Carbineer Archive
Thread: Crowd Control Discussion
WTS wrote:
what about an area of effect warning shot? name it warningshot2 or something. that would be great for pve against group aggro but not overbalanced as AoE knockdown can be....
that seems like a good idea to me too... or, if not a true warningshot, then a shot that slows the movement of said targets. give the ranged guys a chance to put some distance between themselves and the targets.
to me, crowd control is about impairing the targets' attacks, movement, and defenses. To that end, I'd propose attacks that reduce movement speed, reduce ranged and melee defenses, and impose states like blind, stun, and intimidation. It doesn't have to be a knockdown to be a valuable crowd control.
- Give us an area attack that delays the enemy's specials.
- Give us a move that can push back the enemy.
- Give us something that motivates the enemy to retreat orstay in place. Perhaps, a special that can freeze opponents in their place for a period of time. Perhaps a "/freezeshot" or something.
In conclusion, we need moves that can control the enemy's movements and actions in order to be "crowd control". /chargeshot2 is not enough.
If I had it my way, Carbineers would not be 'crowd control', but specialize further in the use of a carbines as far as taking down an enemy and killing them as quickly as possible, but this is the direction the devs want to take it in, then it shouldbe better at what it will be, other thanwhat itshould be.
Message Edited by Rabidmutt on 02-03-2004 04:19 PM
Crowd control implies area effect de-buffs and snares.
Currently the only REAL debuffs/snares in the game are posture changes stacked with the dizzy effect. This essentially takes someone out of the fight without killing them. Posture Changes are nearly useless without the dizzy or stun effect stacked with them.
Some alternative "De-Buff" and "Snare" ideas
these can be vs a single target or be aoe for "crowd control")
- Slow effect: This doubles or triples the recycle rate of the victims attacks and lasts for maybe 5-10 seconds. This does not put anyone on thier back, nor does it cause them to be "defenseless" but it causes them to be less effective, and thus CONTROLLED.
-Inaccuracy effect: This decreases the victims chances to hit by 50% and lasts for 5-10 seconds. This does not kill the victim, nor does it render them unable to move, not does it render them "helpless", but it does make them ineffective and CONTROLLED.
-Low damage effect: This would set the attackers weapon damage to its minimum for the duration of the effect. Thus a weapon which did 12-800 damage would be set at 12 as its damage for the effects duration. This effect would last for 5-10 seconds. This like my other suggestions does not kill the victim, it just makes then ineffective.
-Movement penalty: This slows the targets move rate by half and lasts for 5-10 seconds. This type of effect would be especially useful against monsters and melee class players. This does not render the victim "helpless" or unable to attack, but buys the user time to move/ kite the victim or ready other attacks. It could also be used to chase down fleeing enemies.
-Snare effect: This would render the victim immobile for 5-10 seconds. This would work similarly to the movement penalty described above.
-Knock Back effect: This would knock victims maybe 20m away from the user. This could be used to corral enemies, to keep enemies at bay, to knock melee players away from fallen friends etc. Again not a battle winning special, but good for controlling and disorienting enemies.
-No specials effect: This would render the victim unable to do any special attack or special action including healing, leaving them to rely upon thier default attack. This would last for 5-10 seconds.
-Increased ham costs effect: This would double or triple the costs of any specials the victim used during the duration of the effect. This would again not kill anyone, but would certainly limit the number of specials they could do.
-Area effect Bleed: A low damage "nagging" type of a special that would work in the same manner as the current bleeds only it would effect a group.
The problem with the current system is that there is only 1 way to control enemies and that is by knocking them down over and over, or knocking them down and making them dizzy. I would not be surprised if they removed the "dizzy" effect from the game entirely.
This would be a great way to reinvigorate the supposed advantage of action targetting now that HAM costs are very well distributed across the different HAM bars.
well, i don't want us to be the pure crowd control class of SWG. not at all.
i prefer the way we are set up now, a mix between crowd control and damage dealing. fix our specials, etc, and i think we will be perfect.
I suggest they follow the pattern shadowbane set: "stuns" (knockdowns here) are extremely limited both in duration and by a timer, and the only other form of CC usable on players is a snare. Some attacks could still have a stronger CC usable on mobs, I suppose.
-Jeff
How about 2 types, a single target shot, and an AoE version, that slows the target's speed or makes them walk for say 5-10 seconds? That would provide excellent crowd control. If you're looking for ranged crowd control, why not an AoE attack that blinds the target? Not like full auto's blind, which occurs around 10% of the time, but an attack focused on causing this status, that would cause it on the target oftenif they don't havethe right defensive modifiers.
As far as crowd control for both types, an AoE attack that suspends an opponents action bars, making them unspendable and unhealable (by player or other medics) for 10 seconds. It could be considered some type of leg attack, and allow the action bar of an opponent to be rendered useless for 10 seconds, except to be attacked. Currently there is not much reasoning behind attacking an opponents action in PvP a majority of the time at the higher levels, this would allow us to make it a weakness.
For those wondering why it's unhealable for 10 seconds, with health being the #1 target of any non HAM associated attack, and mind already unhealable, this would let us put action in the middle ground finally, and turn it into a strength for us. It could be called a leg wound or something, to tell why the doctor is unable to patch it up immediately.
The special that would benefit the most from this would probably be wild shot 1/2, since we have so many other specials that can stun. An AoE intimidate would allow us to survive a little longer since the entire group will be hitting us for less damage and perhaps less often as well. Our accuracy problems would almost disappear when at ideal range and our other status effects will get applied sooner.
For those that don't know, intimidate is what you need to get around a defense stack since it negates pretty much all of their defenses and makes them hittable again once intimidate sticks.
Lowering a crowds damage output and making them easier to hit sounds like crowd control to me.
My thought on crowd control abilities is to make their effects similar to those in other MMOs. For example, when you mez a group of mobs in EQ, they stay out of the fight as long as you leave them alone after mezzing them. If you attack them, the mez breaks. It would be easy to move these kind of things to specials in SWG.
We could have special 'stun' or 'dizzy' effects that remove a mob or npc from combat unless they are attacked again. This would give us crowd control without making any one mob soloable from just chaining KD or PC moves. We could also have 'limited KD' effects to use in PvP, whereas if you attack a player after they have been knocked down, they get right back up again, once more eliminating the problem of spamming specials.
These ideas rock. I'll add my two cents to each one...
Skinktor wrote:
- Slow effect: This would be hard to do. Maybe like aweapon speed stat debuff, but how would you get it to stick? Would it apply to the weapon the target is holding? Or would it check for all weapons the target it certified for and apply itself to those stats? It's a good idea, but probably too complicated.
-Inaccuracy effect: This can be done as a "Blind" state.Pretty effective, in my experience.
-Low damage effect: This can be done as an "Intimidated" state. That would rule.
-Movement penalty/Snare effect: Brawler elites would really hate this one.
-Knock Back effect: This could save lives. Even if it did minimal damage, like a /warningshot, it could delay an encroaching deathblower long enough for a medic to reach an incapped teammate or something. I love the idea of utility specials like this.
-No specials effect: This could be achieved by putting the target in an involuntary "tumbling" state. "Tumbling" is supposed to give you a defensive bonus, so it wouldn't render the target completely helpless.
-Increased ham costs effect: Not sure how this would be accomplished, but I like the idea! Give the targeta taste of what it's like to be a Carbineer.
-Area effect Bleed: Like /actionshot2, butunbroken?
I'd use it.
Message Edited by Whitus on 02-04-2004 03:03 AM