Carbineer Archive
Thread: Our Question
novamarine wrote:
Pistoleers specials are not as broken as many claim. Several of those "broken" specials have qualifiers on them like only good at master and only good with a 2.0 pistol. Come on. If I apply those standards to many of the carbineer specials then they would all be broken as well.
You have defenses. This should be one of your primary strengths. State defenses, high dodge modifier, and you should be given a bit more melee/ranged. In fact, I'd suggest you get melee mitigation along with ranged mitigation.
You have one of the largest (can't remember if pistols or rifles has more) amounts of damage types at your disposal.
After the combat balance, you're going to be the fastest, both in terms of movement speed and firing speed. Accuracy mods will also be more exaggerated than they are now, so you will have a much higher point-blank mod in comparison to riflemen and carbineers.
Stopping Shot is definitely not useless. As most people can tell you, non-targeted specials don't attack all three pools evenly, it's more of a weighted average. With a 5x multiplier vs. 3x on Health2, I think you'll probably come out on the advantageous side if SS is capped and you're targeting health. If not, SS should be tweaked until it does enough damage to outdo healthshot. And with the upcoming nerf to targeted damage, I think SS will become even better for ya.
You have a powerful Cone shot, and once the specials are fixed, you will have a powerful AE attack.
IMO, pistoleer's strengths should be: variety of damage types, defenses (all kinds), point blank accuracy, and AE attacks (think someone spinning around in a circle firing his pistol at everyone in the radius).
If you start adding a bunch of status effects, you're taking away carbineer's only selling point. If you add in high damage/high AP, you're taking away what should be rifleman's strongest selling point (and I trust will be, after rebalance).
Message Edited by ScarletPhoenix on 06-17-2004 01:01 AM
PadreBook wrote:
novamarine wrote:
Pistoleers specials are not as broken as many claim. Several of those "broken" specials have qualifiers on them like only good at master and only good with a 2.0 pistol. Come on. If I apply those standards to many of the carbineer specials then they would all be broken as well.
There is nothing special about any outside of those 3 I mentioned. Yeah, stopping shot does more, but it's not area effect (cone). As for the ability to take a creature or npc down healthshot2 is all you need as it does its lessor multiple to the health pool on every attack, thus nullifying the higher damage multipler of the other working shot--Stopping Shot. And you need to be using below speed 2.0 pistols at master for several of the shots. So what do you allow pistoleers? No state, no area, no high damage/high ap, so that leaves what?
A master carbineerneeds to be using speed-sliced carbines that are already fast in order to use certain carbineer specials, so what is your point? Carbineers have learned to adapt specials to the situation. I have a master pistoleer and stopping shot is very useful (yes even with out BH). The problem is pistoleers dont seem to want situational specials. They want "I win" specials so that can just spam any one of their specials and the target dies. You fully understand not every special can be the best right?
Sometimes you have to make decisions about which specials to use. I don't even understand the logic behind the Pistoleer's complaints. Pistoleers complain they have specials that are only useful in certain situations then complain they need more specials. New or fixed specials will very likely only be good in certain situations (you cant have 10 "best" specials) and they will probably start complaining all over again.
I "allow" pistoleers great melee defense, a very cool melee ranged KD, awesome state defenses and dodge. In case you haven't noticed, defenses now rule SWG and pistoleer has great defenses. A class cannot be judged by damage alone or fencers with their uber defenses would not be one of the most powerful classes right now.
Unfortunately this argument cannot be won because it is the same as the "is the glass half-full or the glass half-empty." Pistoleers only see their class as half-empty rather than embrace what is great. Nothing the Devs do will change them fromhalf-empty to half-full people. Basically what I am saying is that when Pistoleer is fixed, none of the Pistoleers are going to be happy because their definition of broken is so extreme there is no way for the Devs to make them happy.
jfang wrote:
Wow, once you open a can of worms... If nothing else I liked reading what others thought of pistoleers though.
Sorry for bringing the subject of pistoleers up though, everybody.
/bonk jfang
The Pistoleers often cry the sob story but a few of us around have been Pistoleers AND Carbineers and WE don't buy that sob story for one second.....
Message Edited by TAfirehawk on 06-17-2004 09:49 AM
TAfirehawk wrote:
/bonk jfang
The Pistoleers often cry the sob story but a few of us around have been Pistoleers AND Carbineers and WE don't buy that sob story for one second.....
Message Edited by TAfirehawk on 06-17-2004 09:49 AM
novamarine wrote:
Point taken...
But believe it or not I find it relevant. If the Devs fix whatsome of the thingsPistoleers feel is wrong (specifically their complaints about damage only specials), then by their standards we have much to more to complain about than we currently are. So, if that happens, I will be quick to claim the same problems in Carbineer.
So by extension, if everybody is broken, nobody has a basis to complain. Is that why tailor's haven't had their necklaces fixed, why your TKM-novice scout can harvest faster than a master ranger, and why Pikemen's best (and some would argue only good) weaponis from an enemy they can't even damage.
Hmm... I'm not sure I like that implication...
jfang wrote:
Hmm... I'm not sure I like that implication...
Message Edited by novamarine on 06-17-2004 11:28 AM
novamarine wrote:
Pistoleers specials are not as broken as many claim. Several of those "broken" specials have qualifiers on them like only good at master and only good with a 2.0 pistol. Come on. If I apply those standards to many of the carbineer specials then they would all be broken as well.
Pistoleers are not as broken as they think they are. I was a master gunfighter , I know this.
Unfortunatley they think they have a bunch of broken specials. Multitargetpistolshot does work, I have Incapped 5 people at the same time, Pointblank area 2 is broken but is still usefull because of a quick reload time and excellent damage modifier,; better than fan and has a to hit modifier at pointblank. ( I used to spam this with my 2.8 Dx2, mega damage edition, at the speed cap)
Pistoleer has problems because all they think they can do is fanshot or stopping shot, Pistol melee defense 2 has a awesome damage multiplier. The list goes on and on, and the pistol forums are horrible! The have some broken shots , disarming shot 1& 2, anda difficult time against armored opponents, and yet you see people posting thier desire for HOLSTERS! When I was a pistoleer I had a SR combat pistol with a min damage of 180, yet all they can seem think is Republican and geno-pistol, and Fwg5 for the real old school guys.
Everytime I hear a pistoleer cry, I wince!
novamarine wrote:Point taken...But believe it or not I find it relevant. If the Devs fix whatsome of the thingsPistoleers feel is wrong (specifically their complaints about damage only specials), then by their standards we have much to more to complain about than we currently are. So, if that happens, I will be quick to claim the same problems in Carbineer.
Let me be clear, Carbineer needs more love than Pistoleer. I'm sorry if that wasn't clear before. I was just trying to elaborate on the Pistoleer side from a more objective viewpoint. The fact remains that with/without skilltapes, master/nonmaster a pistoleer is at most going to use four shots (stopping shot for helping a group keep loot rights, I had forgot about that use, sorry), period. No comments about situational use or the like are relevant--you use Healthshot2 95%+ of the time. One shot is the entire profession.
As for Pistoleer having speed/defenses as their thing, a pistoleer needs a substantial number of speed tapes to hit the same speed cap as a Rifleman does now (with much faster pistols too), so that means if that is the Pistol's focus in the future other weapons/professions will have to be made SLOWER including possibly CARBINEER (remember the dev's don't think straight for the most part). Sorry Carbineer does NOT need to be any slower, so there needs to be some realization that what happens in relation to other professions will effect Carbineer.
Padre
novamarine wrote:
jfang wrote:Hmm... I'm not sure I like that implication...
You dragged me back in. Now I have to explain. There are several examples but I will pick one.Pistoleers state Stoppingshot is broken. Stoppingshot is a slow heavy damage shot and can be compared most directly with crippleshot. Pistoleers complain that stoppingshot is broken because in order to use it you need fast pistols and/or extra speed. Pistoleers are looking at everything from DPS. If something is less DPS than another shot and does only damage (no states) it is broken to them. This condition applies to several carbineer specials including crippleshot and burstshot1.I personally disagree with that logic for declaring a special broken since there are times when DPS alone does not decide if a special is useful even ifit is damage-only. For example, if a target has a sliver a life left, a high damage shot is your best option to kill. The speed doesn't matter since the target dies. Another example is when targets are knocked down. You have a 5 second window in which to apply shots. The best combo on a KDed target is 1-2 fast firing specials followed by a heavy hitter. Reload after the KD but get the huge damage bonus off the bigger hitters while they are down. These subtilties of situational specials are lost on many players and as a result they just see DPS DPS DPS and then turn around complaining all their specials are broken.I want to cut this short, but I hope you can see that high damage/slow reload specials are not fundamentaly broken just because their DPS is not the best DPS special. Specials are tools. They are not I win buttons.Message Edited by novamarine on 06-17-2004 11:28 AM
Of course Pistoleers look at everything from DPS--the profession is NOT ALLOWED ANY STATE SHOTS--so DPS is all that's left.
Padre