Carbineer Archive
Thread: WildShot Redundant?
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ScarletPhoenix
Fri Jun 11, 2004 3:05 am
#1
I was reading our last top 5 issues, and one of them is that WildShot seems to be redundant. I beg to differ, and would rather have it left as it is. Here's why.
FullAuto2 is the standard attack for people who aren't speed capped or very close to it. It has great DPS and a chance to apply those three states. However, those three states are very, very short-lived. And if you are near the cap, you're going to be wanting to use CrippleShot or ScatterShot. Unfortunately, the FullAuto states wear off so quickly that you're going to have to constantly be going back to it, effectively lowering your DPS.
WildShot, on the other hand, is a lower damage shot that in my experience has a much, much higher chance of landing a stun for a lot, lot longer. Stun is a very important status, and having one or two attacks at the beginning of the battle then flipping to my shot of choice is much better than always mixing in FullAuto. In fact, I'd go so far as to suggest that there should be a special shot for Dizzy and Blind as well, since all of those states are so important. An Intimidate shot would be icing on the cake (but IMO I think Intimidate should remain the state of melee attackers, since they really do get shafted by a ranged professional that knows what they're doing).
In fact, I would argue that the new Master special, if there is one, should be a FullAutoArea 3 or FullAutoArea 2 moved up to master, with a much, much higher chance to apply all of its three status effects for a much longer time. That would be a very useful utility, but also not redundant, because using AoE cone attacks is always risky and I'm sure it would be more HAM than the standard single-target blind-stun-dizzies.
FullAuto2 is the standard attack for people who aren't speed capped or very close to it. It has great DPS and a chance to apply those three states. However, those three states are very, very short-lived. And if you are near the cap, you're going to be wanting to use CrippleShot or ScatterShot. Unfortunately, the FullAuto states wear off so quickly that you're going to have to constantly be going back to it, effectively lowering your DPS.
WildShot, on the other hand, is a lower damage shot that in my experience has a much, much higher chance of landing a stun for a lot, lot longer. Stun is a very important status, and having one or two attacks at the beginning of the battle then flipping to my shot of choice is much better than always mixing in FullAuto. In fact, I'd go so far as to suggest that there should be a special shot for Dizzy and Blind as well, since all of those states are so important. An Intimidate shot would be icing on the cake (but IMO I think Intimidate should remain the state of melee attackers, since they really do get shafted by a ranged professional that knows what they're doing).
In fact, I would argue that the new Master special, if there is one, should be a FullAutoArea 3 or FullAutoArea 2 moved up to master, with a much, much higher chance to apply all of its three status effects for a much longer time. That would be a very useful utility, but also not redundant, because using AoE cone attacks is always risky and I'm sure it would be more HAM than the standard single-target blind-stun-dizzies.
TAfirehawk
Fri Jun 11, 2004 5:59 am
#2
FullAutoSingle1, FullAutoSingle2, FullAutoArea1, and FullAutoArea2 all are extremely effective in applying States, this makes WildShot1 and WildShot2 redundant.
I tested WildShot on some Rancors and went over 10 shots before landing Stun, which also happens with the FullAuto Series so I just don't see the evidence to support keeping WildShot1/2 the same. And I need to put a stopwatch on it before making an absolute statement, but the Stun lasts a very long time on the FullAuto Series.
Our current discussion involves moving WildShot1/2 to Intimidate. That makes a lot more sense to me and a lot of other Regulars around here.
Even though FAS2 is 26.6% less at the Speed Cap than CripplingShot, I often use it to keep all states applied. AND just how many Carbineers are Speed Capped on all their weapons? Very few I am sure.
Do we really need SIX different Specials that apply Stun......I think not.....
jfang
Fri Jun 11, 2004 7:06 am
#3
Would it be worthwhile to consider an attack which landed a dizzy status, which also lasted longer than the current one on fullauto (which seems to me to run out in 10 seconds, but time in combat always seems faster than it really is)?
I noticed when a fencer lands a dizzy attack it sticks around for what seems like a very long time, whereas the fullauto one seems to vanish after only a very brief stay...
TAfirehawk
Fri Jun 11, 2004 7:19 am
#4
Our Dizzy is supposed to last 20 seconds, but it does seem shorter 
But I am pretty sure its max time is 20 seconds and some other "mods" can reduce the time just like reducing the chance to stick Dizzy.
But I am pretty sure its max time is 20 seconds and some other "mods" can reduce the time just like reducing the chance to stick Dizzy.I have heard the TK Dizzy and maybe other Melee Profs Dizzy can last up to 1 min and I have had that happen. Also the BH Dizzy is reported at 30 seconds.
I have only verified the TK Dizzy and Carbineer Dizzy......
novamarine
Fri Jun 11, 2004 7:24 am
#5
I agree wildshot needs to do something different. I have flagged that special as redundant and in need of something different for some time. Nothing will change before the revamp but hopefully in the revamp we will get it to do something new.
Matter of fact, I am writing something up now...
ScarletPhoenix
Fri Jun 11, 2004 8:08 am
#7
I went back and tried applying states to a creature without attacking it. In my experience, I found that WildShot applied the stun about twice as fast, but you're right, FA and WS stuns do last approximately the same length.
I'm real hesitant about giving intimidate to ranged opponents, though. It's a skill that a lot of people are willing to spend 15 points on (Novice Brawler) and even more to master brawler (intimidate 2).
Blind: Lowers attack and defense modifiers.
Dizzy: Adds the chance for the character to fall back down when attempting to stand.
Intimidate: Greatly lowers damage potential and slightly lowers defense modifiers.
Stun: Lowers attack modifier and slightly reduces damage potential.
Warcry: Adds a delay to the targets action queue.
These are the relevant (applied through attacking) status effects as the devs think they work. Obviously, in practice, we've all found them to work a little differently, but ostensibly after the combat balance they're going to work in the ways that they're intended to.
The thing is, the effects are ambiguous. What does it mean to "lower damage potential" or "lower defense modifiers"? Which modifiers? Primary defenses? Secondary defenses? Does that include status defenses? We have an idea, but we're not entirely sure.
To that end, I'd suggest that Blind lowers secondary defense modifiers. Intimidate should lower melee and ranged defense. Then, I'd add in one more status: confused, startled, surprised, something like that. It would be applied only by carbineers through wild shot (and a possible master box move that combines every status effect). The effect would be to greatly reduce the enemy's Def. vs. modifiers. This would be the perfect state for carbineers to be able to apply and make them very valuable on high-end content where states and their damage types are mostly resisted.
Furthermore, I think it's bull that it takes ten hits to stick a stun. I'm a BH Carbine IV working on master carbineer, and confusion shot sticks both a longer stun and a longer dizzy, and if it takes three times it's a remarkable occasion. I think this idea would help with that, and also upping FAA to at least stick its states half or a quarter as much as Confusion Shot.
I'm real hesitant about giving intimidate to ranged opponents, though. It's a skill that a lot of people are willing to spend 15 points on (Novice Brawler) and even more to master brawler (intimidate 2).
Blind: Lowers attack and defense modifiers.
Dizzy: Adds the chance for the character to fall back down when attempting to stand.
Intimidate: Greatly lowers damage potential and slightly lowers defense modifiers.
Stun: Lowers attack modifier and slightly reduces damage potential.
Warcry: Adds a delay to the targets action queue.
These are the relevant (applied through attacking) status effects as the devs think they work. Obviously, in practice, we've all found them to work a little differently, but ostensibly after the combat balance they're going to work in the ways that they're intended to.
The thing is, the effects are ambiguous. What does it mean to "lower damage potential" or "lower defense modifiers"? Which modifiers? Primary defenses? Secondary defenses? Does that include status defenses? We have an idea, but we're not entirely sure.
To that end, I'd suggest that Blind lowers secondary defense modifiers. Intimidate should lower melee and ranged defense. Then, I'd add in one more status: confused, startled, surprised, something like that. It would be applied only by carbineers through wild shot (and a possible master box move that combines every status effect). The effect would be to greatly reduce the enemy's Def. vs. modifiers. This would be the perfect state for carbineers to be able to apply and make them very valuable on high-end content where states and their damage types are mostly resisted.
Furthermore, I think it's bull that it takes ten hits to stick a stun. I'm a BH Carbine IV working on master carbineer, and confusion shot sticks both a longer stun and a longer dizzy, and if it takes three times it's a remarkable occasion. I think this idea would help with that, and also upping FAA to at least stick its states half or a quarter as much as Confusion Shot.
Message Edited by ScarletPhoenix on 06-11-2004 11:09 AM
Spank-A-Thon
Fri Jun 11, 2004 8:13 am
#8
novamarine wrote:
I agree wildshot needs to do something different. I have flagged that special as redundant and in need of something different for some time. Nothing will change before the revamp but hopefully in the revamp we will get it to do something new.
Matter of fact, I am writing something up now...
Hmmm, I'm not conviced it is redundant. You see, most of the time I want to apply stun at the start of a fight and whilst it may take a few shots to get it to stick, I know eventuallyit will stick.
With the FullAuto attacks, not only do the states not necessarily stick first time, I've also only got a 1 in 3 chance of what sticks being stun. So in theory I may have to use FA three times more than stun to get the same effect - which means I would get less attacks to use other shots at my disposal.
If a fight last 10 shots, I don't want to spend 6 of those shots hoping that FA will apply a stun when with WildShot, it may only take 1 or 2 shots thus leaving me8 shots for CrippleShot, ChargeShot, ActionShot and so on.
I like having a special that is specific to a certain state. If anything I think they should remove stun from the FA attacks and keep WildShot as it is. This would make WildShot not redundant and would improve the effectiveness of FA attacks.
I know some of you guys want Intimidate, but I'm a wook so I get /wookieeRoar!
-Ymo
TAfirehawk
Fri Jun 11, 2004 8:24 am
#9
Spank-A-Thon wrote:
I know some of you guys want Intimidate, but I'm a wook so I get /wookieeRoar!
-Ymo
Exactly why you don't see the use of Intimidate for the rest of us..... 
And for the most part if it takes 10 shots or less to kill something the usefullness of States, Bleed, KD are quite small.
jfang
Fri Jun 11, 2004 8:27 am
#10
TAfirehawk wrote:
INTIMIDATE......
/emote is intimidated by TAfirehawks fear inspiring, legendary, -1m, AP0, EE3carbineer flamer.
TAfirehawk
Fri Jun 11, 2004 8:29 am
#11
jfang wrote:
TAfirehawk wrote:
INTIMIDATE......
/emote is intimidated by TAfirehawks fear inspiring, legendary, -1m, AP0, EE3carbineer flamer.
ROFLMAO
jfang
Fri Jun 11, 2004 8:33 am
#12
Spank-A-Thon wrote:
With the FullAuto attacks, not only do the states not necessarily stick first time, I've also only got a 1 in 3 chance of what sticks being stun. So in theory I may have to use FA three times more than stun to get the same effect - which means I would get less attacks to use other shots at my disposal.
-Ymo
The problem with this argument is it assumes the system first rolls if a state will be applied, then rolls for which state. However, I've had a single attack apply 2 or 3 states before. It's more like (making up numbers, mind you):
-Wildshot has a 1/3 chance of applying stun.
-Fullauto has a 1/9 chance of applying stun, 1/9 change of stunning/ and 1/9 chance of dizzying. A total chance of applying a state of any kind approximately 1/3 (I know, it'l really less...)
You are right in that if you are dead set on getting a stun effect, wild shot is better. Your reasoning isn't really right though... (This is why I was always confused as to why wild shot was considered redundant. Useless maybe, but not redundant. But who am I to rewrite the specials sticky...)
TAfirehawk
Fri Jun 11, 2004 8:43 am
#13
With my Accuracy SEA's and Adv. Scoped Krayt Carbines I often apply more than one State in the first shot or two on FAS2.
I am not sure Stun is better than Intimidate and it is only slightly better than Blind IMO. Dizzy is a whole different type of State
Useless and Redundant are about the same thing, either way the majority of Carbineers do not use WildShot1/2 so that must tell us something.....
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