Carbineer Archive
Thread: What three trees?
Can I ask what good does Master Scout serve you? I looked at it but didn't see anything except pre-req for Ranger.
TAfirehawk wrote:
Can I ask what good does Master Scout serve you? I looked at it but didn't see anything except pre-req for Ranger.
It's more a Role-playing thing than anything else. Plus the bonuses to Creature harvesting.
Damage schamage... I'd never trade the FullAutos for Burstshots anyday. The state effects are worth the cost, especially those times when the God of Dizzy/KD's graces you with his blessings.
novamarine wrote:
Imagine a duelunbuffed/no stat enhancing food. One player uses fullautosingle2 and chargeshot1/2 only. The other player uses burstshot1 and chargeshot1/2 only. Who do you think would win?
The player who has the most luck wins
Rorenikibi wrote:
novamarine wrote:
Imagine a duelunbuffed/no stat enhancing food. One player uses fullautosingle2 and chargeshot1/2 only. The other player uses burstshot1 and chargeshot1/2 only. Who do you think would win?
IF Counterattack worked, IF both are Master Carbineers. I'd say even money.Remember, blind kills your accuracy, Stun wastes your rate of fire and a few other effects I'm not totally clear on, and if that first FullAutoSingle2 drops a Dizzy with the ChargeShot1 follow up, kiss the BurstShotter goodbye.
There's more to the combat equation than raw damage. If I wanted to be that kind of brute force player, I'd be a TKA.
Message Edited by Rorenikibi on 05-04-2004 03:46 PM
Ah...You continue to fail to see why I commented on burstshot1.
Burstshot1 costs ~100 HAM to fire.
Fullautosingle2 costs ~150 HAM to fire.
Thus, without a very early dizzy applied, the player using burstshot1 would likely win in the vast majority of cases simply because of the massive HAM costs associated with fullautosingle2. When one considers that dizzy has zero effect on creatures and that players, regardless of what they say, cannot be buffed 24/7, burstshot1 becomes an extremely valuable special for defending yourself while traveling, checking harvestors, etc. Further, many players have migrated their stats to favor mind with the assumption they will always be buffed when they fight. Such a player simply cannot defend themselves using fullautosingle2 or they will be nearlyincapped after firing 3-4 times. In essence, there is not an "I Win!" button in Carbineer and each special has uses depending on the situation.
novamarine wrote:
Rorenikibi wrote:
novamarine wrote:
Imagine a duelunbuffed/no stat enhancing food. One player uses fullautosingle2 and chargeshot1/2 only. The other player uses burstshot1 and chargeshot1/2 only. Who do you think would win?
IF Counterattack worked, IF both are Master Carbineers. I'd say even money.Remember, blind kills your accuracy, Stun wastes your rate of fire and a few other effects I'm not totally clear on, and if that first FullAutoSingle2 drops a Dizzy with the ChargeShot1 follow up, kiss the BurstShotter goodbye.
There's more to the combat equation than raw damage. If I wanted to be that kind of brute force player, I'd be a TKA.
Message Edited by Rorenikibi on 05-04-2004 03:46 PM
Ah...You continue to fail to see why I commented on burstshot1.
Burstshot1 costs ~100 HAM to fire.
Fullautosingle2 costs ~150 HAM to fire.
Thus, without a very early dizzy applied, the player using burstshot1 would likely win in the vast majority of cases simply because of the massive HAM costs associated with fullautosingle2. When one considers that dizzy has zero effect on creatures and that players, regardless of what they say, cannot be buffed 24/7, burstshot1 becomes an extremely valuable special for defending yourself while traveling, checking harvestors, etc. Further, many players have migrated their stats to favor mind with the assumption they will always be buffed when they fight. Such a player simply cannot defend themselves using fullautosingle2 or they will be nearlyincapped after firing 3-4 times. In essence, there is not an "I Win!" button in Carbineer and each special has uses depending on the situation.
Agree on the boldpoint, my response was predicated on the scenario you offered based on being a duel between Carbineers. In a PvE face off against an animal MOB, of course, damage only. As you say, each shot to its purpose. I feel that the state effects of FAS and FAA more than balance the additional cost when applied to PvP.
I still feel you just do not understand the issue at hand and are now just arguing for arguing sake. The original poster asked which 3 trees to take. Burstshot1 is a very valuable skill when the carbineer is not buffed and as such it makes picking between the special abilities and the counterinsurgency line, which is what this thread was supposed to be about, difficult. I will end this discussion now since it is clear you goal is debate and not a positive discussion about which 3 trees of carbineer to take.
Rorenikibi wrote:
novamarine wrote:
Rorenikibi wrote:
novamarine wrote:
Imagine a duelunbuffed/no stat enhancing food. One player uses fullautosingle2 and chargeshot1/2 only. The other player uses burstshot1 and chargeshot1/2 only. Who do you think would win?
IF Counterattack worked, IF both are Master Carbineers. I'd say even money.Remember, blind kills your accuracy, Stun wastes your rate of fire and a few other effects I'm not totally clear on, and if that first FullAutoSingle2 drops a Dizzy with the ChargeShot1 follow up, kiss the BurstShotter goodbye.
There's more to the combat equation than raw damage. If I wanted to be that kind of brute force player, I'd be a TKA.
Message Edited by Rorenikibi on 05-04-2004 03:46 PM
Ah...You continue to fail to see why I commented on burstshot1.
Burstshot1 costs ~100 HAM to fire.
Fullautosingle2 costs ~150 HAM to fire.
Thus, without a very early dizzy applied, the player using burstshot1 would likely win in the vast majority of cases simply because of the massive HAM costs associated with fullautosingle2. When one considers that dizzy has zero effect on creatures and that players, regardless of what they say, cannot be buffed 24/7, burstshot1 becomes an extremely valuable special for defending yourself while traveling, checking harvestors, etc. Further, many players have migrated their stats to favor mind with the assumption they will always be buffed when they fight. Such a player simply cannot defend themselves using fullautosingle2 or they will be nearlyincapped after firing 3-4 times. In essence, there is not an "I Win!" button in Carbineer and each special has uses depending on the situation.
Agree on the boldpoint, my response was predicated on the scenario you offered based on being a duel between Carbineers. In a PvE face off against an animal MOB, of course, damage only. As you say, each shot to its purpose. I feel that the state effects of FAS and FAA more than balance the additional cost when applied to PvP.
Also, the always buffed part is true. However, on Kettemoor, there are still players who PvE with stats migrated for unbuffed play. Only the hardcore PvPers keep their Mind maxed.
If you read my Miracle thread, you'll read about me taking down a buffed and composite armored player using only food as an enhancer. My stats at the time were modestly migrated to be Mind heavy (700/700/1000), but still balanced enough to be PvE capable lackingbuffs.
The choice is situational. Your example scenario made FAS2 the logical shot to me.
I feel left out of this bickering.... 
How about less Assault and/or Marksmanship? Simply boost those with SEA's, food, scopes, etc.....not saying I want to do this, but food for thought....
And Nova, how often do encounters in the wild happen when you have no choice but to fight not buffed? We all have bikes so there is VERY little risk in random travel anymore......radical change in gameplay IMO.
Nova, the point of the debate was to try and show the differences in playstyles for Carbineers within different arenas. If he's going to play it with only three lines, 4404 is what I thought would be best. BurstShots may be better damage for the HAM, but the FullAutos are way more versatile when matched with the ChargeShots. Besides, if he has a Mastery in another Elite ranged profession, he's probably already got better defenses than we've got to offer.
Debate has a point, whether you see it immediately or not. It wasn't bickering, and it wasn't debating for the sake of debate. I was presenting what I thought worked best for me as a Carbineer that does both PvE and PvP (Since I seldom ever touch BurstShots and use low HAM carbines to mitigate the excess costs). Your concept was better for straight creature PvE. You're right that state effects are useless against creatures, but last I checked a good chunk of high endPvE was against NPCs which are VERY subject to the state effects of the FullAuto attacks.
Your position on BurstShots was a higher damage output for less HAM.
Mine was that the higher HAM of FullAutos was worth the possibility of A) reducing attack accuracy with Blind, B) reducing enemy attack speed with Stun, and C) the possibility of inflicting the Dizzy state which can be paired with ChargeShot 1/2, ActionShot2, OR SuppressionFire 2 to bring on a KD that could be a winning match. Yes, KD/Dizzy is the more powerful, and yes, it doesn't work against creatures, but the other two states DO work and to me, are worth the added HAM cost. Even moreso, a ChargeShot sans Dizzy may only put an enemy down for a second or two, but that's one or two follow upshots where you're damage goes WAY up while they are forced prone, which is a benefit that theSpecials line certainly has over the Counterinsurgency line. An undizzied ChargeShot is also a superior method of opening up the distance between a retreating Carbineer and a pursuing enemy to buy a few seconds to recover.
Additionally, in my experience, the FullAutos have a better chance of inflicting Mind damage than the BurstShots. Maybe this is in the mechanics, maybe its the luck of the draw I've had, but FullAuto has won me more PvP engagements against buffed and armoredopponents because of its ability to work on their Mind bar while they are pouring damage into the strength of my Health and Action bars (yes, there are cases where this doesn't work, like TKAs and Swordsmanin close quarters or Riflemen just about anywhere). Maybe this is a purely PvP asset that he may never use, but with that being stated, the knowledge that the Specials line can give a credible level of PvP functionality when applied intelligently opens the door to more opportunities to use this class.
BurstShot1 is a superior shot to FullAutoSingle1 in the Novice box in terms of damage and probably rate of fire, but in the long run, BurstShot 1/2 are a false economy when comparedto the added benefits of the rest of the FullAutos.
That's not debate for the sake of debating, that's me putting the most complete answer with explanation I have for how to play this class in the widest possible arena I can.
Bottom line, if you have another Master Combat profession, stick with their defenses and go 4404 Carbineer.