Carbineer Archive

Please read this post to it's completion. It's already been brought up in both the Rifleman and Pistoleer forums to rousing applause. At first it might seem like I am off course, but hear me out and I think you will agree that it will help EVERYONE.

The best way to balance the combat situation right now and to encourage further balance is to give Bounty Hunters another gun. A Bounty Hunter only Carbine. Call it whatever you want (and judging from the name they gave the Carbineer's "Elite Carbine" that name is going to stink). In other words, give the Bounty Hunters one profession-specific weapon for EACH combat tree. So you would have:

Light Lightning Cannont
Scatter Pistol
[insert name of Carbine here]

Let them earn unique XP in each of these guns, and let them earn special mods for each of these guns THAT DO NOT APPLY to normal pistols and carbines.

The truth is that most of the "cheap Pistoleers" and "cheap Carbineers" and "cheap Bounty Hunters" are one and the same. People who are moonlighting in both a marksman profession and Bounty Hunter in order to get an OUTRAGEOUS accuracy/speed boost that no sane Developer could ever have intended.

That being said, and as someone who has played as a Smuggler, a Bounty Hunter, a Pistoleer, a Carbineer and a Rifleman (not all at once, obviously) the mechanics of the game favor Pistoleers somewhat, and favor Pistoleer/Bounty Hunters to a disgusting degree. But I think if the Bounty Hunter bonus were changed (READ: NOT REMOVED) so that it only benefited Bounty Hunters, it would make the game better for everyone. Well, no. It would make the game worse for 133t d00dz. So, you know, it would make the game better for everyone with a soul.

In order to be fair to the Bounty Hunters, I am NOT proposing that they lose any of the benefits of Master Marksman. For example, they have +30 Pistol & Carbine Speed in Master Marksman, as well as +50 Pistol & Carbine Accuracy. I propose that at Novice Bounty Hunter, they get equal stat increases in Scatter Pistol and BH Carbine. So they would see NO DIFFERENCE at all. They already get stat bonuses for the LLC, so it's not a new or radical idea. And it would make them more of a "specialty class" like the Commando, which has also adopted this system.

Separating the weapon mods would prevent people from moonlighting for skill mods. It would also give Bounty Hunters access to another "cool weapon that they spend 217 points earning!" It'd be good for everyone, and most of the "cheap pistol users" would suddenly be gone from the game, as would the "cheap carbine users". Because both of those groups are really moonlighters using the Bounty Hunter skill mods to increase their effectiveness beyond their profession's limits. The reason Riflemen complain the loudest, obviously, is that there are no rifle skill mods in Bounty Hunter.

But I'm glad to hear it. There shouldn't be. There shouldn't be cross-professional skill mods that can stack like that for any combat class. That's just not good sense. If you have multiple professions that can stack their skills, you have to do that across the board for EVERYONE or else certain groups will always be overpowered, and the game will be comprised of only a few, select cookie-cutter characters.

There are a very select few number of Carbineers that can really lay down the pain in this game, and virtually ALL of them are Carbineer/Bounty Hunters. Really, these are just Carbineers with +Skill mods from Bounty Hunter, as they do not act like Bounty Hunters at all. But this minority is giving the majority of Carbineers a BAD NAME. People fight one or two of these folks and say, "Shut up, Carbineers, you guys are STRONG ENOUGH." When in fact the only way to achieve that level is to build a very specific, very repetative cookie-cutter character.

Maybe it sounds like I am suggesting a nerf to you guys here. I hope you don't see it that way. I certianly don't. The Pistoleers have much more to gain (in Eyeshot) from the Bounty Hunter skills, and they all agree that it needs to change. By changing these +Skill mods to be class specific, it will allow some actual balance to exist between the classes. I'd like to refer you to the post I made in Pistoleer and the resonse it generated:

http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=pistoleer&message.id=17541

I'd also like your feedback, good or bad. But let's try and keep it civil, eh?

Now, do not take this the wrong way, but those are pathetic ideas. Now, Im not a Bounty Hunter but to make them totally earn their XP in a different way will just ruin the whole point of being a BH. Bounty Hunters are supposed to be the way they are now, they do not get all those defence bosnus', they do not use a pistol/carb/heavyweapon as well as a pistoleer/carbineer/commando, yet they do get some really strong shots. This will break the BH profession and turn it into a 'leet' Combat profession, when in fact, they are not as skilled in any of the weapons that they use as well as the pistoleer/carbineer/commando. And to top that off, people will still go into Bounty Hunter for a few strong special moves, despite the fact that they would earn the xp slightly differently.

I think this is a solution worthy of investigation. A friend and I were just discussing this very idea the other day. We carried it one step further and thought that this would be a good idea for all elite professions.

It would be easier to balance the elite professions if the special moves in the profession were tied to specific weapon certifications available only to that profession.

It even fits with the stated intention of the developers to add variety to the choice of weapons.

Solid, of course, everyone is entitled to an opinion about it. But I do think that the fact that people will take Bounty Hunter ANYWAY helps the argument, rather than hurts it.

And Rebel, thanks. That's kinda my point. Heh. I'm already crafting up a version of this proposal for Bounty Hunters. It gets more precise every time I get community feedback from it (the first one didn't address the changes needed to BH stats, for example) so that by the time it gets to the class we're actually talking about tinkering with, it will be a BONUS rather than a CRUTCH.

See what you are doing is taking one thing and calling it another. This idea will never pass, if it does I'll make you a deal. I will leave SWG's and never come back if your ideas are accepted by the DEVs. I am not here to flame, nor have I been trying to. At first I was interesting in your post, but then you are saying that you want to destroy the Bounty Hunter skill tree and basically make it like the Commando one, if you get my meaning. I do hope you learn to understand this a little better by now.

Solid, woah, take it easy. I didn't think you were flaming and I wasn't trying to flame you back. Let me explain myself.

I understand that you think this will destroy the Bounty Hunter profession. I don't understand how, honestly. Bounty Hunters will still have the EXACT same skill mods that they have currently. None of that will change. The only difference will be that they don't have access to the skill mods in Carbineer or Pistoleer. It's not as if that's their bread and butter. With only 33 skill points left, the one or two Master Bounty Hunters that I know both took some Medic skills to stay alive in combat.

I think this WOULD BE a gut-punch to people who DABBLE in Bounty Hunter just to boost their primary profession. And if you ask around amongst the people who really play Bounty Hunters, they aren't too pleased with them, either. The moonlighters give Bounty Hunters, Pistoleers and Carbineers a bad name. If Bounty Hunters still want to take some Pistoleer for Bodyshot3 or some Carbineer for FullAreaAuto attacks, more power to them. They still can. They just can't stack the mods. And I seriously can't see those skills being of more value than Medic skills. . . honestly.

I'm not going after Bounty Hunters. I'm going after people who ABUSE Bounty Hunter and unbalance the rest of the game. But maybe I am missing something or missing your point, I have not played Bounty Hunter for quite some time now.

How exactly would this cause people to flock from Bounty Hunter? They would still have the same moves, the same mods at Master, and, in fact, they would have another Bounty Hunter specific weapon. So I don't get it. But if you're up for explaining it to me, I'm willing to read it over and maybe see where I have been wrong.

some of us just don't have the skill points to do this either

by what your saying to be effective in combat everyone should go BH. but what about cms and doctors, they can't have those skills and BH but they still might want to fight (hence the name cm). It would be better if specials were just fixed and then move on from there

There are 2 kinds of RPG games: skill and class based games.

Diablo is a classic example of a class-based game: what you can and cannot do is determined by the skills your class has. In these types of games, you level by leveling your class.

Ultima Online is a skill based game: any character can have any skill provided they earn the skill. This system usually employes a skill point cost and a cap at how many points you can have. In Ultima Online, for example, you have 700 points to spend as you please. In these games, you level by leveling your skills.

SWG is a skill-based game. You level by leveling your skills. You can pick and choose which skills you want and don't want. That is the reason you get pistol experience for using pistols and not "marksman" experience. In the end you have 250 points to spend the way you want.

Your proposal is to turn the game into a class-based game which this game is not or it would have been developed that way from the beginning. Many people hate class-based games and thus choose to play skill-based games. Many people hate skill-based games and choose to play those. Turning SWG into a class-based game might make you and some others happy, but it would make people unhappy that cam to this game for its skill-based nature. Don't expect this to collect alot of steam.

Solid, I think most people want to go for it just for the ridiculous +Skill mods. The LLC's powerful new upgrade didn't hurt matters, but the people who are really powergaming are in it to add all of the +Skill mods to their pre-existing ones across two Professions. And hey, I've ALWAYS called for a few more guns, since I find it silly that we get our best guns at NOVICE levels of Professions. But any solution that does not address the overpowered characters that can double their +Skills in Carbine or Pistol by grabbing both sets of Professions is not a solution. We have to get the Devs to see that.

They said themselves that Master Bounty Hunter is one of the LEAST purchased skills in the game. I'm willing to bet that Novice Bounty Hunter is one of the MOST purchased (non-starter) skills in the game. The reason for that is people dabbline to uber-power their Pistol and Carbine +Skills. And if you want to keep up, you've got to do the same thing.

Aden, I really think you are on to something, keep up the crusade.

Even if we can not agree on BH specific weapons as a solution, can we all agree that stacking bonuses area real problem? If so what other solution is easier to implement or less painful on the BH than losing some weapons?

Rebel, I am COMPLETELY in favor of Bounty Hunters keeping their other guns if another solution to the problem that allows it is available. And hey, my solution isn't definitely going to be the one the Devs pick. I am just suggesting what I think can be done about it.

If anyone else can come up with a way to stop double-stacking of skill mods and yet still let the Bounty Hunters retain their current weapon selection, I would support that change 100%. In fact, I would PREFER it to what I have suggested.

Combining the 3 and mixing the 3 combat trees of BHs would effectively fix this. It will still give a slight boost to pistoleers, and carbineers who want to dable in BH. So instead of just a LLC tree, a carbine tree, and a pistol tree, there would be a tree full of knockdowns, one with AOEs and another with the HAM specific attacks with status effects. So a pistoleer for example can master pistol and if he or she wanted to, could grab the first box of the AOE tree to get that pistol AOE attack. Those are just some examples and I am sure they could be balanced out a little better, but this solution should at least stop these professions from obtaining all of the skill modifiers.

Ron, I didn't mean to say that! Geez, maybe I worded something wrong here.

What I am saying is that people who take Pistoleer shouldn't be able to take Bounty Hunter to make them BETTER PISTOLEERS. Skills in Bounty Hunter should make them better BOUNTY HUNTERS. And the same thing holds true for Carbineer.

This would actually make it EASIER for people who take Combat Medic or Doctor to compete, because they could still max out one Elite Marksman profession (Pistoleer, Carbineer or Rifleman).

As it is now, someone who takes Pistoleer and Bounty Hunter will ALWAYS be better with a pistol than someone who takes Pistoleer and (for example) Combat Medic. These changes would make it so that a BH/Pistol or BH/Carb hybrid character wouldn't have god-like Pistol or Carbine speed and accuracy, thus making another type of hybrid MORE useful.

The problem is that the +Skill Mods in Bounty Hunter apply to Pistol and Carbine, so anyone who has both is ALWAYS above the intended maximum for the class.