Carbineer Archive

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Sylow wrote:

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Craxus wrote:

You'd think so, but I fear it won't matter much. Tanks don't hide. They'll run after you.

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Brave. But not smart. The system of "tank" works pretty fine in PvE but since in ever saw an NPC doing some kiting, the whole conversation is about PvP. Due to the fact that players choose their targets themselves and the in-game mechanisms of pulling agro don't work, the whole concept of "tanks" goes to nothing. (Unless you have absolutely superior tell-based taunting skills or can convince the enemy that they'll definitely loose the fight if they don't remove you from the scene right away...)

So better don't see yourself as a tank ina scenario with fighting over 50 meters and more, see yourself as a specialist for a specific combat task. As the whole "tank" concept only makes sense in teams, you just have to redefine your role in a team, in melee terrain you cover the team, as your ranged people will have a significant problem when sprung by melee fighters. (There you'll even to some degree be the tank again... who to take down, the rifleman who can't hurt you, or the swordsman who'll finish you off in no time if you don't remove him from the scene first?) In more open terrain, you'll have to be clever, use any available cover and make your way to the enemy without being taken down... your ranged teammates have to keep the enemy busy, so you can approach unseen. (Or stay with your team and cover them, if the enemy melee fighters have a similar plan about your ranged personel.)

I can't say if the system will work, will require a good deal of playtesting, but when properly balanced it should work out fine.

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See I hear you but I PvP against really good Defense stackers. It the battle takes about an hour. Seriously they are never knocked down, most of them have good defense against posture change, so they just let you kite them and spam lunge. They are tanks, since I can't hit there mind pool the ones with novice medical can heal quickly. Terrian doesn't matter to them they just wait to over take you. I see all you points, Im just hoping we don't develop the same problems we have now, just wrapped in a different package.

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See I hear you but I PvP against really good Defense stackers.

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From all announcements and statements you can conclude that exactly that's a thing of history soon. The stacker templates will be gone. Of course, i personally expect some other templates in the future, if defenses don't stack any more, numerous people will stack for maximum flexibility, maximum damage potential or whatever comes to mind... the future will tell, we can't say yet.

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Im just hoping we don't develop the same problems we have now, just wrapped in a different package.

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We have to wait and see... and stay optimistic.

Message Edited by bizondele on 03-21-2005 09:57 AM

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Craxus wrote:

But, don't you find kiting...."lame". I weant it to go away. I want my fight to be a tactical game played in a 64 meter arena, not a site seeing tour between theed and keren. (1)

I think it should be something. Like you face off at 64 meters, and you try to get up close and personal if your melee, and if your a ranged profession you make sure that doesn't happen. BUT! not by running 3/4 of the planet but by your special attacks. (2)

I think this kind off fight would ensure to things:

1. Everybody will want a ranged profession.

2. Melee will still be very much a viable attack method. (3)

Think about it your a MC/TKM. You knock your enemy down using charge shot, as he tries to get up you notice he's wearing recon armor. SO you bust out your trusty VK and close the gap before he gets up and proceed to rearrange his nose. (4)

Even if he gets you off him.... he should only want to back up to the ideal range of his weapons, not run around the planet.

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Sorry for the wierd setup, I was trying to arrange it in a way not to look like a flame.

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Kakherot wrote:

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Craxus wrote:

But, don't you find kiting...."lame". I weant it to go away. I want my fight to be a tactical game played in a 64 meter arena, not a site seeing tour between theed and keren. (1)

I think it should be something. Like you face off at 64 meters, and you try to get up close and personal if your melee, and if your a ranged profession you make sure that doesn't happen. BUT! not by running 3/4 of the planet but by your special attacks. (2)

I think this kind off fight would ensure to things:

1. Everybody will want a ranged profession.

2. Melee will still be very much a viable attack method. (3)

Think about it your a MC/TKM. You knock your enemy down using charge shot, as he tries to get up you notice he's wearing recon armor. SO you bust out your trusty VK and close the gap before he gets up and proceed to rearrange his nose. (4)

Even if he gets you off him.... he should only want to back up to the ideal range of his weapons, not run around the planet.

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Sorry for the wierd setup, I was trying to arrange it in a way not to look like a flame.

(1) How many fights with a TKM leave the immediate area? Not many, their ability to KD surpasses our own. Ranged is just that, ranged. We shoot from a distance,and close range sucks.

(2) Then how do you propose? High probability of KD? That got us nerfed to begin with. Carb's used to be the bomb before SOE considered posture control "un-fun" (retards). That really sucks being as that's kind of what we do (I'm sure you noticed the lack of melee defense and other status resists). Carb was designed to control your opponent. On the flip side, being on your back for the entire length of a match will piss you off. And as far as facing off at 64 meters, thatnever happens. It's always up close, especially with melee. I understand if you think it sucks, but there's honestly not a way to persuade a ranged profession to not move during a fire-fight that would make the fight enjoyable for both parties.

(3) Melee always has, and always will, be a viable attack method. But so what if it's not? Maybe it will make up for the year and a half of torment and BS every ranged profession has had to deal with? Don't get me wrong, I'm not for tilting the balance in any one-class' favor. I'm all for different classes, and different attack types. That's one reason why I've been very vocal about the catastophe of the jedi revamp (hehe, one * that why don't ya you FS bums). But the way I see it (as in, my predictions for the cu/rb), is that melee will be very tough, and very defensive, while ranged will be strong, and offensive. That way, melee can tank but not solo, and ranged will have a use other than playing decoy when the TK's chestplate breaks.

(4) You're arguing with the assumption of a double combat mastery. That's not going to always be the case. There will be those that get amelee profession and CM, or Doc. There will be those that get CH and carbs. Or ranger and rifleman. Or Architect and pikeman. BH and commando. This is meant to be balanced for them as well.

I see your point, and to a small extent, agree with you. I too would love to just sit here, click a few times, move a little to get a better angle. But without tilting the balance, I just don't see a way to do it.

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1. Actually very often. especial when they fight me. I have an easy time forcing them to move due to my terrian neg. and longer burst run. They either chase me or be annoyed for an hour.

2. Running backwards shooting your gun for 2km is not fun, for either party. Getting KD, is fun for one party. High probablity of KD would work. Hate to tell you this but in most cases PVP is fun for the Winner and not so fun for the Loser. Its more fun when you win. If you get KD or have you posture change deal with it. I have to deal with a dancer having more defense than my either BH gives me. I have to deal with the fact the average melee weapon has a hire DPS than any of my stock carbines. BUT the best way to control it would be to not allow specials while moving. Range should be King. You should want to start your fight from farthest away you can be.

3. Im not argueing about the if it should be viable or not. What I am saying is Melee Mastery should be a supplement to your template not the end all be all.

4. In the CU it would not be adviceable to be a Melee template with anything other than combat skills and PVP because your health will be deminished. My example shows how it would be viable. Going in to combat after the revamp with only one mastery will be sucide. Wioth the execption of CH...of course.

Message Edited by Craxus on 03-21-2005 12:23 PM

i have no problems kiting and im not even an avid pvp'r

even standing still one day i was owning my stacker friend and i wasnt wearing armor. I can imagine if i had used some mind dots :/

killing ranged is actually much harder for me because they actually get to hit me.Well they hit me until they are on the floor that is

Kiting is only common sence. Where do you see a guy with a gun running up to a guy with a stick before he shoots them. Where do you see all these immersive sceens where guys with sticks even run at guys with guns?? And dont come back with kung fu movies or the terminator .... You just dont bring a knife to a gun fight. Who in their right mind would be trying to kill someone by shooting them and allow them to get close enough to beat them with a stick? Kiteing is common sence and it works both ways. Remember in mele's defence Line Of Sight will be on and that could make a big diffrence if you use it right.

Message Edited by Quandry on 03-21-2005 07:46 PM

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TAfirehawk wrote:

I suggest you both stop, because neither of you have a freaking clue what is coming.....I do, but can't say

Why worry about things that aren't even decided yet.....like the balance between melee and ranged.....

If you have worthwhile comments on the CU Update Doc, then post it in the other thread, otherwise end the rudeness on both sides here.

*wishes for the LOCK THREAD button*

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Im an not trying to assume what is coming. I just had something I did not like: KITING for half a planet. I decide to share that opinion with others and was attacked for it. I never accused anyone of anything. I pointed out that my subjective opinion was being rudely discarded in favor of another's. That is all. I don't see why I can't defend what I feel is an issue. If everyone but me feels prefectly comfortable hitting their Number Lock key and spamming their favorite attack. I don't see what I have to say as assumption( with execption to the health) or disrespectful to SOE or anyother persons opinion. I merely stated mine.

As to your request to post in the CU doc thread. Well this thread has nothing to do with CU doc more of a wish from a Master Carbineer.

I see it pointless to have boards if I am not allowed to express my opinion on a subject basically because it does not conform to what SOE has plan or what a couple of other people like.

Again, I simple wish that even range combat had more of a arena feel to it instead of a long distance marathon. If I seemed ofensive I apologize, but it is my feeling that I never attacked anyones ideas I just defended my own.

Sorry, to disagree with you again, but if we need a thread lock over someones opinion that they do not like kiting and the counter points, then all productive has been lost on these boards. That is merely my opinion, and apologies all around for anyone who happens to find it offensive. I will not because of the sensitivity this issue has developed attempt to respond to Quandry. Sorry, for having an opinion.

Message Edited by Craxus on 03-21-2005 06:13 PM

Message Edited by Craxus on 03-21-2005 06:33 PM

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Craxus wrote:

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TAfirehawk wrote:

I suggest you both stop, because neither of you have a freaking clue what is coming.....I do, but can't say

Why worry about things that aren't even decided yet.....like the balance between melee and ranged.....

If you have worthwhile comments on the CU Update Doc, then post it in the other thread, otherwise end the rudeness on both sides here.

*wishes for the LOCK THREAD button*

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Im an not trying to assume what is coming. I just had something I did not like: KITING for half a planet. I decide to share that opinion with others and was attacked for it. I never accused anyone of anything. I pointed out that my subjective opinion was being rudely discarded in favor of anothers. That is all. I don't see why I can't defend what I feel is an issue. If everyone but me feels prefectly comfortable hitting there Number Lock key and spamming their favorite attack. I don't see what I have to say as assumption( with execption to the health) or disrespectful to SOE or anyother persons opinion. I merely stated mine.

As to your request to post in the CU doc thread. Well this thread has nothing to do with CU doc more of a wish from a Master Carbineer.

I see it pointless to have boards if I am not allowed to express my opinion on a subject basically because it does not conform to what SOE has plan or what a couple of other people like.

Again, I simple wish that even range combat had more of a arena feel to it instead of a long distance marathon. If I seemed ofensive I apologize, but it is my feeling that I never attacked anyones ideas I just defended my own.

Sorry, to disagree with you again, but if we need a thread lock over someones opinion that they do not like kiting and the counter points, then all productive has been lost on these boards. That is merely my opinion, and apologies all around for anyone who happens to find it offensive. I will not because of the sensitivity this issue has developed attempt to respond to Quandry. Sorry, for having an opinion.

Message Edited by Craxus on 03-21-2005 06:13 PM

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I just saw this "discussion" going in a tailspin quickly.....you expressed your opinion already and there is no need to argue for the sake of arguing and adding fuel to the fire.

I agree with you on the running halfway across the planet, of which I refuse to do. I would rather /clone than do that

And thiscould get locked for breaking The Seven Daily Rules, not EVER for opinions.....you both were/are too emotional on a topic which is pure speculation....I thought it prudent to strongly post in here to keep the discussion from getting out of hand and the thread totally deleted.

Your thread title seems to draw itself to the CU, hence my request for you to get your wishes in that thread so I can send just one thread to Tiggs.

And don't ever assume by "magically" reading between the lines in my post that I am keeping people from expressing their opinions, that is quite insulting that you would assume such a thing. I quite clearly said end the rudeness by both people, not end the opinions. It clearly looked like things were becoming personal, and with this reply you wrote me I was right....I would rather have you get upset with me than another poster

Message Edited by Craxus on 03-21-2005 06:45 PM