance of matching your opponent through different moves and tactics applied to that weapon. If there is one uber combat class then all combat will gravitate to that class, plain and simple, until it's pointless to play anything else and this game is Star Wars- Bounty Hunter.
-- YP
