Carbineer Archive
Thread: Newsflash-you don't need stun to be good
Here's how to beat someone with a stun weapon-buy stun resistant composite. Even if its only 4% (like mine). Why? because it cuts those pesky batons and geo pistols by another 50% due to the AP0 of those weapons.
Then, buy yourself a 39% stun helm. i have one. I don't lose to riflemen anymore.
Problem solved. I kill people faster with my scythe (most people have 80% kinetic composite) then a pair of fencers could kill me with stun batons.
Don't believe for a second that everything people tell you is true. Stun is easy to beat.
/endrant
Actually Arias you are only half right with your analogy. Take it from a master Armorsmith. Sure the move of stun from vulnerability to special resist will make it AR1 which does a nice job in stopping batons and geo pistols, but you have to consider the other % of protection. Lets say you are wearing a 10% stun resist suit and a pistolleer hits you with body shot for 500 pts damage with a geo pistol. Armor reduces by 50% so now you take 250 pts of damage - 25 pts for the 10% stun layer, and you are down to 225 pts of damage. Now lets see same pistolleer, same damage but with an fwg5 gun which has heat damage. Now your composite armor is 65% heat resist (an easy number to obtain). You now have the 500 - 250 for the AR1=250. Now take the 250 and subtract 65% of that and you now take off 163 pts. So now you are only taking about 87 damage. Big difference between 225 pts of damage and87 pts isn't there. As for just the stun helmet, you ever been hit with advanced strafe shot by a rifleman with a jawa ion rifle, which hits random pools. It's not pretty. Stun damage is overpowered no matter what type of weapon you are using due to the fact of the other % resists to damage types that composite armor can reach.
Inoch,
Master AS/carbineer/TKA of Wanderhome
i got no ranged mitagation so i get the crap beat out of me with a jawa ion rifle yet fencers and pistolers pose no problem to me because they can't effectivly target mind so i can easily heal there damage(stim E's are great as a master doc) btu i don't see whay any master rifleman should be so uber in pvp i know this is the carbinner forum ( hi just popping in keeping up to date on current events and all) but the melee profs especially those without the high defences get wasted in pvp cause the master rifleman speed calculations are borkrd therenot meant to be spam a special once a second which is part of the problem they should make rifleman highly inaccurate on the move and much slower then that would make them fit into pvp again properly.
most i've been hit for by adv strafe was 600 with a krayted/imp stocked T21. i then healed, and ganked the owner. Why? Ranged mitigation drops damage FAST.
I know someone with a 500 max damage jawa ion, and the most he's hit me for in PvP was 350. With a 39% stun helm, thats not a lot of damage, especially with brandy/canape.
Most of the stun weapons suck anyways in terms of damage.
The only geonosian pistol to ever kill me was one with a mindfire DoT, and that was after i had DBd the owner.
If you need a stun weapon to compensate for lack of ability, then you obviously are doing something wrong.
In my experience, stun is extremely easy to negate. In my experience, i'd be much more afraid of poison/disease than stun.
Just FYI, there are so many simple, easy ways to beat stun damage that its not even worth having.
Message Edited by Carmien on 03-29-2004 10:10 AM
The problem is still there though, 55-90% (us) vs. 4-45% (them). What would you rather have?
Sorry, but I agree with Inoch 100%. You really have to take all things into consideration. I don't consider the other stun weapons too much of a problem, but the Jawa Rifle with a master rifleman is a very large problem.
If you are a serious PvP you probably have composite with 85-90% all resistances except for Stun damage, which is at around 40%. Most people fail to realize how much of a difference this makes. 90% resistance armor increases your effective HAM 1000%. 40% resistances only increases your effective HAM 166%. That is a HUGE difference. Even if the jawa rifle is only hitting for 1/6 the damage of another armor piercing one weapon, it will still be doing more damage. Let's take a look at nice little example:
Joe has 1000 base HAM to all his stats. After getting buffed Joe now has 3000 HAM. Joe is wearing 90% composite armor, with 40% stun layer. Joe is a Carbineer (since this is posted in the carbineer forum)
Andy also has 1000 HAM, buffed to 3000 HAM and is wearing 90% composite. Andy is a Rifleman.
Both of these players have 30,000 effective HAM (3000/.1) against all types of damage(at AP1), except stun damage which is at 5000 effective HAM (3000/.6)(AP1). Now let's look at their weapons:
Joe is using an Laser Carbine (Being nice here about the damage mitigation that would normally apply, and make the elite actually do more DPS):
83-317 damage, 3.9 speed -- 51 DPS with AP2
Andy is using a Jawa Ion Rifle:
127-230 damage, 5.6 speed -- 32 DPS with AP1
Now since the Laser Carbine is AP2 it gains 25% bonus damage, making it do about 64 DPS. As you can see, the Jawa Rifle is in fact doing only half the DPS of the Laser carbine, but since it's stun damage, it only has to do 5000 raw damage in order to kill Joe, while Joe has to do 30,000 damage with his Laser Carbine in order to kill Andy...Obviously the Jawa Rifle would win by a long shot.
Of course I was being nice. In reallity Rifleman get +90 speed. This allows them to hit the speed cap with their jawa rifle. Because of this every rifleman with half a brain will get their jawa damage sliced and put a damage powerup in it. Assuming he has the cash to spend (he better if he has 90% composite) his jawa will end up looking something like this:
199-413 Damage, 5.6 speed -- 55 DPS with AP1. But since he hit the speed cap, speed doesn't matter, and so he is infact doing 306 DPS!
Meanwhile, back in loser camp, Joe only has +60 speed at Master Carbineer. So he will NOT be able to get both a damage slice and a damage power and expect to hit the speed cap. Instead, Joe will have to get a Speed slice on his laser carbine if he wants to hit the cap (I haven't included specials yet), so his Laser Carbine will look like this:
96-421 Damage, 2.535 Speed -- 102 DPS with AP2. This Carbine would allow the Carbineer to hit the speed cap, but his DPS will only be 258, plus the 25% bonus from AP2 making it 322 DPS.
Now all of a sudden the Jawa is pumping out almost the same DPS as the Laser Carbine except it's stun damage, which means it's attacking 5000 effective HAM while the Laser Carbine has to attack 30,000 effective HAM. Assuming no specials were used, and not counting Damage mitigation (which would only slant the results even more in favor of the Jawa) it would take the Rifleman approximately 16 seconds to kill the Carbineer. However it would take the Carbineer 93 seconds to kill the rifleman!
Things get more complicated. The rifleman will be using Headshot 2 or 3, while a carbineer will most likely rely on Cripple shot. Now the Rifleman will not be hitting the speed cap anymore (unless he picks up a +5 speed tape) but neither will the carbineer (Even if the carbineer picks up +25 in speed tapes), and the carbineer will be much further behind. Also Headshot hits the mind pool every time, while Cripple probably hits it one out of 7 times or so. As we all know, the mind is the only pool worth hitting. Any of the other pools just serve to hurt the mind when the character pops a high powered Stim B or D.
Anyway, I think it's pretty clear how ridiculous a Jawa Rifle can be in the hands of a master rifleman.
Message Edited by SyrahRydia on 03-29-2004 01:08 PM
Message Edited by SyrahRydia on 03-29-2004 01:10 PM
Message Edited by SyrahRydia on 03-29-2004 01:38 PM