Carbineer Archive
Thread: The Problem with Rifleman from a Carbineer
XaverriJade7
Mon Aug 09, 2004 10:32 pm
#14
We really,really don't need another of these threads
Read the 5 others on the first 2 pages before you thinkyouhave all the answers. We know the speed equation is messed up. Do you know that both Carbineer and Pistoleer are broken? You cannot compare either of them to Rifleman(since it works). Personally, I don't care if they toned down the speed at Master from +90 to +80 or whatever- Anything to get the FOTMs to jump elsewhere until the revamp(That's what really bothers you since less than 1% of players were Riflemen before armor and buffs got so powerful 
). Armor and buffs are your problem with us. Or were you thinking Rifleman was overpowered 8 months ago? We haven't changed any more than Carbineer has. Armor and buffs have. We want that fixed just as much as you do. Really. 
Read the 5 others on the first 2 pages before you thinkyouhave all the answers. We know the speed equation is messed up. Do you know that both Carbineer and Pistoleer are broken? You cannot compare either of them to Rifleman(since it works). Personally, I don't care if they toned down the speed at Master from +90 to +80 or whatever- Anything to get the FOTMs to jump elsewhere until the revamp(That's what really bothers you since less than 1% of players were Riflemen before armor and buffs got so powerful ). Armor and buffs are your problem with us. Or were you thinking Rifleman was overpowered 8 months ago? We haven't changed any more than Carbineer has. Armor and buffs have. We want that fixed just as much as you do. Really. Don't bother saving Mind damage for later. Talk about it now. This junk should be kept in as few threads as possible so we don't have 'nerf Rifleman' threads all over our forum. How many people that picked up Rifleman just to be 'Uber' do you think read this forum on a regular basis? Sheesh. Mind heals(in some form)will be made available far moreso than they are now after the revamp. I'm very sorry that isn't working for you right now, but that's the Devs' problem. Have the decency not to expect us get anything accomplished for you- we aren't Devs. Not to mention the fact that we don't even have a Correspondent to speak for us. 
DPS wouldn't have been brought up in your basis for why we're 'overpowered' had you read any one of the other threads on this topic. You do realize that is the worstway to 'balance' the classes? Rifleman is the most powerful in terms of damage. However, we do pay a price- and that is in both melee defense and status defenses. If they get within range, any melee class will beat a Rifleman. If using specials thoughtfully, most ranged classes should beat a Rifleman. Don't like our speed? It can only be gotten through tapes. The level armor and buffs have gotten to make that much, much harder than it should be though. I apologize for that though there is nothing that can be done right now.
As for your equations: I was surprised at the damage level you chose for Carbines. I didn't know they were quite that good. A very good T-21 will have slightly higher minimum damage, but comparable maximum damage(though lower in most cases). Sure it's AP3, but that doesn't mean a thing to unarmored targets. People always assume that wearing armor is the smarter option when it is not. Why even use a T-21 in PvP when you have 80% composite and 40%+(?) PSGs readily available. As for PvE, why can't Riflemen be the 'damage dealers'? Pistoleers won't doing much damage, but they will be receiving far less than any other ranged class as well and keeping the mobs off the other classes as much as possible. Carbineers will be less defended than Pistoleers and not quite as damaging as Riflemen, but if I were using a Carbine, I'd be focusing more on my specials to land status effects so my team can survive longer and better take out the target.
Each class must have a role. If you 'balance' everything in terms of DPS, every class in now the same old boring thing with different looking guns and different titles. Should that happen, you can expect many people(at those that like a challenge and strategy when fighting) to either quit or retire to crafting professions.
Additional note: With the speed of most rifles and the +90 rifle speed from MR, you will shoot our best special every 2.5 seconds instead of every 1.0 seconds. Want to nerf tapes? Go for it- I don't care. Theycan overpower a lot of things forwhomever isdiligent enough to gather them.
Please drop the attitude that something has to be 'brought down' to create a balance when the alternative of fixing, or 'bringing up', other professions is even better. Thanks
T-Bone78
Mon Aug 09, 2004 10:37 pm
#15
It used to be fine didn't notice until now. Maybe i'll become a forum post griefer 
Nice post BTW.
Edit- I checked my other posts they are fine. I think it's someone else in the thread.
Message Edited by T-Bone78 on 08-09-2004 11:40 PM
XaverriJade7
Mon Aug 09, 2004 10:45 pm
#16
Thanks And thank youfor checking anyways- Sorry if it isn't yours. That really makes things hard to read though. (To people in general)If you've replied to this, will you please check your post and fix it if it's yours? Sorry to be a pest , and thanks.
And thank youfor checking anyways- Sorry if it isn't yours. That really makes things hard to read though. (To people in general)If you've replied to this, will you please check your post and fix it if it's yours? Sorry to be a pest , and thanks.
Galjoss
Tue Aug 10, 2004 3:34 am
#17
So what do you suggest? Rifles should be slowed down so the damage per second is the same as carbineer and pistoleer? but then carbineer's have a lot of status attacks that riflemen and pistoleers have so pistoleers and riflemen should be given better status effect and then to balance things further both carbineer and riflemen should get the status defences of pistoleer to make sure that the ranged proffessions are balanced. Then we would have 3 'balanced' proffessions that differ only in graphics and weapons and the game would be quite boring.
The term balance implies that there are differences that compensate for each other, each proffession should have its strengths and weaknessess, Riflemans strength is the damage it deals, its weaknesses are be its defence and accuracy up close and while moving. Rifleman is slightly overpowered, but not because of the damage it deals, the main overpowered aspect of rifleman is our accuracy while moving, there is no way you should be able to hit anything more than 50% of the time while running holding a T21, and we are a little to accurate up close. I think our damage is fine, we should outdamage carbineer and pistoleer as that is our forte.
Bermag
Tue Aug 10, 2004 3:51 am
#18
Prices on skill tapes is not relevant to how to get speed cap. It is demand and supply. There are noit more carbine tapes than rifle but the rifle tapes are in much higher demand -> higher price.
Not a useful comparison of weapons. Better compare laser carbine to laser rifle. Take the same amount of tissues and have same AP. T21 has PA3 so 25% higher damage.
Anyway, I think that the old idea of:
Pistoleer - High speed, low damage, good defense
Rifleman - Low speed, high damage, low defense
Carbineer - medium speed, medium damage, medium defense and better state attacks
Is very good. Giving each profession an advantage over another. But the speed formula has messed this up. I don't think that rifleman should have a higher speed cap but that weapon speed should always be improtant. The only ranged profession where weapon speed really matters is Carbines. A Laser Carbine w/o enhancement (krayt and ff stocks) is 3.5 speed on my server. Above the speed cap even if you have +25 speed. With rifles you can fire any weapon at speed cap no matter the speed on the rifle. I thinkt his is wrong, speed on weapons should always be a factor.
Devs have said something like that "slow weapon will always be slow". if devs make a differnet speed cap for rifles (for example 3 sec) that would be "fast weapon will always be slow". Totally wrong IMO.
Vaelorn
Tue Aug 10, 2004 5:56 am
#19
I have a few characters. One is a TKM/Smuggler/Pistoleer template. The other is a CH/Rifleman/Scout template. I will say this here and now. A weapon with 7.0+ speed should NEVER EVER fire as fast as a weapon with 1.8- speed. Period. Under ANY circumstance. The attack speed calculations in SWG are completely dysfunctional, to the point of being utterly broken.
The whole point of Pistoleers was to fire faster than anyone else, but do the smallest amount of damage. Well, they got the damage part right, since Pistoleers never get any weapons better than AP1, and their damage is very very low per shot. However, it simply does not make any sense at all for that Rifleman with his 8.2spd T-21 rifle to be throwing out Headshot 3 at the same rate of fire as a Pistoleer using a 1.8spd DX2 with Body Shot 3. That rifle is easily 4 times slower than the pistol, so if the players had the same speed mods the rifle should STILL be 4 times slower than the pistol, not the same speed. What's worse is that the Rifleman profession gets much more speed mod skillthan the Pistoleer does!
Waste93
Tue Aug 10, 2004 7:41 am
#20
Haywood wrote:
Gentleman if you do not think that your profession is seriously over powered then there is a problem.
Here is the very simple reason. THE SPEED EQUATION. We all know that the development team made a serious of poor choices when designing this game and did not listen fully to the BETA testers, if they did this game would comming out next month with JTL 4-5 months later.
If all the ranged professions are able to hit the speed cap of one shot per second how do you think it is balanced.
If I have the best Pistol (AP0) 1.0 speed, 200-500 damage what is my DPS.
If I have the best Laser Carbine (AP2) 1.0 speed 100-750 damage what is my DPS
If I have the best T21 (AP3) 1.0 speed ( feel free to put in your ammount here ) what is my DPS
I hope you can see the problem. Many people have asked for the RIFLEMAN profession to be SLOWER, either with a speed cap or an adjustment to the speed mods given for the profession. What suprises me the most is the RIFLEMAN community wants there damage increased if their speed is lowered.
Personally as a former Master Pistoleer, current Master Carbine, and a former Rifeman (did not master) I can say that the speed of Pistol is perfect. Speed of carbine is fair (+60 at master and with speed tapes a +85 will allowa Carbineer to hti the 1 second speed cap with a 2.8 second or faster weapon. The problem with Rifleman is you are able to get to +100 speed with only a few tapes, and for those that do not understand the speed equation, once you hit +100 speed you can fire any weapon you are certified to use at 1 second regardless of the speed of the weapon. So if you have a T-21 at 15 speed or +1000 speed you will still shoot at 1 second.
Please let me know how you think that your profession is not overpowered and I am not even discussing MIND damage. I will hold that one for later.
Haywood,
Good to see a non-rant "riflemen are overpowered" thread for a change. Five stars just for that.
As for the rest. Your mistake is in assuming that DPS should be the same. It isn't. There are three areas for combat professions. They are offense, defense, and combat multipliers. Combat multipliers are state effects, AoE, DoTs, and the like. So you break down the professions based on if they are high, low, or medium in those three areas.
Rifleman would be high offense, mid combat multipliers, and low defenses.
Pistoleer should be high defense, mid comb multipliers, low offense.
Carbineers should be high combat multipliers, mid offense, low defense.
That's the general breakdown. The professions aren't perfect yet. For example Pistoleers need more defense for one. But that is how it should be balanced. We can't balance by making everyone have the same DPS. Simple reason is if we did we still aren't balanced. Carbineers would still have more combat multipliers and Pistoleers more defense. We would then have to 'balance' all those and would end up with three identical professions with just different graphics in their hand.
Your speed arguement is slightly flawed also. As was mentioned, rifles have a much higher base speed. So a corresponding higher speed mod is required to bring them in line. My opinion is that a Master of any profession should just about hit the speed cap. The problem with Carbineer and Pistoleer isn't their speed mods so much as the delay mods in the specials. Those need to be lowered a bit and probably add some speed to the professions themselves. But you aren't going to have to add much since they have lower bases. A pistol speed of +50 will just about get a decent pistol to the speed cap on autofire remember.
However you make another misstep in regards to speed tapes. What you fail to mention is that a Rifleman is required to get them to speed cap. I don't believe that Pistoleers or Carbineers require them since they can take the appropriate line from BH and get not only speed but also accuracy.
Which means that their accuracy will actually be above that of even rifles by taking the BH line. Since Pistoleer, Cabineer, and Rifleman all have about the same accuracy (once you add in mods from specials) within their profession. The BH adds speed and accuracy to pistols and carbines. An enhancement the Rifleman has no opportunity to partake.
slabby
Tue Aug 10, 2004 8:54 am
#21
Most rifleman master marksman to get extra speed.
Most pistoleers get speed tapes or take some bounty hunter.
I'd suggest Doing the same. master marksman or take some BH to get extra speed.
I'm spending almost 50 skills points for +5 speed. How many extra skill points are you spending for extra speed?
RebRifle
Tue Aug 10, 2004 10:37 am
#22
Ya i just wondering why the hell the words in my last post are so dam streched out but ya speed mods are **edit**ed up completly.
RozhlokLightningskull
Tue Aug 10, 2004 10:50 am
#23
I think Waste93 hit it right on the head. Its not just DPS, its a combination of defense, DPS and states. Not to mention Pistoleers can be enhanced offensively by taking from Smuggler and/or BH and Carbineers can be enhanced offensively by taking from BH.
Why do professions that are broken want tobreak professions that are working and fun? Just doesn't make any sense to me.
Yeebus
Tue Aug 10, 2004 11:39 am
#24
I'm a master marksman/rifleman, and I swear my 7.6 sec T21 fires faster than once per second when I spam Strafe2
I was concealshotting a DW Wraith the other day with another master rifleman (don't know if he was master marksman too) with an identical T21, and the combat log showed I was getting 2 hits in for his 1
I'm at +95 rifle speed with no SEAs or AAs - I wonder what I'd be like maxed out at +125
Waste93
Tue Aug 10, 2004 11:48 am
#25
Yeebus wrote:
I'm a master marksman/rifleman, and I swear my 7.6 sec T21 fires faster than once per second when I spam Strafe2
I was concealshotting a DW Wraith the other day with another master rifleman (don't know if he was master marksman too) with an identical T21, and the combat log showed I was getting 2 hits in for his 1
I'm at +95 rifle speed with no SEAs or AAs - I wonder what I'd be like maxed out at +125
There is no cap on the speed mod. However, anything over +100 is useless since it's a percent reduction.
As for your experience. The other person could very easily have been a Master Rifleman without Master Marksman. The Master Marksman basically cuts the speed in half from Master Rifle.
There is a 1/sec cap on shots. However it may seem faster in some cases because of lag issues.
Kaelle_DB
Tue Aug 10, 2004 12:13 pm
#26
Well actually it depends on what the creature is. If it is something that is energy vuln, negating AP, the pistol user would do the most damage. Last ditch is 9x damage, cripplingshot/scatter 2 and strafeshot 2 are 7.5x.
But yes the way speed mods are calculated is seriously borked, nothing is going to happen to it any time soon (before the combat balance).