Carbineer Archive
Thread: Combat Rebalance Speed changes?
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jfang
Thu Jun 17, 2004 1:35 pm
#27
atimes wrote:
I disagree. The entire combat systemwill bechanging however, the basis for the change hasn't been altered from the little we know. We know that there will be weapon changes, speed changes andHAM changes. We've always known that and that hasn't changed and since that's the core of any combat system the core of the CB hasn't changed.
We know that they have new speed tables, new HAM costs on specials and new weapons and weapon types. What probably will change will be the tweaking of what's already scoped out. IMO the basis of the combat balance was scoped out months ago and the initial design of it hasn't changed much.
We'll never know though since we know so little of the CB to begin with. I will say this though. I DO know that all the new weapons that have been added to the game like the D10 pistol, DXR6 Rifle etc were added with Combat Balance stats instead of current stats. In other words the devs created the stats of the weapons to be more in line with the combat balance rather than be in line with the current system. Also the Jedi revamp is being done with the combat balance in mind in terms of their damage and stats on their sabers.
So given the fact that the Combat Balance is still months away and weapons introduced months ago were introduced with the combat balance in mind tells me that the core of the combat balance has been scoped out for quite some time.
Message Edited by atimes on 06-17-2004 04:26 PM
I think the combat balance has been in flux, in that the "don't spam specials" countermeasure they are planning now is much different than the one described by the fencers a few months ago. We do know that speeds, damages, armor, and many other things will be changing in the rebalance. However, that is so vague such that the devs can do almost anything at any time and still fulfill those requirements (including but not limited to just patching all the items in the game without changing anything).
Are you sure the new guns are in line with post-revamp numbers? I have seen the stats of some DE-10's, and they do more damage than existing elite carbines. This might make sense if you slowed everything down so few things were at speed cap (as the DE-10 was 4+ speed). It is possible that this is just a coincidental interaction between a new gun and an old skill system, but it does seem odd.
To the best of my knowledge, the only official line that devs have given is that the new lightsabers (on TC right now) are post-revamp numbers. All other information, such as that armor will be much weaker judging from Mandalorian armor numbers, is more or less speculation by the players.
La-grange
Thu Jun 17, 2004 3:22 pm
#28
Point noted. The creature nerf was supposed to be in preperation for the combat balance. However what are we balancing? A boatload of borked professions. Some of which need lots of love. Pistoleer or commando ring a bell? It makes more sense to fix broken professions then balance than to go straight to the balance. Then fix the professions only to create more imbalance. Then go back and rebalance. Alot of what was said in the original post are pretty much silent nerfs on rifleman. Healable mind stats and readjusting the speed tables suggest that anyways.
And what of our own ill conceived profession? I have been compairing the carbineer skill tree since I first mastered in oct. We are supposed to be the middle ground in the small arms world and come up remarkably short. Both offensively and defensively. We should have gotten a +80 for a speed mod. The DXR6 carbine should have been upgraded to AP2 with the introduction of the DXR6b Disruptor rifle. This is the short version of the rifle and not the long version of the pistol. If it were the long version of the pistol then It would have been called the DX2 carbine. This is, of course, using the laser carbine and the laser rifle as a model. The elite should have recieved AP2 from the start. Our defenses (ranged and melee) should have been somewhere between a rifleman and a pistoleer. I can go on further but the horse has already been beat into glue.
I love this profession. But like alot of other professions in the game. We need some lovin. I'm trying to see the combat balance as an optomistic thing. Big problem is that I am a pessimist. Like I said before, the only thing I can do Is wait and hope that things get somewhat better.
And what of our own ill conceived profession? I have been compairing the carbineer skill tree since I first mastered in oct. We are supposed to be the middle ground in the small arms world and come up remarkably short. Both offensively and defensively. We should have gotten a +80 for a speed mod. The DXR6 carbine should have been upgraded to AP2 with the introduction of the DXR6b Disruptor rifle. This is the short version of the rifle and not the long version of the pistol. If it were the long version of the pistol then It would have been called the DX2 carbine. This is, of course, using the laser carbine and the laser rifle as a model. The elite should have recieved AP2 from the start. Our defenses (ranged and melee) should have been somewhere between a rifleman and a pistoleer. I can go on further but the horse has already been beat into glue.
I love this profession. But like alot of other professions in the game. We need some lovin. I'm trying to see the combat balance as an optomistic thing. Big problem is that I am a pessimist. Like I said before, the only thing I can do Is wait and hope that things get somewhat better.
La-grange
Thu Jun 17, 2004 8:44 pm
#29
The devs have a good idea??
I lost faith in that idea going back to when they added the timer to charge shot. Seems to be they added the timer to charge shot 2 as well cause they thought it was working.
Sorry if I sound bitter but this jedi revamp thing has me spun.
I lost faith in that idea going back to when they added the timer to charge shot. Seems to be they added the timer to charge shot 2 as well cause they thought it was working.
Sorry if I sound bitter but this jedi revamp thing has me spun.
Message Edited by La-grange on 06-17-2004 08:47 PM
Eldudorino
Thu Jun 17, 2004 10:29 pm
#30
I personally dont think the devs have done jack squat about the CB other than get a few posts on the board saying what they INTEND to do. They have never revealed ANY details, which leads me to belive they are currently just stalling, leaving the revamp to be a last minute kind of thing like all the changes on test center for Publish 9are right now.
Wideshot
Thu Jun 17, 2004 10:48 pm
#31
1. The idea of pool points that drain during combat rather than the HAM pool seems great. A restriction on spamming specials is fine. The current system of killing myself by making 4 shots with my carbine is not. I really shouldn't need Doc buffs to hunt on a basic planet because I do more damage to myself when I shoot than an opponent does to me. Let's just hope that the pool points are properly balanced.
2. I don't like the idea of delays regarding armour and weapons, it simply means that people will stick to the high DPS weapons rather change tactically, If the issue is Jedi's wearing armour, why are they in it in the first place.... "use the composite Luke".
TAfirehawk
Fri Jun 18, 2004 12:33 am
#32
atimes wrote:
TAfirehawk wrote:
LOL
That is from Dec 4, 2003....... LOL LOL LOL
Umm was there a point to that? You just validated my point. The CB has been in heavy planning since December which was more than 6 months ago. So it's notthat the devs arechanging combat on a "whim".
This is something that has been discussed with us and was told to us months ago. In fact I think the original thread that TH made was done in september on the old swg disscussion boards.
OK.....
The point is that nothing said recently let alone that long ago could be taken as something that will PROBABLY be done.....maybe a MIGHT be done.....
While the IDEA of the Combat Revamp/Balance is not a whim,Ibet themajority will be done in too short a time frame.....
How many times has the entire basis of the Combat Revamp/Balance been changed in this amount of time.....
TAfirehawk
Fri Jun 18, 2004 6:04 am
#33
Originally we had the COMBAT REVAMP but after the community with their heads up their arse on the Crafting Revamp......we now have a COMBAT BALANCE.
I don't believe this change in terminology is by accident....
Yes profs are to be fixed and that goes hand in hand with creating a balance. But lets not be fooled into thinking anything but going LIVE will test this "new balance" so expect the whole process to take 4-8 weeks to complete on LIVE.
atimes
Fri Jun 18, 2004 6:46 am
#34
jfang wrote:
Are you sure the new guns are in line with post-revamp numbers? I have seen the stats of some DE-10's, and they do more damage than existing elite carbines. This might make sense if you slowed everything down so few things were at speed cap (as the DE-10 was 4+ speed). It is possible that this is just a coincidental interaction between a new gun and an old skill system, but it does seem odd.
Yep. I remember reading a post (I can't remember where I go everywhere on these forums) where someone asked about the gun and the answer from the devs was "We had 2 choices. We could either put the gun out using current system numbers and change it once the CB went live or we could just put out the CB version. We opted to just put out the CB version"
I still think the core of the balance is fleshed out if only on paper. The "sandbox" thingie that they are talking about will be where stuff is tweaked.
/put on software engineer programmer hat
It's highly doubtful this stuff will be coded on the fly. The bulk of the balance coding will be done before the sandbox comes online. For something like this it seems like it would be highly infeasible that this would be coded ad hoc. If it were, it wouldn't be the combat balance, it'd be the combat hotfix. You really can't code something like this on the fly since it's a total revamp of the combat system. You don't take the entire core of combat, gut it and then replace it piece by piece on TC. You have to have a core of combat code or the thing won't work. Since this is a total replacement of our current combat system all the old code is going away. Since the old code is going away there has to be new code in place or you'll have no combat balance. . . in fact you'll have no combat.
My best educated guess is they will code in the initial system they have planned out and merely fiddle with numbers once the sandbox goes live. Fiddling with numbers is an entirely different story than re-coding an entire system.
Here's a RLexample. Let's take that Extreme Makeover Home Edition show. The current combat system is the house before the design team gets there. The combat balance is them ripping down the entire house to the studs (the studs would be the rest of the SWG code) and re-building it back up . The sandbox where all the tweaking will be done is them simply re-arranging furniture once the new house is done before the family comes home.
At least that's how I see it.
/take off software engineer programmer hat
jfang
Fri Jun 18, 2004 7:00 am
#35
La-grange wrote:
The devs have a good idea??
I lost faith in that idea going back to when they added the timer to charge shot. Seems to be they added the timer to charge shot 2 as well cause they thought it was working.
Sorry if I sound bitter but this jedi revamp thing has me spun.
Message Edited by La-grange on 06-17-2004 08:47 PM
If you are referring to the "you can only be knocked down once in 30 seconds", I think that was a great idea. Otherwise, you end up with the very real possibility of a person being knocked down over and over, and being helpless in combat. (Kind of like dizzy-kd, only less defendable.)
Now if we could convince them that dizzy should affect all posture changes except when you are prone, so dizzy-KD wasn't so powerful. I'm convinced that the fish-flop was purely an oversight in the game. Then again, that is probably just me...
Only 9,829 more posts...
Edit: corrected count, oops.
Message Edited by jfang on 06-18-2004 03:02 PM
La-grange
Fri Jun 18, 2004 11:11 am
#36
jfang wrote:
La-grange wrote:
The devs have a good idea??
I lost faith in that idea going back to when they added the timer to charge shot. Seems to be they added the timer to charge shot 2 as well cause they thought it was working.
Sorry if I sound bitter but this jedi revamp thing has me spun.Message Edited by La-grange on 06-17-2004 08:47 PM
If you are referring to the "you can only be knocked down once in 30 seconds", I think that was a great idea. Otherwise, you end up with the very real possibility of a person being knocked down over and over, and being helpless in combat. (Kind of like dizzy-kd, only less defendable.)
Now if we could convince them that dizzy should affect all posture changes except when you are prone, so dizzy-KD wasn't so powerful. I'm convinced that the fish-flop was purely an oversight in the game. Then again, that is probably just me...
Only 99,829 more posts...
I thought it was a great Idea as well. I grew tired of kd'ing people and having the "your attack has failed to knock down the target" message flash across the screen. I never spammed that shot anyways cause the animations tended to limit my mobility and it never had done enough damage for me to use like that anyways.
What I am pointing out is that the devs obviously don't have a good idea about everything going on in the game. They added a timer to a broken special. When nova enquired as to why. The response was that the developers thought it was working. That is not acceptable. The only reason that shot got fixed in the first place was because some jedi complained about it after a BH used it to take one down. We complained about it and the devs said it was working as intended.
Another thing I really want to point out is the new special point system that was reffered to. Great idea. We aren't killing ourselves. However the devs also said that they are increasing the cost of specials as well. The last time I checked we are still having an issue with the cost of ham on specials. Again either "wait for the combat pass" or "we are looking into it" from the devs is all I hear when someone asks if they are going to fix it. They have been looking into that problem for months now. No fix. So what happens when the cost of specials go up with this new system? All I see is another problem for carbineers.
And yet another point I really want to bring up is the mobility thing for ranged folks. Why is that needed? It's not like we have much of a chance to evade melee attacks anyways with a 2.5x mod to hit in the melee vs ranged world. So now on top of making us much eaiser to hit they are slowing us down as well. Do you think that is right?
jfang
Fri Jun 18, 2004 11:34 am
#37
La-grange wrote:
Another thing I really want to point out is the new special point system that was reffered to. Great idea. We aren't killing ourselves. However the devs also said that they are increasing the cost of specials as well. The last time I checked we are still having an issue with the cost of ham on specials. Again either "wait for the combat pass" or "we are looking into it" from the devs is all I hear when someone asks if they are going to fix it. They have been looking into that problem for months now. No fix. So what happens when the cost of specials go up with this new system? All I see is another problem for carbineers.
And yet another point I really want to bring up is the mobility thing for ranged folks. Why is that needed? It's not like we have much of a chance to evade melee attacks anyways with a 2.5x mod to hit in the melee vs ranged world. So now on top of making us much eaiser to hit they are slowing us down as well. Do you think that is right?
I'm honestly not a big fan of the new "mana" system for specials, in that it is very cliche. I liked the HAM cost system in that it was something new and different, and worked very well in limited specials (as evidenced by your post). The problem is some unforseen interactions with buffs, spamming specials, and player behavior... Oh well, a cliche system which works is much better than an innovative one which doesn't. 
Mobility is different for different weapons? I had forgotten about that rumor. If it is true, that would explain why there might be a weapon switching delay, so a person can't equip a cdef pistol to run you down, then pull out a "T-21 ofpainful death (tm)".
As for your concern, I think it is premature to talk about that. After all, they are presumably weakening armor, so the shots you get off while they are closing hurt more. Not to mention that even if you are slowed down 20%, if you are running away from an opponent that's still a fair amount of time you can kite the person (imagine that you are standing still and your opponent is walking to you). Counterbalancing this of course is the slower attack speed and fewer special attacks, but the point is that without seeing the whole system you can't really judge what all the implications of the system will be.
If anything, I would be more worried about the implications of the speed system in regards to "fire and forget" DOTs, as somebody (eg. combat medic or a health fire pistol) could hit you, then de-equipand run away at "full speed" while you are trying to chase him or her down with a weapon equipped. Like I just said though, it is too early to really worry about things like that, the different run speeds not having been confirmed in the new system, and there being many other issues to consider as well.
Only 9,816 more to go...
Edit: Typos... How did I post before getting edit, I'm not sure...
Edit: corrected count, oops.
Message Edited by jfang on 06-18-2004 03:03 PM
Bennyboy4308
Fri Jun 18, 2004 7:32 pm
#38
In my opinion, the way it should work is kinda like rock/paper/scissors, cept the rock can beat the paper if the rock is smart and the paper isn't.
Pistoleers- Should be the anti-melee. Getting up close and dodging thier strikes. Has some state effects.
Riflemen- All around damage dealer. No states or posture changes, just pure damage. Should have thier best attacked a cone, like strafeshot2 is now. Low defense, high offense. Especially weak to melee professions. Try blocking a punch with a massive T21...
Carbineers- Anti-ranged profession. Kind of the shock trooper. Applies states and can damage crowds, but not as effectivly as riflemen. Kind of weak to melee but not to the extent of riflemen.
Melee- Defenses should be toned down a little bit, but still can dodge a few. When up close should have a small advantage against ranged professions, yet not unbeatable.
Just how I see how this game should be.
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