Carbineer Archive
Thread: OFFICIAL Carbineer Class Distinction Thread
Developers: We agree and we want to add distinction back into the Carbineer class. Please have your community come up with suggestions they believe will make the class distinct.
So that is the abbreviated history, please propose ideas/suggestions to bring distinction to our class. After time for discussion and debate, I will pool the better/popular ideas and present them to the Developers. I want to be clear. This is not an exercise in debate. The Developers asked us for this info (seemy Dev Top 5 Response post). In addition, please be reasonable. If you ask for overpowering changes, the Developers will not take us seriously. Lastly, remember that issues such as HAM, speed, broken specials, carbine stats, etc are being addressed in the coming combat changes. Discuss a theme for our class that sets us apart from other classes. As an example, I will post my own personal thoughts in a seperate thread.
Message Edited by novamarine on 12-19-2003 05:18 PM
My own personal view is that a slight distinction Carbineers have now should be expanded. My concept builds on scattershot1/2 (which hits multiple locations) and fullautosingle/area (which adds many states). Currently the class can apply numerous states to targets: knockdown, posture change, blind, stun, dizzy (theorectically) and bleeds. I think this should be expanded so that we are the State Masters so that our targets, in addition to taking damage, are spattered with states. This is using the vision of the Carbine as a submachinegun and as such we are spraying our targets with a hail of fire that overwelms the senses. To illustrate my concept, this is what I would propose changing on certain shots:
Wildshot1: Currently this is a random pool hit that applies stun and, as such, is reduant with fullautosingle specials. Change it to be a random pool bleed. Hit a target a few times and they would be bleeding from every pool.
Wildshot2: Currently this is AoE/cone version of wildshot1 and is therefore redundant with fullautoarea1&2. This would become an AoE/cone random pool bleed (AoE/cone version of the revised wildshot1).
Burstshot2: Since crippleshot is our highest damage special, burstshot2 needs something besides more damage to make it worthy of the experience and skill points required to attain it. I propose it remain a
random pool hit but apply a fire/burn/DoT similar to Torsoshot (though random pool as opposed to health targeted as is torsoshot).
Suppresion Fire2: This skill should remain largely as is, but have a chance of adding the state Intimidation. Suppression fire is intimidating and thus this seems like a perfect match.
Lastly, for our Master box...
Scattershot3 or Peppershot: "The Master Carbineer is able to unleash a hail of shots that pepper a single target with shots infliting damage and causing great distress to the target." The skill will be a slightly more damaging version of scattershot2 and take on the chance to stun, blind, dizzy.
These changes would result in a class able to bleed, burn, stun, blind, dizzy, intimidate, KD and posture change targets. They would be feared for this on the battlefield and welcomed into any group. I realize some people will be immediately turned off by all the random pool hits as they believe Carbineer should be a class that primarily hits action. I believe this is a common misconception that every Carbineer has as they level through the Novice Marksman tree and then start into Novice Carbineer. However, random pool shots eventually take over the Carbineer class (in reality, Carbineer only has 1 action targeting skills and 1 action bleed). This is true of every class - random pool shots take over. Further, action targeting specials are of limited usefulness. They are only really useful in solo hunting or all carbineer groups. Carbineer should be a class that can contribute in a group and extensive action targeting specials do not accomplish that goal.
(Please note that this is just my idea. Your ideas are equally valid so please post them)
Message Edited by novamarine on 12-19-2003 05:25 PM
Message Edited by novamarine on 12-19-2003 05:25 PM
How about we choose, as a profession, not not have it all be about maximizing damage. For instance, I like the approach of being a status effect class (though it does not perfectly match my personal vision for the game, that is fine).
For instance, why can't we perhaps move cripple shot up to a master shot that actually cripples the opponent? This might involve causing massive wounds, forcing the opponent to a kneeling position for 10 seconds, heavy action bleed or something that is rather unique and matches the description of the shot rather than yet another "damage" shot.
This goes further toward making our profession have complimentary roles to other professions rather than being just another gun on the field. How about some unique weapons that are required for certain special abilities? Perhaps we could have a stun carbine that allows us to stun and dizzyour opponents with the use of a special ability and weaponrather than stun just being a different category of damage. Thiswould make it worthwhile and understandable why some attacks require certain weapons and why there is a reason to have multiple weapons that makes some sense.
No fair that you can edit messages and we can't. Hahaha
I should also toss out the suggestion of a shot which slows our opponent's movement, makes them limp or something interesting.
Again... My wish is to be a crowd control/suppresion class. Keep our good single target attacks but lets start working on some more AoE specials.
One idea I had, as I thought about suppression fire 2 being a Area effect special, was to take some of those other specials from the ranged support tree.
An Area version of warning and threaten shot would be great in those hikes through dangerous territory. But you always run the risk of your shot missing and drawing their aggro anyway. Since these are simple specials put in in novice or a first tier box.
Thats all I have for now... more later. Read my crowd control post nova... and the other one like it.
We can already hit Random Pools, and in fact my favorite shot is ScatterShot2 for most purposes.
I like the idea of us being "state" kings, but I do not agree one of those sets of states is a large number of Random Pool Bleeds and Random Pool Burns.
I think the primary improvement that would make us better is the Dizzy status state. That alone would make us great, our KD might actually last a duration worthwhile. That or make our KD last longer, because as is, the KD only last about 2-3 seconds, even on creatures/NPCs. My only use for theChargeShot in PvP right now is to stop a runner. Perhaps since right now ChargeShot2 does nothing, they could make it a better version of ChargeShot1 that does in fact last longer, and making that skill useful to obtain.
CripplingShot is good and I like it. However, I don't mind it being moved to the master box and having some adjustments to give a true "master" skill.
Master Dragger, Drunken FriarThe problem I see is that you only get XP by doing damage. You can add 10 States to some mob, but if the others did most of the damage, you will be left in the dust as far as levelling. (Remember, not everyone is a Master Carbineer yet.)
I think the extra damage done to mobs should award XP to the one who performed the knockdown. If this cannot be done, then all we can ask for is to do more damage.
I would be happy with a skill that let us knock down every mob within a set radius (perhaps multiple levels of this skill with increasing radius), but did only 1 point of damage to each mob. This would keep it from being a solo skill while still allowing us to perform crowd control. Again, we still run into the XP issue here though.
-Raystonn
Greets ...
You have to start with the definition for Carbineer's ...
The definition used to be: We are the Machine Guns of SWG.
If that is true, our class needs to act more like a machine gun. what does a machine gun do? it fires a lot of rounds very, very fast in a large spray like pattern.
That sounds like AoE.
To that end ... and folks are not going to like this in other forums ... but I submit that Carbineer's should be the only ranged class that has AoE.
To balance things out ... Rifles should be the *most* accurate and hit the harderst ... Pistols should be the least accurate and fire the fastest. Machine guns should be in the middle of both of those. (Even though machine guns are faster in real life, we have to compromise somewhere else).
The Dev's will probably not like this idea ... but I certainly hope they will consider the idea.
I honestly can not think of anything else that the "middle" child has to distinguish itself ... in all other things we should be the middle of the road .. the balance between the extremes of pistols and rifles.
In Speed, Movement Penalties, Defense mods, Accuracy, Power, etc, etc we should be in the middle of pistols and rifles ... but outside of that ... AoE is the only thing that makes sense.
Rifles are sharp shooters, Pistols are from the hip quick shooters, and we should be the machine guns :-)
To be more detailed, I would like something like this:
Skill: Point Blank AE Knockdown -The Carbineer spins in a circle and lets loose like a madman, knocking down anything within a certain range (unless it resists.) Graphically speaking, shots should look like they are coming out at about the rate of a typical machine gun, extremely fast, but the shots are low-power. They knockdown, but don't do much of any damage at all (perhaps 1 point if damage is required.) This would still count as a single special from the perspective of HAM costs and powerup usage. The knockdown and the Carbineer's delay from using the special both last 10 seconds, ensuring he can do nothing else if he tries to keep them all on the ground.
Usage: The Carbineer runs into the center of a group of mobs that immediately attack him. He lays down an AE KD which lasts 10 seconds. The delay on the special is also 10 seconds, ensuring he can do nothing else if he wishes to keep them on the ground.The Carbineer can repeat this as many times as he wishes,but he can never hope to actually defeat the mobs solo using this skill.It is thus group-only. Some mobs will invariably resist the knockdown attempt each round,so it would be wise to have more than one crowd control expert in a group. This can be used to save the lives of group members if everyone starts getting slaughtered by multiple mobs.
Skill: Cone AE Knockdown -The Carbineer rotates in an arc, creating an AE cone with a greater max distance than the point blank version, but targetted in a certain general direction instead. The rest is exactly the same as the above Point Blank version.
Usage: The Carbineer's group is suddenly assaulted by a group of mobs coming from the same direction. He opens up with the Cone AE Knockdown and keeps most of them on the ground most of the time. The rest mactches the usage from the Point Blank version above.
Skill: Point Blank Taunt-The Carbineer spins in a circle and lets loose like a madman in a simialr fashion to the Point Blank Knockdown, except this one is designed to draw the attention of all the mobs. Graphically speaking, shots should look like they are coming out at about the rate of a typical machine gun, extremely fast, but the shots are designed to sting more than do damage and he is yelling and screaming taunts to draw attention. This is designed to try to protect those who should not be on the front line, such as medics or others in the group who are hurt.
Usage: The Carbineer sees mobs going after the weakest members of the group, such as the medic. He runs into the center of these mobs and lets loose some pain and taunts that causes them to switch targets and attack the Carbineer. Because of this, the medic is able to survive and the Carbineer is applauded for quick action in an emergency!
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Again, none of these does any more than a couple points of real damage. They cannot be used solo. We will need to receive XP from the use of these skills based on how many mobs they hit and other factors instead of damage done.
Comments?
-Raystonn
This is either AoE amoung a group of targets, or AoE to all HAM bars.
Our class could be distinguished by its ability to cause multiple problems at the same time either by hitting multiple targets with dots or damage, or affecting two or more pools at the same time with dots or damage. We are close with Action Shot 2, but action shot 2 just seems to hit another random target with an action shot 1. I would prefer action shot 2 attempt a bleed on 2 or more targets.
Another option would be to add more focus on mobility control in the same vein as our action shots. Not the ability to knockdown, but to slow down a fleeing or attacking opponent for a short period of time. Kinda of what legshot should do intuitively, shoot the leg and cause the target to limp for a few seconds. They can still attack/defend but their advancement would be slowed.
Basically I would like to see expansion of AoE in terms of multiple targets and/or multiple HAM bars, and skills that effect the targets mobility in addition to the targeted action attacks of which we have a few.
That should give some variety while at the same time giving the class focus.
Also on the topic of AoE, carbines that do AoE. That is the weapons themselves. The EE3, it is supposed to splash but it does not. I would like to see this bug fixed in addition to more carbines that do AoE.
personally, i love it nova... brilliant idea, i like the idea of overwhelming my opponents senses. i support your idea wholeheartedly.
although, i'd like scatter3 (if it gets put in) to do dizzy as well.