Business And Economy Archive
Thread: The Economy: The next major revamp...
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NeoMaximus
Sun Mar 20, 2005 7:40 pm
#1
In my opinion, The SWG economy is flawed. For starters,the economy is to based on mission terminals and "spawned" money, that is, credits that are created and handed out by NPC's and Terminals. This type of cash adds money to the market, without any benefit to the economic status of the entire galaxy, in other words: it doesn't benefit anyone but the person who ran the mission. In the real world, you can break down everyone in an economy into two types: the buyers and the sellers. In SWG this only exsists with player crafed items where there is a distinct seller and buyer. However for a mission terminal or NPC you are getting rid of 1/2 of the equation. this means there is a one directional flow of money into the market.
Beyond the fact that money is flowing in, and inflation on some severs is wild, I think the other major problem is the unrealistic approach to crafting in general. I personally like how items are crafted and wouldn't change anything with the crafting sessions, resources use, or experience needed in the "crafting" occupations, but the real problem lies with the unnatural decay, or rather non-decay, of major buildings and structures in the game. For example, one person can buy one house, and pay a "maintenance" fee to keep that structure arround infinantly. This leads to major major problems in two aspects of the economy. The first has to do with the one sided economy that I talked about above. You see, the players money disappears, it goes to no in game player and is removed from "circulation". This is an excess flow out of the galaxy, which idealy should counter the flow in I talked about above.
Whether the NPC credit flow in and the NPC credit flow out is equal or not it doesn't solve the problem of the perminant exsistance of certain structures and crafted items within the galalxy. I predict that within a yearcertain ocupations will be completely obsilete. For example: the architect profession... seems great, you build the most expensive things in the game and reap the benefits of constructing houses,town halls, mineral extractors, etc... but this isn'ttrue... You see these objects never decay and for (sometimes) between 10 c/hr and 100 c/hr, these structures will never disapear, plus theycan be re-deeded and moved... Now that is not realistic... Architects are screwed...
I would never critize without a solution, so here's what I got:
1) Revamp structuresso they decay, and can only be repaired byArchitects
2) Revamp the credit flow system so NPC credit spawns equal NPC credit drains
3) Revamp structures so they are not perminant (even if repaired by Architects)
4) Revamp crafting so that all items (including vehicals, etc...)decay, and eventually are destroyed
Tavtrin
Sun Mar 20, 2005 7:53 pm
#2
NeoMaximus wrote:
1) Revamp structuresso they decay, and can only be repaired byArchitects
2) Revamp the credit flow system so NPC credit spawns equal NPC credit drains
3) Revamp structures so they are not perminant (even if repaired by Architects)
4) Revamp crafting so that all items (including vehicals, etc...)decay, and eventually are destroyed
1) I agree with this, but the "sky is falling" idea about archs is foolish. People since release have been saying that arch will die and become totally useless because of lack of demand,but the demand is there. People need new harvs and furntirue, and even the occasional house. New players also need to be set up.
2)The spawn is almost the same is the drain, look at the numerous posts on inflation(Milgrams one is good)
3)Same as one
4) Furniture, structures, and clothing are the only things which really don't decay in a meaningful way.
bluejanus
Sun Mar 20, 2005 8:02 pm
#3
NeoMaximus wrote:
In my opinion, The SWG economy is flawed. For starters,the economy is to based on mission terminals and "spawned" money, that is, credits that are created and handed out by NPC's and Terminals. This type of cash adds money to the market, without any benefit to the economic status of the entire galaxy, in other words: it doesn't benefit anyone but the person who ran the mission. In the real world, you can break down everyone in an economy into two types: the buyers and the sellers. In SWG this only exsists with player crafed items where there is a distinct seller and buyer. However for a mission terminal or NPC you are getting rid of 1/2 of the equation. this means there is a one directional flow of money into the market.
Beyond the fact that money is flowing in, and inflation on some severs is wild, I think the other major problem is the unrealistic approach to crafting in general. I personally like how items are crafted and wouldn't change anything with the crafting sessions, resources use, or experience needed in the "crafting" occupations, but the real problem lies with the unnatural decay, or rather non-decay, of major buildings and structures in the game. For example, one person can buy one house, and pay a "maintenance" fee to keep that structure arround infinantly. This leads to major major problems in two aspects of the economy. The first has to do with the one sided economy that I talked about above. You see, the players money disappears, it goes to no in game player and is removed from "circulation". This is an excess flow out of the galaxy, which idealy should counter the flow in I talked about above.
Whether the NPC credit flow in and the NPC credit flow out is equal or not it doesn't solve the problem of the perminant exsistance of certain structures and crafted items within the galalxy. I predict that within a yearcertain ocupations will be completely obsilete. For example: the architect profession... seems great, you build the most expensive things in the game and reap the benefits of constructing houses,town halls, mineral extractors, etc... but this isn'ttrue... You see these objects never decay and for (sometimes) between 10 c/hr and 100 c/hr, these structures will never disapear, plus theycan be re-deeded and moved... Now that is not realistic... Architects are screwed...
I would never critize without a solution, so here's what I got:
1) Revamp structuresso they decay, and can only be repaired byArchitects
2) Revamp the credit flow system so NPC credit spawns equal NPC credit drains
3) Revamp structures so they are not perminant (even if repaired by Architects)
4) Revamp crafting so that all items (including vehicals, etc...)decay, and eventually are destroyed
Are prices rising or falliing for architects? If inflation were really rampant, average pricing for architect products would rise, even with reduced demand, since during inflation money is worth less.
Starcloud
Sun Mar 20, 2005 9:43 pm
#4
You are mistaking "inflation" for "high prices," neo, just like dozensof other posts on these boards.At this point in time, prices for most things are *very* stable and *very* predictable on any individual galaxy. Price comparison of items between galaxies is irrelevant; the only thing that matters is price stability. The only things that are price-unstable and selling for very high prices are true "luxury" items; exceptional looted weapons, high-end skill tapes, etc... all stuff you can do without quite comfortably.
Inflation is the steady "creep upwards" of prices of all goods and services due to the cost of doing business going up. This does not occur in SWG. Supply and demand are what drive prices in the SWG model, and right now demand = supply for almost all crafted items. If a crafter spends more on resources and raises his prices too much, his goods don't sell, which eventually causes the crafter to lower prices for his goods. If his prices are too *low*, he sells out his vendor too quickly, which causes him to raise his prices.
Second, of course thecredits taken by a combat character running missions benefits other people... he spends those credits! While you are correct that there does not seem to be a very large outflow of credits from the economy in general, that doesn't matter. Those credits eventually make their way to the "big" crafters, who have so much money they just let it sit in the bank. Because it's not recirculated, since the bank doesn't *loan* money, the big crafters are a monetary supply buffer, a kind of credit sink.
Incidentally, in the real world, do you know where money comes from? Let me give you a hint; the Government prints it, i.e. "spawns" it. The cost of actually minting the money is so low that effectively there *is* no cost to the government. Messing around with the supply of money or credits is the surest way to destabilize the economy, whether in the real world or in the game world.
Third, houses will never be automatically destroyed. They are storage, and decoration. In case you hadn't noticed, the developers recently made the move to havestructures stay *permanently* in the game world, until/unless the owning character is purged from the database. This was done over the objections of the Architect community and the architect correspondant.
Next, Mission pay will never be limited to cash flow drain. In this economic design, you are directly rewarded for the amount of effort you put into running missions or crafting. To limit all mission payouts to the amount being drained from the economy every hour/day/whatever is to cap the amount any individual player can earn, meaning that you are no longer being rewarded for the effort you put into the game.
The economy is neither flawed nor broken. It works. As long as the developers keep a careful eye on the credit supply and close any dupe bugs they find as quick as they are discovered, then the economy will remain stable. And the developers *are* keeping a careful eye on credit supplies.
bluejanus
Sun Mar 20, 2005 10:46 pm
#5
Tavtrin wrote:
NeoMaximus wrote:
1) Revamp structuresso they decay, and can only be repaired byArchitects
2) Revamp the credit flow system so NPC credit spawns equal NPC credit drains
3) Revamp structures so they are not perminant (even if repaired by Architects)
4) Revamp crafting so that all items (including vehicals, etc...)decay, and eventually are destroyed
1) I agree with this, but the "sky is falling" idea about archs is foolish. People since release have been saying that arch will die and become totally useless because of lack of demand,but the demand is there. People need new harvs and furntirue, and even the occasional house. New players also need to be set up.
2)The spawn is almost the same is the drain, look at the numerous posts on inflation(Milgrams one is good)
3)Same as one
4) Furniture, structures, and clothing are the only things which really don't decay in a meaningful way.
Well, droids and pets decay somewhat but do not turnover very quickly, especially since most droid usage is non-combat. I'm not sure about ship decay. Someone else will have to jump in about that.
Tavtrin
Sun Mar 20, 2005 10:48 pm
#6
bluejanus wrote:
Tavtrin wrote:
NeoMaximus wrote:
1) Revamp structuresso they decay, and can only be repaired byArchitects
2) Revamp the credit flow system so NPC credit spawns equal NPC credit drains
3) Revamp structures so they are not perminant (even if repaired by Architects)
4) Revamp crafting so that all items (including vehicals, etc...)decay, and eventually are destroyed
1) I agree with this, but the "sky is falling" idea about archs is foolish. People since release have been saying that arch will die and become totally useless because of lack of demand,but the demand is there. People need new harvs and furntirue, and even the occasional house. New players also need to be set up.
2)The spawn is almost the same is the drain, look at the numerous posts on inflation(Milgrams one is good)
3)Same as one
4) Furniture, structures, and clothing are the only things which really don't decay in a meaningful way.
Well, droids and pets decay somewhat but do not turnover very quickly, especially since most droid usage is non-combat. I'm not sure about ship decay. Someone else will have to jump in about that.
Your right, I forgot about droids although I thought that pets decayed, not sure about that though. And I'm a non jtl swger, so I wouldn't know about ships I just assumed they decayed.
bluejanus
Sun Mar 20, 2005 11:05 pm
#7
Tavtrin wrote:
bluejanus wrote:
Tavtrin wrote:
NeoMaximus wrote:
1) Revamp structuresso they decay, and can only be repaired byArchitects
2) Revamp the credit flow system so NPC credit spawns equal NPC credit drains
3) Revamp structures so they are not perminant (even if repaired by Architects)
4) Revamp crafting so that all items (including vehicals, etc...)decay, and eventually are destroyed
1) I agree with this, but the "sky is falling" idea about archs is foolish. People since release have been saying that arch will die and become totally useless because of lack of demand,but the demand is there. People need new harvs and furntirue, and even the occasional house. New players also need to be set up.
2)The spawn is almost the same is the drain, look at the numerous posts on inflation(Milgrams one is good)
3)Same as one
4) Furniture, structures, and clothing are the only things which really don't decay in a meaningful way.
Well, droids and pets decay somewhat but do not turnover very quickly, especially since most droid usage is non-combat. I'm not sure about ship decay. Someone else will have to jump in about that.
Your right, I forgot about droids although I thought that pets decayed, not sure about that though. And I'm a non jtl swger, so I wouldn't know about ships I just assumed they decayed.
Pets sorta decay. When they get incapped, they can lose some of their vitality. I forget at what level 70%, but at that point their stats drop. You can use vitality packs torestore vitality, but the overall cap drops just like when you repair weapons/armor. The thing is other than thatyour pet can pretty much last forever if you're careful.
Smart_Darwin
Sun Mar 20, 2005 11:51 pm
#8
I too agree that the sky isn't falling for architects. Sure there are lots of things taht remain unresolved, but our standing int he overall economy seems surprisingly secure despite lack of decay. I can't quite explain why we keep selling houses (there are only so many new charachters being generated), but fact remains that we do. I sell so many houses (and not at rock bottom prices either) that I can't shift my production over to harvesters quickly enough. I have even resorted buying small houses from novice architects for check and marking them up considerably.
While i gear up for heavy harvester production, I find furniture is keeping me in the black. And there is the point to my post (at long last). each galaxy has its own profile and even the area around each starport can result in varios niches for crafters to fill. Who knew that most of my sales would come from furniture? Not I! Apparently there isa need in my area and I am filling it quite nicely. Even with so many crafters, I still see a few niches that remain unfilled.
Decay to structures and vehicles wouls be nice, logical and everything else, but the economy is not broken (though it could be imporved). I have about 1 million in small items sales this weekend as evidence for that.
Vrond
Mon Mar 21, 2005 7:57 am
#9
Ships decay slowly taking frame damage as destroyed. Ship parts can decay faster but for the most part the are built by Re Engineering Looted parts at high level so they are more loot based economy then crafter economy.
Little-Green-Guy
Mon Mar 21, 2005 11:21 am
#10
there is no inflation. there are more 'sinks' than inflows. nice try though.
Leuther
Tue Mar 22, 2005 1:51 am
#11
Every POST needs a LIST!
This is all credits that are spent and not returned to the SWG.
-Starports (2000cr-4000cr)
-Shuttleports (100cr-400cr + Tax)
-Bank Transfers (5% of amount) *TY Nema0879
-House maintance (upto 50cr ph + Tax)
-Factory/Hovesters (upto 50cr ph)
-Vehical repair (upto 5500cr)
-Skill trainers (upto 10000cr per skill box)
This is all credits previded by SWG into player hands.
-Mission terminals (100cr - 8000cr) Not counting the BH missiosn that can get up to 30Kcr, and old Solo Groups.
-NPC Missions/Quest
-Junk dealers/Starship
*If I rememberright thats about it*
*Andyou always use the "Spent" list to get to the "Previded" location (inlessyou love walking!)*
lol 
wow im bored
wow im boredMessage Edited by Leuther on 03-21-2005 02:09 PM
Message Edited by Leuther on 03-24-2005 02:38 PM
Message Edited by Leuther on 03-24-2005 02:39 PM
Message Edited by Leuther on 03-25-2005 12:46 PM
Leuther
Tue Mar 22, 2005 12:38 pm
#12
They should take all the Money throwen into sink holes and useit like a lottery, where ppl can buy tickets with a number code.and thetotal sum of that mounths spendings is devided amoung the winners! that would return most of the money back into the system.
bluejanus
Tue Mar 22, 2005 1:50 pm
#13
Vrond wrote:
Ships decay slowly taking frame damage as destroyed. Ship parts can decay faster but for the most part the are built by Re Engineering Looted parts at high level so they are more loot based economy then crafter economy.
Thanks for the input, I haven't really explored JTL very much other than usiing it to hop planets without going through the hassle of using the ticket terminal. So even at this point, I'm woefully unknowledgeable about how the system works, the effects of mass, etc.
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