Carbineer Archive
Thread: OFFICIAL Carbineer Class Distinction Thread
Expand on our theme of AEs and state effects to make us crowd control by way of states and interesting debuffs. There are a few traps that I think would make excellent effect additions to carbineer -- for instance, as somebody mentioned, there's one with a movement slowing effect. As legshot specialists, I think this would make a really good replacement to legshot 3's stun, since we've already got wild shot and fullauto to stun.
I think that perhaps, in the effort to distinguish combat professions, perhaps we could benefit from losing a little single-target damage output capability in return for a strong AE role -- don't touch fullautoarea's or even buff them, but also give us tools to control crowds well enough to make AE combat with a couple carbineers and whatever melee gets the AE crown (I'm guessing pikeman, but since the devs are opening it up to player input, it might not end up that way) more than just possible with casualties, but attractive as a means of combat.
Other things this would entail are: fixing AE shots to hit targets not yet in combat rather than just aggroing them, and removing lairs as AE targets, so that one doesn't keep spawning and spawning creatures.
One more suggestion -- I expect a lot of us will want to keep our knockdown and posture change aspects of crowd control, myself included. However, I think that two changes need to be made to shots that have these as effects, to make combat with them more tactically interesting. KD and PC shots should not be "spammable" in solo combat. There should be more to winning a fight than repeating one move over and over. To that end, shots involving PC and KD should be changed to be low damage, but without significant timer limitations.
The second change to PC and KD behavior that I think are needed aren't to the shots themselves, but instead to the mechanic of changing posture itself. Posture changes could be a lot more powerful (and are a lot more widespread than knockdowns) control devices than they currently are. Why are they fairly ineffectual now? Because one can immediately traverse from one end of the posture spectrum to the other, and you can do that nearly instantaneously. A simple measure would be to add a small timer (say, 3 seconds) on voluntary and forced posture changes, and to force one to go through kneeling to stand from prone or KD, or to go prone from standing. Now, duplicate the roll to standing move from the ranged support tree, adding them to novice melee levels (or level 4 of all trees in brawler, but that seems less elegant by having multiple locations in the same profession). This presents a tactical choice for combatants. How important is this posture change? Do I need it fast enough to warrant HAM use to bypass the progressive posture change and timers? Or can I take my time and let the timers kick in?
Finally, I'd like to see a carbineer's action-targetting more strongly correllated with limiting the target's special useage. Currently, the HAM costs of specials are often either fairly even, or even downright action cheap compared to the other pools, meaning that pistoleers or random HAM moves have equal hindering value compared to legshot, the action targetted pool. In other words, action doesn't relate strongly to special moves, as one would assume it should. This is an important correllation, because the breakdown of advantages to targetted pools assumes it to be so. Action targetting keeps your target from having choices and special attacks, mind targetting is (nearly, now, given the strong mind wound cost) unhealable, and health is the most often damaged pool, meaning that in groups it's what takes the foe down, barring a very lopsided distribution of professions.
I like the idea of becoming a "state inducing" profession, at the expense of losing some max damage.
BUT Thunderheart, please take on board that to make us a distinct profession, we should be able to apply either states that noone else can, or states in a way or for a duration that other professions cannot.
For example, being able to make every creature "stunned" is no use if every pistoleer can just as easily.
I envisage the carbineer being at the sidelines spraying laser fire into the fray in the hope of causing confusion and panic amongst the enemy. Imagine any film where a guy with a machine gun appears from behind a column every so often and just sprays bullets to cover his mates as they do more "specialised" tasks.
To reflect this in a SWG context, there are many states that you could apply. Stunned is the obvious one - make carbineers have the ability to stun targets easily, and make the stun actually do something worthwhile - decrease their attack time by 2 seconds or something - give it no "timer" but make it wear off quickly, requiring the carbineer to repeatedly perform this "covering fire" maneuver. This promotes a starwarsey feel too as shooting a hale of laser bolts at a stormtrooper causes him to take cover, in effect reducing his attack time since he has to hide behind a table or something.
I'd also like to see some new states that are exclusive to the carbineer - nothing majorly uber, but things that if used right a group will find useful. Maybe a "confused" state. A carbineer could fire laser bolts wildly into the battle causing the enemy to get "confused"...this would have the effect of causing them to randomly target another group member (useful if the group doc is being attacked?).
We all know Carbineers have "LegShots", perhaps this could be adapted to apply a "leg wound" state, which would slow a creature or player down (useful if trying to escape from a pull gone wrong). In PVE this could be useful and nice, in PVP it might need a bit more care. In PVP make it slow them down sure, but not as much as it would a creature - and allow a doctor to heal it. This would definately need a timer 
Basically,
Give us some special states or special bonuses to existing states (maybe make ours stack against other professions?).
It looks like (almost) everyone is in agreement.
We are the crowd control kings!
novamarine, I really like the idea of adding intimidate to suppression fire, considering that intimidate slows their attack rate, which is exactly the aim of suppression fire in ranged combat situations. Make them duck and cover, hindering their ability to attack frequently.
I also like your change to wild shot. While having a near guaranteed stun shot would be handy (assuming stun worked well, which is up in the air), the idea of a random pool bleed is superb. I would suggest, however, that wild shot 2 follow action shot 2's lead when the dice fall on whether it becomes single target increased bleed, or cone target (but in either case, both should remain stackable).
I disagree with your suggestion for burst shot, as I find this one to be the best candidate for remaining our damage line. Perhaps a small dot could be worked in, but I think that of any of our shots, this one should be the one to surpass fullauto in the single shot, single (though random) pool damage arena -- burstshot2 should be moved into the current crippleshot's damage arena and become the carbineer's best chance for a one-shot kill.
Instead, crippleshot should be made into a shot with a crippling effect. I've always favored the idea of massive wounds (secondary stats included -- this could fit into my perception of action targetting as being the "hindering" group of weapons: cripple secondaries with a bazillion wounds and they can't manage much special useage) for this shot, myself.
I forgot to add that I'm not thrilled with your notion of adding states to any of the scattershot line, novamarine. I am a strong proponent of scattershot, as I find the total damage per shot to be fabulous, and the resulting damage over time to be excellent despite the spread (because as more shots go on, they would have been spread over the pools anyways on a per-shot basis). I also find it to have good utility in its couple hundred points of mind per shot function, allowing one to finally kill a nearly dead mind pool (from a head hit fullauto or cripple) reliably without having to wait for another rare head hit. If anything is done to change scatter, I'd like to see the spread shifted so that instead of mirroring the approximate 60/30/10 percent chance that random HAM's have in its spread, it might be interesting to see scatter produce a spread something like 40/40/20, in other words, a little more even than the over-time-effect of random HAM shots.
However, the reason I'm opposed to adding states to a scatter-like shot is this: as it's already an intelligent choice (or rather, *the* intelligent choice for those who don't hit the speed cap with cripple) for damage over time, adding states to it would only make it the only shot you'd ever really need. It becomes the "I win" shot, which is the same problem with untimed, high damage knockdowns (and the impetus for the KD timer).
So, keep the multi-state shot as fullautos only. They are sufficient damage as to be acceptable as the staple random HAM shot until the more damaging scatter2/cripple or the more HAM efficient burst shot is obtained, while the states give it utility even after its damage has been surpassed. Making a master level multi-state shot is fine, but it should be fullauto3, and not the best damaging shot a master has. Perhaps it could be a HAM upgrade to fullauto2?
I like nova marine's ideas a lot but I also like the idea of crippling shot actually crippling the target too, the others I think are good ideas but wouldn't be good upon implementation. This is mainly do to the fact that 1. if we did less dmg we would take longer to get skills and 2. some of the changes would require us to be in groups, some of us would still like to solo once and a while.
MasterTexiria wrote:
I like nova marine's ideas a lot but I also like the idea of crippling shot actually crippling the target too, the others I think are good ideas but wouldn't be good upon implementation. This is mainly do to the fact that 1. if we did less dmg we would take longer to get skills and 2. some of the changes would require us to be in groups, some of us would still like to solo once and a while.
One idea for crippling shot.... Do you ever notice sometimes that mobs get real slow and sort of plod after you. I think one of the scout traps is supposed to do this. This would be a great crippling shot bonus.
Knockdown - as it is , spamming it feels cheap. I think it should be a once every 30 seconds attack, and if it doesnt stick, we have to wait. We all know as it is now, we can spam it and prevent a target from moving. That needs to change for fairness, especially when chargshot2 is fixed... I do think it should last a little longer when it does stick.
Dizzy - it makes sense with knockdown... but this is the one attack I don't think we should have as an area attack, again because it would be overpowering. Area Dizzy / Area Knockdown would be too good, but a single dizzy with an area knockdown buys me a little time, takes one target out of the picture for a short time (the dizzy one is less likely to stand up successfuly) In a group situation, I could "juggle" the target that gets the dizzy and essentially minimize the damage our group takes while the rest of the group takes the targets
out.
Area Bleeds - several good points on this one. I would use it when I know all the targets are occupied ( as with any area attack ) or when I know I can maneuver to hit just one target and "stack" the bleed with actionShot 1. It gives us flexibility, and provides challenge. I really don't want to lose this skill. It has killed me a few times, and saved me a few times.
Those are the main ones for me, but I will say that area attacks save me and my mates alot. I love fullautoArea 2 when there are 10 low-lev mobs abusing my TKM tank and I can take em out with 1 or 2 shots. I love when someone points at a target (or it points at them) and I can immobilize it to save their butts! I love that when I know I am goin to get killed, I can send out an Area Bleed and give the survivors a better chance of winning. Sorry for ranting, but I love being a Carbineer!
J'woo Olron
Ahazi - Defenders of Los Planos
Excellent ideas, novamarine! Of everything I have seen suggested, yours sound the coolest. I like the idea of being a 'state king.'
My own idea is that we should find a new way to be the masters of crowd control. As it is now in the game, there is no crowd control. There are several quite viable methods of pulling single mobs from a group, but no actual remedies for when a group comes after you. An AE warning shot sounds nice. It would also be nice just to have a more powerful warning shot than the marksman one. Not in actual damage, but in the fact that it makes a mob run away for more than 2 seconds! With warning shot now, you have to be quick to hit /peace, and also it helps to be kneeling I have noticed. A shot that gives the mob a stronger incentive to run away would be good. Or maybe add in an intimidate effect.
Taking a page from EQ, we can create a blaster shot version of 'mezzing.' For instance, a KD move that keeps the target mob down until you attack it (asinthey were temprarily stunned or knocked unconscious), then they get right up. For fairness we lose the damage multiplier when attacking mobs 'mezzed' in this fashion.
I also like the idea of adding a snare-like effect to the leg shot line of moves.
This is how I think carbineers should be defined
- Special attacks against action pool.
- Knockdowns / posture down just like today. No dizzy etc, that's the area of rifles.
- Powerful area attacks (think auto fire).
- High firing rate.
Alright, I'll just say what I said about Wild shot and a few other thingies:
Wild shot 1: this move should apply dizzy to a single target and of course;
Wildshot 2: This move should then obisously apply dizzy in AoE. Make it do very little damage to even out the ham cost and to make it more fair.
The reason I state the above reasons is this: A reason that ppl dabble in BH carbine is of course for speed and mabye accruacy and another thing, their specials. Fire KD (FKD) Is kinda rediculous. It does dizzy, average damage AND it does KD. I feel that we should be able to control a crowd by makin' 'em fall down like daisies. Think about it. The amount of dabbler's into BH will only drop! We will have the ability to apply Dizzy to multiple targets (possibly for less ham) and so as I said earlier, have ALOT less BH dabblers.
Devs, please head my advice. Doing stun to more ppl is useless. IF you're gonna make leg shot 3 do AoE, then it'll do stun as AoE (Leg shot 2 and 3 are the same, and they do indeed ALWAYS place stun down when I hit someone or something with it; hence it is pointless to make wild shot do the same thing.)
When I think of another improvement, I shall post it. But my idea of Wild shot imo is quite good.
Rishathra wrote:
It would also be nice just to have a more powerful warning shot than the marksman one. Not in actual damage, but in the fact that it makes a mob run away for more than 2 seconds! With warning shot now, you have to be quick to hit /peace, and also it helps to be kneeling I have noticed. A shot that gives the mob a stronger incentive to run away would be good. Or maybe add in an intimidate effect.
Trust me, we do not need a stronger warning shot. Lol, I have solod groups of 3 reds with warning shot and my single target combat skills. Heh, if you use it correctly(fire a warning shot or two and then have your next target queued) after a while they start running at least 100m away before they turn back at you. This is plenty to help to control a small group
.