Carbineer Archive
Thread: Now who said carbines was not good in PvP ?
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YamadaMan
Tue Jul 27, 2004 7:56 pm
#1
Well.. sounds weird coming from me.. anyway.
two days ago, I started to train for PvP with a MBH/pistoleer buddy, I'm BH 2440 (not going for master), Carbineer 2300, pistoleer 0044.
so at first he owned me bad, then I started to move, use walls and stuff, started to win sometimes.
then I dueled a jedi, got owned bad (damn saber block).
well, today i wanted to pursue my training and got nothing but victories, against a few templates including TKMs or Pistols stackers, won quite easy, dealing with fire KD/crippling shot, doing around 500/600pvp damage per shot every second.
now I keep hearing that carbines su(k for PvP, I said it myself, well... I think things have changed, or maybe I got lucky who knows ?
I just wanted to share my feelings here, and see what you guys think about carbines and PvP, I think they're great, and a pure master carbineer/BH carbines should be able to own in duels as well as in multiopponent PvP.
Proud to hold a carbine !
two days ago, I started to train for PvP with a MBH/pistoleer buddy, I'm BH 2440 (not going for master), Carbineer 2300, pistoleer 0044.
so at first he owned me bad, then I started to move, use walls and stuff, started to win sometimes.
then I dueled a jedi, got owned bad (damn saber block).
well, today i wanted to pursue my training and got nothing but victories, against a few templates including TKMs or Pistols stackers, won quite easy, dealing with fire KD/crippling shot, doing around 500/600pvp damage per shot every second.
now I keep hearing that carbines su(k for PvP, I said it myself, well... I think things have changed, or maybe I got lucky who knows ?
I just wanted to share my feelings here, and see what you guys think about carbines and PvP, I think they're great, and a pure master carbineer/BH carbines should be able to own in duels as well as in multiopponent PvP.
Proud to hold a carbine !
StikerRunningfly
Tue Jul 27, 2004 8:56 pm
#2
I don't think anyone is saying anything about BH carbines/master carbineer. What most people refer to is straight carbineer. Here's an example for you. I currently have a master carbineer/master ranger. While doing a battle with another guild, I stayed in the back, trying to fire shots to support the brawlers in the group, as far as I could tell, most, if not all of these shots were missed. A few of the brawlers from the other side spotted me and decided to run me down. As they came at me, I tried to use full auto singe 2 and could not get one hit. I tried action shot 2 to change the posture on some of them, managed to hit 1 of them for 27 damage, and did not get one posture change to stick, then charge shot 2 which didn't do anything but bring me 5 meters closer to them. As I moved off, I chose the closest target and continued to shoot at him (some combination of fencer/pikeman). Out of 27 shots, I managed to him with 2 of them, 1 for 19, and the other for 24. He managed to get within 20 meters of me, used his lunge attack and hit me with a mind fire lance once, then once with a mind disease lance, turned around, and ran off while I waited for my dizzy state to wear off. I incapped and one of the other guys ran up and hit me with the DB that happened. End of battle. Now keep in mind, many of these shots were taken in or near ideal range with a +34 mod on the carbine, and some SEA's that add accuracy and accuracy while moving (+5 on each). Now, my complaint isn't that BH carbines/master carbineer is better than straight carbineer, more skillpoints invested into a single weapon should be faster and more accurate. My complaint is that I shouldn't have to spend an extra 97 skillpoints just to be able to hit more than 3 times in an entire battle.
YamadaMan wrote:
Well.. sounds weird coming from me.. anyway.
two days ago, I started to train for PvP with a MBH/pistoleer buddy, I'm BH 2440 (not going for master), Carbineer 2300, pistoleer 0044.
so at first he owned me bad, then I started to move, use walls and stuff, started to win sometimes.
then I dueled a jedi, got owned bad (damn saber block).
well, today i wanted to pursue my training and got nothing but victories, against a few templates including TKMs or Pistols stackers, won quite easy, dealing with fire KD/crippling shot, doing around 500/600pvp damage per shot every second.
now I keep hearing that carbines su(k for PvP, I said it myself, well... I think things have changed, or maybe I got lucky who knows ?
I just wanted to share my feelings here, and see what you guys think about carbines and PvP, I think they're great, and a pure master carbineer/BH carbines should be able to own in duels as well as in multiopponent PvP.
Proud to hold a carbine !
Justuss71
Tue Jul 27, 2004 9:58 pm
#3
To defeat melee defense stackers, you need your ideal range to be upwards of around 80 or higher. You also need citros snow cakes.
You have tokeep a whole stash of different foods then quickly based on your assesment of a situation pick the right foods to eat. If I anticipate meleers coming at me, I definitely eat a snowcake. I then identify which stat pool they're going for. If they're going for my mind pool then I might pop a muon to give me an edge. If they're going for my health/action, I might takea neutron pixie.
Basicaly, you have to analyze your opponents then develop strategies to defeat them. That is the basic idea behind any combat in the known universe.
Without BH Carbines, you definitely need to get your hands on all the carbine speed attachments you can get. If you're not at the speed cap, you're useless. Any state defense can be overcome with constant repititon of the state you are wishing to apply. The only exception to this rule is knockdown and posture down. Once your attack fail, you have to wait a certain amount of time before you can try this attack again. Some kind of timer prevents you from spamming posture change shots.
TAfirehawk
Wed Jul 28, 2004 7:19 am
#4
YamadaMan wrote:
Well.. sounds weird coming from me.. anyway.
two days ago, I started to train for PvP with a MBH/pistoleer buddy, I'm BH 2440 (not going for master), Carbineer 2300, pistoleer 0044.
so at first he owned me bad, then I started to move, use walls and stuff, started to win sometimes.
then I dueled a jedi, got owned bad (damn saber block).
well, today i wanted to pursue my training and got nothing but victories, against a few templates including TKMs or Pistols stackers, won quite easy, dealing with fire KD/crippling shot, doing around 500/600pvp damage per shot every second.
now I keep hearing that carbines su(k for PvP, I said it myself, well... I think things have changed, or maybe I got lucky who knows ?
I just wanted to share my feelings here, and see what you guys think about carbines and PvP, I think they're great, and a pure master carbineer/BH carbines should be able to own in duels as well as in multiopponent PvP.
Proud to hold a carbine !
You are NOT a pure Master Carbineer.....just throw that thought away. It has been discussed for almost a year now, a BH/Carbineer IS GOOD IN PvP, but just a Carbineer is NOT unless maxed on SEA's and even then it is iffy.
You are a hybrid offensive template and just like my defensive Carbineer, neither of us has any business talking about wins in PvP as being proof of Carbineer being strong. You clearly stated you won with BH Specials and clearly gain an offensive advantage with the BH Skill Mods.
And personally I likedefenses, along with maxed SEA's that I have, will stand up to you and laugh....you can't kill me....but thankfully SWG allows many, many options for different play styles.
BTW, you rez'd THIS dead horse.....it was killed months ago.....
Rorenikibi
Wed Jul 28, 2004 7:56 am
#5
Even so,he's using the same techniques that pure Carbineers used to hold the line against complete uselessnes.
Mobility, terrain, and speed.
The major difference between a Pure Carbineer and a BH-Carbineer is the ability to cap out on slower weapons and ultra-reliable KD attacks.
wyx1
Wed Jul 28, 2004 8:36 am
#6
Rorenikibi wrote:Even so,he's using the same techniques that pure Carbineers used to hold the line against complete uselessnes.Mobility, terrain, and speed.The major difference between a Pure Carbineer and a BH-Carbineer is the ability to cap out on slower weapons and ultra-reliable KD attacks.
Exactly! that is a Major difference!
Pure master carbineers (i.e. what this forum is for) are pants at PVP and cant outdamage anyone for loot! I hate myself
Rarool
Wed Jul 28, 2004 10:41 am
#7
Guys, your not suggesting that someone with M-Carbineer should beat someone with M-Carbineer/Fencer or M-Carbineer/Swordsman etc... are u. That's kinda silly. Carbineer is a great skill set. No single mastery will ever OWN pvp... well accept... TKM and Jedi and Combat Medic. However, I digress. In general Carbineer is a great skill set. I love M-Carbineer to death. Yes Im MBH/Carbineer/Pistoleer (maybe brawler soon)... but... geesh isn't everyone a hybrid or are there people complaining they can't win in highly competitive pvp with free skill points????
I do think Carbineer needs some love but... useless is the farthest thing acarbineer is in any encounter.
Message Edited by Rarool on 07-28-2004 10:42 AM
StikerRunningfly
Wed Jul 28, 2004 1:25 pm
#8
Rarool wrote:
Guys, your not suggesting that someone with M-Carbineer should beat someone with M-Carbineer/Fencer or M-Carbineer/Swordsman etc... are u. That's kinda silly. Carbineer is a great skill set. No single mastery will ever OWN pvp... well accept... TKM and Jedi and Combat Medic. However, I digress. In general Carbineer is a great skill set. I love M-Carbineer to death. Yes Im MBH/Carbineer/Pistoleer (maybe brawler soon)... but... geesh isn't everyone a hybrid or are there people complaining they can't win in highly competitive pvp with free skill points????
I do think Carbineer needs some love but... useless is the farthest thing acarbineer is in any encounter.
Message Edited by Rarool on 07-28-2004 10:42 AM
No, I'm not suggesting that a master carbineer should dominate in pvp over other combined professions. What I am saying is, that in this example of a typical fight, I was useless against every brawler. The reasons for thisare ranged defense +125, dodge +125, 75% pvp damage reduction, 80% resists to all three types of damage we do, buffs at +2500 to the pools we typically hit, and DOT weapons that the one guy only had to use once each to put me out of the fight (first to dizzy + KD + mind fire, second to mind disease). Now in battles with pistoleers, commandos, bounty hunters, and even a few riflemen, it's been a bit more even. All I am saying is that, with the current combat system, manymelee templates dominate over all ranged professions. Let's face it, pistoleers, bounty hunters and even commandos are in the same boat we are, although bounty hunters did get some love with the reduction in skillpoints needed to be one.
We shouldn't have to throw all of our skillpoints into straight offense/defense skills, spend millions on skilltapes, and millions more on weapons with extremely high ranged mods just to be able to hit more than 3 or 4 times in an entire battle. I'll agree that those who do all that should get a certain advantage, but no one in this game should be virtually invulnerable to everyone with a master of an elite profession.
KilferfUhn
Wed Jul 28, 2004 2:06 pm
#9
"Once your attack fail, you have to wait a certain amount of time before you can try this attack again."
Is this true? I don't think so.....forgive my ignorance but as far as i have experienced, FAILING to knockdown/posture changeyour target does NOT set a timer, rather STICKING the knockdown/posture changeWILL set a timer - thus preventing us from spamming knockdown/posture changecontiniously with success. You cannotapply another knockdown/posture changefor a set amount of time, something around 19-30 seconds.
I may be wrong, but i don't think so. Either way one of us is passing along some bad info lol, could get someone killed. 
Where is TA? 
AdmiralSpy
Wed Jul 28, 2004 3:58 pm
#10
I hate to say it.. but.. dueling and PvP are two very different things.
Some templates are geared towards dueling.. and others are not. Even just Master Carbineer fairs out quite nicely in 1 on 1 duels.
The sad fact is.. most people don't prep up the same way for duels as well. Most will not fill their food and drink bars with the 'regular' foods.. and may not even ingest Thakatillo (KD defense) which is often used in large-scale encounters.
Dueling is a very passive form of PvP. There's no use in dueling a CM, for example, because you know their best betis to toss and run. PvP generally involves groups of people.. and if they work together.. the fact that your dueler couldn't heal himself or states on him (cause he's not a Doc) immediately goes out the window. They will get rehealed if they are smart, and your Health/Action incaps are suddenly non-existant.
The reason people "complain" about Carbineer is because in large-scale PvP.. we cannot out-damage smart opponents who know how to heal themselves. Regen, doc buffs, top of the line armor and PSGs will stop you unless you dabble in the BH line or can miraculously avoid any melee'rs in combat.
YamadaMan
Wed Jul 28, 2004 7:29 pm
#11
well, there's a few things people don't do and I think they're important.
first of all, most just stand still/spam shots
best way to get eaten by a melee, I mean why should ranged fighters stand at melee's ideal range (0-7m) when out ranges are between 25 and 45m ? low accuracy, low defense, opponent's ideal range, it's totally normal to lose in that case. Some call that cheating, so I propose 1 thing, we do 1 duel at their ideal range, and 1 more at mine, see what's changing, of course they'll answer "no", at least smart ones will think about it.
we got walls and buildings that effects combat, so why shouldn't we use em ?
then we got KD, fire KD for some, Regular KD for others, well, most of PvPists, duelists, take def vs KD mods, so there's one thing jedis do and we can do it as well to bypass KD defense mods, dizzy shot (full auto single 2 for example) then posture change shot (yea need marksman ranged support to get that one), works quite fine on melee dudes, fencers, TKMs etc...
then we got food, canapes, synthsteak and others that can help as well, not necessary tho.
straight carbineers do have a speed issue, wich might be fixed (hopefully) in combat revamp... I could experience both, carbines and BH/carbine, speed makes the difference for sure, but as said above, PvP and Duel are not the same thing, as a straight carbineer would be usefull in PvP (area shots, state shots...) a BH/carbineer dabbler would suck bad cause it's focused on 1vs1 PvP.
but seeing things as they stand, there's not much massive PvP anyway...
first of all, most just stand still/spam shots
best way to get eaten by a melee, I mean why should ranged fighters stand at melee's ideal range (0-7m) when out ranges are between 25 and 45m ? low accuracy, low defense, opponent's ideal range, it's totally normal to lose in that case. Some call that cheating, so I propose 1 thing, we do 1 duel at their ideal range, and 1 more at mine, see what's changing, of course they'll answer "no", at least smart ones will think about it.
we got walls and buildings that effects combat, so why shouldn't we use em ?
then we got KD, fire KD for some, Regular KD for others, well, most of PvPists, duelists, take def vs KD mods, so there's one thing jedis do and we can do it as well to bypass KD defense mods, dizzy shot (full auto single 2 for example) then posture change shot (yea need marksman ranged support to get that one), works quite fine on melee dudes, fencers, TKMs etc...
then we got food, canapes, synthsteak and others that can help as well, not necessary tho.
straight carbineers do have a speed issue, wich might be fixed (hopefully) in combat revamp... I could experience both, carbines and BH/carbine, speed makes the difference for sure, but as said above, PvP and Duel are not the same thing, as a straight carbineer would be usefull in PvP (area shots, state shots...) a BH/carbineer dabbler would suck bad cause it's focused on 1vs1 PvP.
but seeing things as they stand, there's not much massive PvP anyway...
StikerRunningfly
Thu Jul 29, 2004 1:47 am
#12
YamadaMan wrote:
straight carbineers do have a speed issue, wich might be fixed (hopefully) in combat revamp... I could experience both, carbines and BH/carbine, speed makes the difference for sure, but as said above, PvP and Duel are not the same thing, as a straight carbineer would be usefull in PvP (area shots, state shots...) a BH/carbineer dabbler would suck bad cause it's focused on 1vs1 PvP.
but seeing things as they stand, there's not much massive PvP anyway...
Ok, so what you are saying here is that a straight up master carbineer is better in pvp than a BH carbine/master carbineer when there are more than one person?
YamadaMan
Thu Jul 29, 2004 4:09 am
#13
well, I have the chance as I said, to have both, one of my alt's straight carbineer and another's BH/carbineer/dfenses (no master)
the big difference, IMO:
Straight carbineers are tactical soldiers, mid range, state area attacks etc... not the ones who're supposed to kill the opponents.
they have to take care about enemy's states and give em weaknesses.
BH/Carbineers are duelists, meant to kill a single opponent, in a duel, for that purpose they get tactical specials (confusion, FAS2, KD) to a single target, and damaging specials with capped speed, always for a single target (crippling...). they can handle a single opponent easy but have more difficulty to find emselves a room in multiple players PvP.
just for info, straight BH carbines line has no damaging specials, BH are meant to damage with pistols or LLC, and apply states with carbines, all specials are single target, while straight carbineers most specials are multi target.
the big difference, IMO:
Straight carbineers are tactical soldiers, mid range, state area attacks etc... not the ones who're supposed to kill the opponents.
they have to take care about enemy's states and give em weaknesses.
BH/Carbineers are duelists, meant to kill a single opponent, in a duel, for that purpose they get tactical specials (confusion, FAS2, KD) to a single target, and damaging specials with capped speed, always for a single target (crippling...). they can handle a single opponent easy but have more difficulty to find emselves a room in multiple players PvP.
just for info, straight BH carbines line has no damaging specials, BH are meant to damage with pistols or LLC, and apply states with carbines, all specials are single target, while straight carbineers most specials are multi target.
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