Business And Economy Archive
Thread: DEVs trying to control economy . A theory .
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DeliAmber
Fri Feb 18, 2005 4:08 am
#1
Well , I think some alarms about game economy turned on at some game analist office .
Scenario : Economy in-game is not working properly, due to :
- Economy has developed a high inflaction. As an example, goods of common use as BUFFs had gone from 5k to 10-15k in a matter of months. That is nearly a 100% inflaction in a 6 months period, one of the most dangerous problems any closed economy can face.
- There seem to be a very small percentage of players who control a big percentage of circulating money. This is usealy refered as the 20/80 rule . 20% of population controling 80% of the resources / SWG money in this case. Elite crafters with healthy bussines and powergamers-ninjalooters-lootcampers are included in this But probably in SWG this could be 10/90 . Also, another big problem is the "middle class" seem to be small , about maybe 10-15% .
- So prices are rated "very high" . This is a huge barrier for new gamers to join the game. The learning time to SWG is probably one of the slowest in mmorpgs as it is probably the most complicated one in terms of templates options, crafting posibilities, etc .. and adding that to high prices makes it dificult for new players to enjoy good items in the short term.
How to resolve it :
- REduce the money income in the economy . In "real" econnomy this is done by "altering" what is usaly called "price of money", in the US is the federal reserver who set the price and in Euro-zone the European Central Bank. So if money is "spencive" in terms of home loans, credits , etc ..., then the population consumes less, then there is a lower demand, and therefor prices go down. How can this be done in SWG ? Reduce money income from its very original source : missions . You all know about solo groups , etc ... SO this way, when there is less money in-game , base players cant afford hight prices, this means a reduction in the good's demands, which take us to a over-production of goods and , as they are not sold, prices go down untill they are sold. SO this way inflaction can be controled.
- Above is ok for crafters , but still ther is the problem of the powergamers-ninjalooters-lootcampers who control most of the auctions and "1337 loot" in game. How to resolve it ? Get more of this loot in game , as much as there is not enought powergamers-ninjalooters-lootcampers to control it all. Crazy dragon spawn, POIs spawns increased and time reduced, etc ....
- But still there is a BIG barrier , what in Marketing is known as "entrance barrier to a market". This is the elite crafters market and their goods. SWG have 2 big barriers :
1st barrier : Experimentation points . This is resolved with spawn increase at POIs . I think if they get more NS in dathomir they are going to have to change the planet's name, call it NighSismir or something like that
, lord niax spanwing every 20 minutes , and blood crazed missions at endor, just to give 3 examples .
2nd Barrier : Ubber Resources . What makes the diference in crafting if you have your 12 points ? Resources. "Ancient crafters" , crafters in the same profession since beta, have all the ubber recources since star , and some of them may take months to appear again, even if they do. How to resolve this ?? 30k of any resource in game since 1st day !! It is not very dificult to forecast an overoffer of most common goods during the next weeks, that will take prices dramaticaly down .
The 2 most important barriers to become an elite crafter had been erase by DEvs, now is way easier to get the exp point and the resources. And current crafters will have more ubber resources than they ever dreamed about so ...
So the conclusion : DEVs are spending lots of efforts making a much more "friendly economy" , where this big differences between players can be reduced, trying to reduce inflaction, getting more goods into the game, etc ...
Lets see prices in 1 - 2 month
Scenario : Economy in-game is not working properly, due to :
- Economy has developed a high inflaction. As an example, goods of common use as BUFFs had gone from 5k to 10-15k in a matter of months. That is nearly a 100% inflaction in a 6 months period, one of the most dangerous problems any closed economy can face.
- There seem to be a very small percentage of players who control a big percentage of circulating money. This is usealy refered as the 20/80 rule . 20% of population controling 80% of the resources / SWG money in this case. Elite crafters with healthy bussines and powergamers-ninjalooters-lootcampers are included in this But probably in SWG this could be 10/90 . Also, another big problem is the "middle class" seem to be small , about maybe 10-15% .
- So prices are rated "very high" . This is a huge barrier for new gamers to join the game. The learning time to SWG is probably one of the slowest in mmorpgs as it is probably the most complicated one in terms of templates options, crafting posibilities, etc .. and adding that to high prices makes it dificult for new players to enjoy good items in the short term.
How to resolve it :
- REduce the money income in the economy . In "real" econnomy this is done by "altering" what is usaly called "price of money", in the US is the federal reserver who set the price and in Euro-zone the European Central Bank. So if money is "spencive" in terms of home loans, credits , etc ..., then the population consumes less, then there is a lower demand, and therefor prices go down. How can this be done in SWG ? Reduce money income from its very original source : missions . You all know about solo groups , etc ... SO this way, when there is less money in-game , base players cant afford hight prices, this means a reduction in the good's demands, which take us to a over-production of goods and , as they are not sold, prices go down untill they are sold. SO this way inflaction can be controled.
- Above is ok for crafters , but still ther is the problem of the powergamers-ninjalooters-lootcampers who control most of the auctions and "1337 loot" in game. How to resolve it ? Get more of this loot in game , as much as there is not enought powergamers-ninjalooters-lootcampers to control it all. Crazy dragon spawn, POIs spawns increased and time reduced, etc ....
- But still there is a BIG barrier , what in Marketing is known as "entrance barrier to a market". This is the elite crafters market and their goods. SWG have 2 big barriers :
1st barrier : Experimentation points . This is resolved with spawn increase at POIs . I think if they get more NS in dathomir they are going to have to change the planet's name, call it NighSismir or something like that
, lord niax spanwing every 20 minutes , and blood crazed missions at endor, just to give 3 examples .2nd Barrier : Ubber Resources . What makes the diference in crafting if you have your 12 points ? Resources. "Ancient crafters" , crafters in the same profession since beta, have all the ubber recources since star , and some of them may take months to appear again, even if they do. How to resolve this ?? 30k of any resource in game since 1st day !! It is not very dificult to forecast an overoffer of most common goods during the next weeks, that will take prices dramaticaly down .
The 2 most important barriers to become an elite crafter had been erase by DEvs, now is way easier to get the exp point and the resources. And current crafters will have more ubber resources than they ever dreamed about so ...
So the conclusion : DEVs are spending lots of efforts making a much more "friendly economy" , where this big differences between players can be reduced, trying to reduce inflaction, getting more goods into the game, etc ...
Lets see prices in 1 - 2 month
GraySeven
Fri Feb 18, 2005 9:39 am
#2
Inflation can not happen in this game. Inflation is a changing of the worth of a currency by outside forces. The in-game credit is still worth what it was always worth, its just that the manner of accumulating said credit has been changed.
Solo group payouts have been nerfed, so that now the max mission payouts for a solo are down about 10k or so.
Price changes have nothing to so with outside forces, and everything to do with what people choose to charge. I haven't seen the change in Buffs you threw out as an example. They have always ranged between 8-12k. Occassionally, you'll pay up to 15k on Dath or Endor but that is only the choice of the seller, not any economic reason.
New players have the same ability to earn credits adjusted to their skill level as everyone else. A noob has no need of 80/70 composite and a sliced T-21. A noob simply has to have enough credits to train to his next skill level and purchase equipment equivallent to his or her skill level. As they gain skill, both their needs and their income rises. By the time they Master a couple of professions, they have the ability to earn as much as others of the same skill level even though the others have been at it longer and have more saved income.
Your suggestions for crafters basically invalidate everything current crafters have done, in effect penalizing long term crafters to accomodate new crafters...no way. While I agree some system to make valid the production of lower skill crafters, doing it via hurting higher skilled and established crafters is not the answer unless you want to alienate a large player base.
As for resource spawns, too bad. People who have payed to play this game for a long period of time can not be penalized just because someone doesn't want to take the same amount of time the longer players have to collect resources. We've all been in the same boat at one time or the other. The newer harvesters will just have to wait for the next spawn of HQ resources, just as we older crafters did.
The current changes are less the Dev's "fixing" the economy and more the Dev's "fixing" what has long been broken. That these changes may or may not have an effect on the player-economy will only be seen in the long run. The boat may rock, but in the end it will settle back down.
pircio
Fri Feb 18, 2005 5:11 pm
#3
Personally I feel that the Dev's are trying to "fix the economy." Evidence: First with the new loot... with Nyax respawning every 20 minutes and krayts chasing my arse down on tatooine every 15 seconds its easy to say that they're trying to get the more rare stuff into circulation to bring the cost down. Second, new loot types takes the focus away from the usual items and all of a sudden we have people buying this and that from all sorts of people with new prices for new stuff. Third I also feel that the new veteran rewards were also a ploy to move money around. Anti-decay kits are going for at least 10mil on our server, 3-5 for the resource kits, and 1-2 mil for the harvester ones... giving even the little guy a good chunk of change. Lastly the new vendor changes that have been shot down by most of the community... i believe its objective is to not only reduce search time, but to also allow the little guy to become a little more mainstream to pull customers away from the big money guys that everyone knows. This isn't really an economy fix in the sense that they are trying to take money out of the economy... they're "redistributing wealth", or trying to.
the problem is all the new money that everyone is getting is just going to eventually fall back into the hands of the crafters and big game hunters, who know how to take what they get from buying all of this new loot and turn it into even more money
until they can find a large money sink thats going to pull from the big money makers then the economy will never balance the way they'd like it to
WiseBobo
Fri Feb 18, 2005 6:15 pm
#4
As with all RPG's, the economy in Star Wars Galaxies will of course, finish the loop in the cycle. A loop in which "everyone will have everything until the new "it" thing is all the rage". Of course you could break it down further, but that is essentially what it is.
Milgram
Sun Feb 20, 2005 5:46 am
#5
First, let me preface this by saying i do not advocate buying or selling credits on ebay/any other vendor. It is against the User agreement and shouldn't be done. However, people do, and that is a fact that cannot be ignored. This reality does serve a use to those of us who try to monitor the economy and plan our moves on what we think is going to happen in the future.
I think the real way to measure the streignth of the ingame economy is to compare prices to ebay. It basically gives you aabsolute value of the credit. Credits fell to about $4-4.5 per million, but have since rebounded to $6-7.Most of this is due to the solo group nerf (though in my mind 500k per hour is extremely inefficient).This has important implications on what you pay for high dollar items, and how you price your goods.At $4 per million, it was wise to invest in crystals/pearls,as these, at the time, retained their absolute value relative to the dollar, not the credit. Now that the credit ison the raise, it is wise to invest in credits, or buy decay kits/resource deeds. Pearls/crystals should be quickly sold for now, then horded about a month out from the combat nerf (if you think you will be able to solo more than a nuna, think again).
Ironicaly, Ebay seems to be one of the things that stabalizes the economy. Crafters sell credits which they otherwise can't dream of spending (how many t21's does 100 million buy?). Jedi buy the credits, and spend them on the things that noble jedi need, high power sea's, food, crystals/pearls, buffs and decay/resource kits.
Phonelesscord
Thu Mar 03, 2005 6:40 am
#6
We could do like mexico, chop off the lasyt two digits on all amounts of money and vendor prices.
makittot
Thu Mar 03, 2005 12:37 pm
#7
GraySeven wrote:
Inflation can not happen in this game. Inflation is a changing of the worth of a currency by outside forces. The in-game credit is still worth what it was always worth, its just that the manner of accumulating said credit has been changed.
You need to take an economics class.
When I started the game buffs were 5k then they went up to 10k, then jumped 14k, then the free recourse deeds came out now buffs are back to 10k.
Anoch
Thu Mar 03, 2005 2:22 pm
#8
yeah that was a de-10 pistol selling for no less then 50 mil. The 80 mil was a bit high of an estimate, sorry lol. But definetely no less then 50.
The max on it was well around 500 unpupped i think.
Also seen acklay hammers around 1k max unpupped go for 20-30 mil..
its true.
Kalano
Thu Mar 03, 2005 2:46 pm
#9
What would really change the economy?
A revamp on the crafting system. Instead of treating it as an ends to the mean for the combatants as the crafting profession has been treated. Also remove the 1000 item schematics which were an exploite that devs gave into, reduce the factory support on end items.
Open up the crafting world to more players that do not have to grind to master before being able to compete. This would open the market to a lot lower cost items and also increase only the top end items.
SW was made almost to a perfect start of a revamp crafting system, then they nerf the heck out of it instead of tweaking it and making everyone happy.
The economy has problems because one of the major factors of it has been scrutinized, nerfed, thrown dog bones, and not seriously looked at.
You want to correct the problems. Get the CU completed and then do a Crafting Upgrade after. Its a player economy game but way to much has been put on combat and so little has been placed on the crafting end.
This is my opinion. I don't claim it to be humble or unbiased. But it is truely what i feel and see as a big issue that has been sweeped way to much under the rug.
EdOWar
Thu Mar 03, 2005 3:28 pm
#10
Anoch wrote:
yeah that was a de-10 pistol selling for no less then 50 mil. The 80 mil was a bit high of an estimate, sorry lol. But definetely no less then 50.
The max on it was well around 500 unpupped i think.
Also seen acklay hammers around 1k max unpupped go for 20-30 mil..
its true.
Even for a DE-10 50 million sounds way to high to me, but economies are different for each server. None-the-less, a DE-10 is a Master Pistoleer weapon, hardly something a new player needs. Also, DE-10s aren't that good unless you put nice krayt tissue in them, which brings up the cost. Each schematic is only one use, and usually costs around 500K (at least on Corbantis), and a yellow barrel costs another 500K to 1 million.
But ultimately, none of that matters because, as I said before, it's the buyer that sets the price in the end, not the seller.
Slim Vargo, Corbantis
bluejanus
Thu Mar 03, 2005 8:45 pm
#11
makittot wrote:
GraySeven wrote:Inflation can not happen in this game. Inflation is a changing of the worth of a currency by outside forces. The in-game credit is still worth what it was always worth, its just that the manner of accumulating said credit has been changed.You need to take an economics class.When I started the game buffs were 5k then they went up to 10k, then jumped 14k, then the free recourse deeds came out now buffs are back to 10k.
The poster that talked about inflation is on Radiant. GreySeven is on Starsider. The person I'm quoting is from Flurry. Would you guys mind telling us how buff price variations on your server somehow mean that that's same variation occurring on every server? On Kettemoor, they've ranged 8k-12k. And quality has gone up since buffs started to be used. They'd have to since we've had a number of doctor resource droughts.
Anthemion
Thu Mar 03, 2005 10:06 pm
#12
A credit is only worth what you can buy with it.
For the new player, the things that they need should be available and affordable(they can't use T-21s if you remember). So intermediate crafters need to be able to make the items noobs need, and make them well. Also, it would be good if crafters can make marketable products at all experience levels as they gain xp.
For the new player, the things that they need should be available and affordable(they can't use T-21s if you remember). So intermediate crafters need to be able to make the items noobs need, and make them well. Also, it would be good if crafters can make marketable products at all experience levels as they gain xp.
Milgram
Fri Mar 04, 2005 12:55 am
#13
makittot wrote:
GraySeven wrote:
Inflation can not happen in this game. Inflation is a changing of the worth of a currency by outside forces. The in-game credit is still worth what it was always worth, its just that the manner of accumulating said credit has been changed.
You need to take an economics class.
When I started the game buffs were 5k then they went up to 10k, then jumped 14k, then the free recourse deeds came out now buffs are back to 10k.
If you want to go back to 5k buffs that do 1500 and last 2.5 hours, be my guest. As for myself, I will stick with 12k buffs for 2590 that last 3.75 hours. In fact, if you think buffs aren't worth it, I double dare you to never get buffed ever again.
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