Business And Economy Archive
Thread: Content, Master Title, and Accumulating Stuff
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Elurin
Wed Mar 23, 2005 11:02 am
#1
There are a number of threads discussing these things either seperatly, or some level of tying them together.
Many people complain that there is nothing after Master, Many People complain that there is no content. These posts are followed by a number of /agree, and a number of /yourethebiggestidiotinthegame replies.
I would argue that both sides of the debate are correct.
There is content, and at the same time, there is no reason to play the content.
The problem with there being no advancement after master title is that it is so easy to get master title. If it took months and months to get master title like it does to get level 70 in another SOE game, then maybe it wouldn't be something to complain about.
Once people are master.. well.. even if there is a lot of content out there, there is little incentive to actually play the content, because all you get to do is accumulate stuff (via credits, what little loot there is, and buying thing) You play knowing that you are no better than anyone else out there, because they just need to run enough credit missions to be able to get the same thing you have.. you're not really any better as a player.
In my opinion, SWG would greatly benefit from there being some way of advacement after master. You don't have to get rid of the skill point system. Add levels after Master
You could come up with a simple solution such as Level 1 Master Rifleman, Level 43 Master Rifleman. You could come up with some number of Imersive Titles.. Legendary Master Rifleman, Mythical Master Rifleman. You would need to have a decent number of levels so that there would be a light at the end of the tunnel to the next level.
I know people say that Galaxies isn't a leveling based game, but I really think it ought to be, and I really think that levelling can fit into the storyline.
Leveling doesn't need to provide new abilities.. it could just increase the abilities obtained at master. Those increased skill abilities would be needed to kill larger and larger versions of the krayt dragon, on farther and farther away planets. These dragons would drop tissues with stats better than the tissues dropped from tat and would make a better weapon...this weapon would have to be made by a weaponsmith from a looted schematic.
My point is that leveling doesn't have to break the current economic or skill point system, and it would give people a reason to play the content that is there.
Many people complain that there is nothing after Master, Many People complain that there is no content. These posts are followed by a number of /agree, and a number of /yourethebiggestidiotinthegame replies.
I would argue that both sides of the debate are correct.
There is content, and at the same time, there is no reason to play the content.
The problem with there being no advancement after master title is that it is so easy to get master title. If it took months and months to get master title like it does to get level 70 in another SOE game, then maybe it wouldn't be something to complain about.
Once people are master.. well.. even if there is a lot of content out there, there is little incentive to actually play the content, because all you get to do is accumulate stuff (via credits, what little loot there is, and buying thing) You play knowing that you are no better than anyone else out there, because they just need to run enough credit missions to be able to get the same thing you have.. you're not really any better as a player.
In my opinion, SWG would greatly benefit from there being some way of advacement after master. You don't have to get rid of the skill point system. Add levels after Master
You could come up with a simple solution such as Level 1 Master Rifleman, Level 43 Master Rifleman. You could come up with some number of Imersive Titles.. Legendary Master Rifleman, Mythical Master Rifleman. You would need to have a decent number of levels so that there would be a light at the end of the tunnel to the next level.
I know people say that Galaxies isn't a leveling based game, but I really think it ought to be, and I really think that levelling can fit into the storyline.
Leveling doesn't need to provide new abilities.. it could just increase the abilities obtained at master. Those increased skill abilities would be needed to kill larger and larger versions of the krayt dragon, on farther and farther away planets. These dragons would drop tissues with stats better than the tissues dropped from tat and would make a better weapon...this weapon would have to be made by a weaponsmith from a looted schematic.
My point is that leveling doesn't have to break the current economic or skill point system, and it would give people a reason to play the content that is there.
KlingonUnicorn
Wed Mar 23, 2005 11:36 am
#2
Almost like the Alternate Advancement in EQ? In that sort of respect? Not the exact same thing but that is what I am getting from your post. To give Masters something else to do or grind so to speak. I have to say AA's is what kept alot of people in EQ for so long. There were and are hundreds of them to attain. Not sure how that would work here or if players would want that kind of thing. I wouldnt want to work towards these things unless I get something out of it. New abilities or to enhance my skill mods.
But at the same time something like this would turn the game into a grind which I am sure there are some that want it and some that dont. I am too sure how I feel about it. But.. I do agree somethings need to be added to keep the Masters interested once they have achieved it. I havent seen everything in the game and that is what keeps me going at the possiblility of seeing something new. I've made sure I havent rushed through everything. Heck I havent been to the Geo Caves yet. Been to the Corvette once and died over and over and over. Was a blast though. I havent done all the quests yet either. Only because I want to take my time and not get to the end and go....Now..what?
But that is my play style. Others blaze through and twiddle their thumbs wondering what else there is to do and why they keep paying the $15 a month to keep playing.
If done right..a proper AA system would be a good thing to add. I wouldnt mind it. I didnt mind it in EQ, it gave me something else to work for and look forward to once I achieved it. Being a master of something doesnt mean you dont always keep trying to be better.
Jedi is something I am not interested in at this time, so adding something to the current character I have would be interesting.
EdOWar
Wed Mar 23, 2005 11:36 am
#3
Well, there is a form of advancement after master...FS skills. You can take FS skills without having to becomea Jedi. They also require a lot of xp, so they aren't easy to get very quickly (unless you really want to grind like a madman).
In my view, SWG is like a sandbox. Once you hit master, you can really start to enjoy playing in the sandbox. In games like EQ or WoW, leveling is the only goal and there's usually only one way to achieve that goal. For example, in WoW the goal is hitting level cap (level 60) and outfitting your toon with the best equipment (by running the same instanced dungeons over and over again until you get what you need). The only practical way to achieve the goal is by doing quests. It's very linear.
In SWG though, I set my goals and I am free to achieve those goals as I see fit (within certain constraints of the technology, of course). Admittedly, the sandbox is bigger (so to speak) for crafters and those motivated by the economic aspects of the game...there is more room to set and achieve your goals in that respect.
The sandbox is somewhat smaller for combat players, though they still have the GCW and Jedi to work on (if they so choose). It might be nice if additional tools could be added so that combat players have more freedom to "make their own content"similar to howcrafters/economic players can. The new player event props are a step in that direction, though more could probably be done.
For example, it would be nice if there were a prop that would spawn a creature/NPC for combat players to fight. The creature would drop no loot or money (to avoid abuse), but it's defeat could be a requirement for completing a player-created quest using the event props. That one additional tool alone would make the sandbox infinitely bigger for combat players, creating an endless supply of player content, something WoW would never be able to match with it's puny 2000static quests. 
Slim Vargo, Corbantis
Elurin
Wed Mar 23, 2005 12:26 pm
#4
wow, and I thought that the first response would be.... /yourethebiggestidiotinthegame
lol
lol
Flatfingers
Wed Mar 23, 2005 4:25 pm
#6
EdOWar wrote:
... it would be nice if there were a prop that would spawn a creature/NPC for combat players to fight. The creature would drop no loot or money (to avoid abuse), but it's defeat could be a requirement for completing a player-created quest using the event props. That one additional tool alone would make the sandbox infinitely bigger for combat players, creating an endless supply of player content ...
If you like the idea of endless player content, could I interest you in the next step: Player Contracts (AKA "Player Missions")?
I've described these ideas at length (trust me on this) in myPlayer Contracts: A Design Document and Player Contracts: The Short Version threads, but to give you the condensed version, Ibelieve it's technically feasibleto allow players tomake business deals with each other.
Think of Player Contracts as like the Secure Trade Window on (legal) steroids. Instead of just being able to do a one-time trade with another player, you could set up a recurring deal where every time the other player puts 1000 units of Nabooian Reptile Meat (or whatever you agree on) into the contract box, 10,000 credits aretransferred from your bank account to his. Or you could do a one-shot deal where you pay the other player to destroy a creature lair. (There were plenty of times as a weak crafter with a spider den on my doorstep that I would have liked to have hadthis kind of feature available!)
In fact, contracts could be set up for all kinds of deals. Here's a list ofjust a few contracttypes Ihappened to thinkof:
- Exchange (swap goods for goods or goods for money)
- Tribute (give another player goods or money for an unspecified reason)
- Transport (move items [or player characters] to a specified location)
- Delivery (give items to a specified player character or NPC)
- Recon (go to a particular location)
- Heal (heal or cure a specified player character)
- Buff (improve the stats of a specified player character)
- Entertain (perform within 20 meters of a specified player character or NPC)
- Obtain (take possession of a specified item)
- Destroy (eliminate a specific lair, destroy a unique item, or kill a creature mob)
- Guard (defend a specified player character or NPC for a specified time period)
- Bounty(kill a specified player character or NPC within a specified time period)
- Marriage (marry another player character [allows for divorce, too!])
You get the idea. Each of these would need to be defined to insure that they could be a) completed, and b) nobody gets ripped off, but those are design and technical requirements, and we have the ability to solve those kinds of problems. (Note that thecode tosuccessfully detectmission conditions is already in the game -- NPC quest-givers do it all the time.)Even better, Player Contractswouldn't contribute to inflation, since two players swapping goods and money doesn't add or remove anything from the economy -- it just cyclesmoney around more, which would actually be a Good Thing.
I'd like to see a Player Contracts feature made available to all players, but if the developers had some good reason why being able to propose a contract should only be available to Masters of professions, I could live with that -- at least it would finally be in the game!
So if you like the idea of players being able to make content for each other... how about Player Contracts?
--Flatfingers
EdOWar
Wed Mar 23, 2005 5:02 pm
#7
In general I like the idea of player contracts, though I might quibble on some of the details.From a business perspective, one thing that impedes the economy (somewhat) is the lack of enforceable contracts, so the crafter/merchant in me really likes the concept.
Slim Vargo, Corbantis
Milgram
Wed Mar 23, 2005 5:39 pm
#8
Master XXXX is blah.I was happy when I got to master TKM. However, i got tired of not being able to do any damage to anything. I went to swords. Once I got to master, I thought "Wow, this is pretty cool, i can take out Nightsisters pretty fast." Then Phase II rolled around. I got up to 92 speed. Oh ya, now it really was good times. I could fight elders, and man are those crazy girls fun. I got a +3 speed belt. Holy crap, speed capping is the key to all good things.The difference is truely amazing. The next jump was going from a 600 max damage hammer to a 700 maxdamage.Wow, I couldfight elders withap2 weapons. The next step was the ADK kit. Once I eternaled my hammer, I could power it up to 800 max. Oh ya, now I was really cooking. My next step on the path to true mastery required me to find a master's hammer. Finally, I found someone willing to trade me a 380-868 monster (for a 100% 250 mind fire rifle and an ADK). Wow, now i really feel like a master swordsman. I just got my 90% composite minisuit ADKed, and wow, once again, what a difference. Now, I can honestly consider myself to be a true PvE master swordsman. However, I am not a Master swordsman yet. In PvP i am little better than a noob with good equipment. If i truely want to be a master Swordsman in every sense of the word, I have a lot of PvP work to do.
Holo grinding produced a lot of profession "masters". If you want to call that mastery. This may shock some of you, but the dude you see running around with master swordsman above his head and a scythe in his hand aint a "master Swordsman." It is some poor un-speedcapped sucka who still has a lot of work to do. Have you ever had a random Master Weaponsmith make you a weapon with some nice krayt tissue only to leave his shop shaking your head thinking "What was I thinking, that guy doesn't know anything"? He isn't a true master either. Have you ever asked a master doctor to heal your wounds and he says "sorry, all i can do is buff."Calling that guy a master doctor would be likecalling the guy who injects bo-tox (probably spelled wrong) a master doctor.
SWG may provide "masters" with a master title, but true mastery takes more thangrinding quenker missions or making and eating soy-pro. True mastery comes from months and months of finding resources, getting all the necessary SEAs, and learning the ins and outs of the profession, not flying a master tag.
EdOWar
Wed Mar 23, 2005 5:59 pm
#9
Milgram wrote:
Master XXXX is blah.I was happy when I got to master TKM. However, i got tired of not being able to do any damage to anything. I went to swords. Once I got to master, I thought "Wow, this is pretty cool, i can take out Nightsisters pretty fast." Then Phase II rolled around. I got up to 92 speed. Oh ya, now it really was good times. I could fight elders, and man are those crazy girls fun. I got a +3 speed belt. Holy crap, speed capping is the key to all good things.The difference is truely amazing. The next jump was going from a 600 max damage hammer to a 700 maxdamage.Wow, I couldfight elders withap2 weapons. The next step was the ADK kit. Once I eternaled my hammer, I could power it up to 800 max. Oh ya, now I was really cooking. My next step on the path to true mastery required me to find a master's hammer. Finally, I found someone willing to trade me a 380-868 monster (for a 100% 250 mind fire rifle and an ADK). Wow, now i really feel like a master swordsman. I just got my 90% composite minisuit ADKed, and wow, once again, what a difference. Now, I can honestly consider myself to be a true PvE master swordsman. However, I am not a Master swordsman yet. In PvP i am little better than a noob with good equipment. If i truely want to be a master Swordsman in every sense of the word, I have a lot of PvP work to do.
Holo grinding produced a lot of profession "masters". If you want to call that mastery. This may shock some of you, but the dude you see running around with master swordsman above his head and a scythe in his hand aint a "master Swordsman." It is some poor un-speedcapped sucka who still has a lot of work to do. Have you ever had a random Master Weaponsmith make you a weapon with some nice krayt tissue only to leave his shop shaking your head thinking "What was I thinking, that guy doesn't know anything"? He isn't a true master either. Have you ever asked a master doctor to heal your wounds and he says "sorry, all i can do is buff."Calling that guy a master doctor would be likecalling the guy who injects bo-tox (probably spelled wrong) a master doctor.
SWG may provide "masters" with a master title, but true mastery takes more thangrinding quenker missions or making and eating soy-pro. True mastery comes from months and months of finding resources, getting all the necessary SEAs, and learning the ins and outs of the profession, not flying a master tag.
Truth. Though I just found out my Swordsman alt is a "poor un-speedcapped sucka" who still has a lot of work to do, lol. 
Slim Vargo, Corbantis
Exhibit69
Thu Mar 24, 2005 4:49 pm
#10
If you want levels, allow me to direct you to WOW or EQ2 <points the way to the Electronic Boutique>
Getting a master title is hardly the be-all and end-all of this game. The joy for me is exploring each profession, discovering new monsters and sentients, trying out something new. I have been in game for well over a year now, and i believe i have hardly scratched the surface of what this games offers.
Elurin
Fri Mar 25, 2005 1:57 am
#11
Milgram wrote:SWG may provide "masters" with a master title, but true mastery takes more than grinding quenker missions or making and eating soy-pro. True mastery comes from months and months of finding resources, getting all the necessary SEAs, and learning the ins and outs of the profession, not flying a master tag.
I agree, but.. there is a flaw in game design if Master doesn't really mean Master. The impression given when you get master title is that you're complete. If that is not the case, then then need to fix it.. I'm saying add levels after master..you're saying there there is a lot in between master and MASTER well.. people need to know that based on an easily comparable game provided yard stick.
aka..levels
Milgram
Fri Mar 25, 2005 2:54 pm
#12
Elurin wrote:
Milgram wrote:
SWG may provide "masters" with a master title, but true mastery takes more than grinding quenker missions or making and eating soy-pro. True mastery comes from months and months of finding resources, getting all the necessary SEAs, and learning the ins and outs of the profession, not flying a master tag.
I agree, but.. there is a flaw in game design if Master doesn't really mean Master. The impression given when you get master title is that you're complete. If that is not the case, then then need to fix it.. I'm saying add levels after master..you're saying there there is a lot in between master and MASTER well.. people need to know that based on an easily comparable game provided yard stick.
aka..levels
Please, devs, please please don't turn this game into EQ2 or WoW. Once those poor saps get to level 60, or whatever, they really do have nowhere to go. If novice swordsman was changed to "noob holding stick with two hands" and master was changed to "novice swordsman" would that help you out? I don't know why I need the devs to tell me how good I am. In each stage i described in my reply, i got better. How do i know I am a PvE master? I compare myself against the MOBs i am fighting, and against others fighting them, andevaluate myself to be at the top of my game. I know i am a novice PvPnovice because i get nuked.
If you really need someone else to tell you how good you are, please, allow me: You are little more than a novice and have a lot of work to do. I hope that helps.
bluejanus
Sat Mar 26, 2005 1:21 pm
#13
Elurin wrote:
There are a number of threads discussing these things either seperatly, or some level of tying them together.
Many people complain that there is nothing after Master, Many People complain that there is no content. These posts are followed by a number of /agree, and a number of /yourethebiggestidiotinthegame replies.
I would argue that both sides of the debate are correct.
There is content, and at the same time, there is no reason to play the content.
The problem with there being no advancement after master title is that it is so easy to get master title. If it took months and months to get master title like it does to get level 70 in another SOE game, then maybe it wouldn't be something to complain about.
Once people are master.. well.. even if there is a lot of content out there, there is little incentive to actually play the content, because all you get to do is accumulate stuff (via credits, what little loot there is, and buying thing) You play knowing that you are no better than anyone else out there, because they just need to run enough credit missions to be able to get the same thing you have.. you're not really any better as a player.
In my opinion, SWG would greatly benefit from there being some way of advacement after master. You don't have to get rid of the skill point system. Add levels after Master
You could come up with a simple solution such as Level 1 Master Rifleman, Level 43 Master Rifleman. You could come up with some number of Imersive Titles.. Legendary Master Rifleman, Mythical Master Rifleman. You would need to have a decent number of levels so that there would be a light at the end of the tunnel to the next level.
I know people say that Galaxies isn't a leveling based game, but I really think it ought to be, and I really think that levelling can fit into the storyline.
Leveling doesn't need to provide new abilities.. it could just increase the abilities obtained at master. Those increased skill abilities would be needed to kill larger and larger versions of the krayt dragon, on farther and farther away planets. These dragons would drop tissues with stats better than the tissues dropped from tat and would make a better weapon...this weapon would have to be made by a weaponsmith from a looted schematic.
My point is that leveling doesn't have to break the current economic or skill point system, and it would give people a reason to play the content that is there.
You do realize some professions are easier to master than others, right? Like Architect, Squad Leader and Creature Handler. Making an alternative system based on experience would be a joke to these professions. As it would for a bunch of other professions to a lesser degree. I'm not sure what an alternate system would confer, but the benefits you gave shouldn't go. We already have a system for benefits like that you cancheck it out once you glow and visit a village. If you're going to have an alternate system like this the benefits can't be as good or even similiar to that of the village. The benefits should be somewhat incremental to your current skills excluding things like experimentation and speed. Maybe a minor resist or extra socials or something that can't be traded or enhance your business. The force user benefits come at a cost. This alternate system sounds like it would cost no skillpoints or really anything other than experience. Village-type benefits would give an unusual edge to these professions without exposing them to the village's risks. And as we can see from the ADKs, structure decay changes, the galaxy vendor search, the 75k credits, the resource kits and free landspeeders that the Devs are aware of the newcomer's difficulties.
Tne end game of this game isn't mastery of a profession. The end game is what you participate in afterwards and during your profession exp-ing.
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