Business And Economy Archive
Thread: DEVs trying to control economy . A theory .
DeliAmber wrote:
Well , I think some alarms about game economy turned on at some game analist office .
Scenario : Economy in-game is not working properly, due to :
- Economy has developed a high inflaction. As an example, goods of common use as BUFFs had gone from 5k to 10-15k in a matter of months. That is nearly a 100% inflaction in a 6 months period, one of the most dangerous problems any closed economy can face.
- There seem to be a very small percentage of players who control a big percentage of circulating money. This is usealy refered as the 20/80 rule . 20% of population controling 80% of the resources / SWG money in this case. Elite crafters with healthy bussines and powergamers-ninjalooters-lootcampers are included in this But probably in SWG this could be 10/90 . Also, another big problem is the "middle class" seem to be small , about maybe 10-15% .
- So prices are rated "very high" . This is a huge barrier for new gamers to join the game. The learning time to SWG is probably one of the slowest in mmorpgs as it is probably the most complicated one in terms of templates options, crafting posibilities, etc .. and adding that to high prices makes it dificult for new players to enjoy good items in the short term.
How to resolve it :
- REduce the money income in the economy . In "real" econnomy this is done by "altering" what is usaly called "price of money", in the US is the federal reserver who set the price and in Euro-zone the European Central Bank. So if money is "spencive" in terms of home loans, credits , etc ..., then the population consumes less, then there is a lower demand, and therefor prices go down. How can this be done in SWG ? Reduce money income from its very original source : missions . You all know about solo groups , etc ... SO this way, when there is less money in-game , base players cant afford hight prices, this means a reduction in the good's demands, which take us to a over-production of goods and , as they are not sold, prices go down untill they are sold. SO this way inflaction can be controled.
- Above is ok for crafters , but still ther is the problem of the powergamers-ninjalooters-lootcampers who control most of the auctions and "1337 loot" in game. How to resolve it ? Get more of this loot in game , as much as there is not enought powergamers-ninjalooters-lootcampers to control it all. Crazy dragon spawn, POIs spawns increased and time reduced, etc ....
- But still there is a BIG barrier , what in Marketing is known as "entrance barrier to a market". This is the elite crafters market and their goods. SWG have 2 big barriers :
1st barrier : Experimentation points . This is resolved with spawn increase at POIs . I think if they get more NS in dathomir they are going to have to change the planet's name, call it NighSismir or something like that, lord niax spanwing every 20 minutes , and blood crazed missions at endor, just to give 3 examples .
2nd Barrier : Ubber Resources . What makes the diference in crafting if you have your 12 points ? Resources. "Ancient crafters" , crafters in the same profession since beta, have all the ubber recources since star , and some of them may take months to appear again, even if they do. How to resolve this ?? 30k of any resource in game since 1st day !! It is not very dificult to forecast an overoffer of most common goods during the next weeks, that will take prices dramaticaly down .
The 2 most important barriers to become an elite crafter had been erase by DEvs, now is way easier to get the exp point and the resources. And current crafters will have more ubber resources than they ever dreamed about so ...
So the conclusion : DEVs are spending lots of efforts making a much more "friendly economy" , where this big differences between players can be reduced, trying to reduce inflaction, getting more goods into the game, etc ...
Lets see prices in 1 - 2 month
Having pvp and pve'ers on the same server is also killing the economy. Although i like having the option of going either way....i think its really tough to keep both evils happy. Ive seen a master WS Charge 50-80 mil for some good weapon he crafted. Why did he charge this much? Because he could.
To gather the resources and materials to craft this mightve totally costed him 500k. Paying a fighter for his buffs/travel and some extra on the side, and some othe fees.
See what im getting at?
When the game is this far into its life, with thesolo groups and whatnot we had before, people have a LOT of money to spend. With new players coming into the game it will be very hard for them to be able to buy anything.
This is only encouraging people to go buy ebay credits or something. Hence, again...killing our economy.
Heh I would be happy to. Even better, I'd prefer to get rid of buffs altogether and balance the combat system so that you can just log on and start playing
I have fun fighting NPCs without buffs, it's obviously more of a challenge. But the entire content of the game, including PVP, is based around a character who is buffed for 2500-3000 points, so simply swearing off buffs forever isn't exactly the most realistic option until the combat thingy changes the whole system.
However Isander is right that price fluctuations on one server don't say anything about prices on any other servers.
O.
Kalano wrote:
What would really change the economy?
A revamp on the crafting system. Instead of treating it as an ends to the mean for the combatants as the crafting profession has been treated. Also remove the 1000 item schematics which were an exploite that devs gave into, reduce the factory support on end items.
Open up the crafting world to more players that do not have to grind to master before being able to compete. This would open the market to a lot lower cost items and also increase only the top end items.
SW was made almost to a perfect start of a revamp crafting system, then they nerf the heck out of it instead of tweaking it and making everyone happy.
The economy has problems because one of the major factors of it has been scrutinized, nerfed, thrown dog bones, and not seriously looked at.
You want to correct the problems. Get the CU completed and then do a Crafting Upgrade after. Its a player economy game but way to much has been put on combat and so little has been placed on the crafting end.
This is my opinion. I don't claim it to be humble or unbiased. But it is truely what i feel and see as a big issue that has been sweeped way to much under the rug.
phuck j00 if you think that would solve anything. do you know how much is involved in making A buffpack?? do you realize you HAVE tohave factory crated components that are identical by serial, which only works with a factory?? do you realize how LONG it would take to make a decent set of buffpacks without a factory? and do you realize how much more docs are going to charge for buffing at that point? I sell full sets of buffpacks at 120k, 929 base power for over 3.5 hrs with 30 uses, and that's cheap, for any server. the reason why i make them so cheap is because i can make sets of 50 at a time, which usually takes about 6 days for everything to make, only 1 of which is end product. so if you take those factories away it will take me 10 times longer to make that much product by hand (which technically isn't even possible). IF i stick with crafting for a "living" I can garantee you I can charge 5 times more than I do now and get away with it because no one else will put up with that BS if someone else will. And as it stands, anyone that wants to go kill effectively and stay alive killing the hard stuff for more than 10 seconds will pay whatever is being asked for a buff. because you can't kill the high end stuff without it, go try,I dare you.So before you go making assumptions that this would open up the market to new people you're highly mistaken, who would want to be in a market like that??
The only thing that keeps new people from entering the market is time and dedication. You can't be like "I think i'll be a doctor and make buffpacks tomorrow." what keeps anyone from entering the crafting stream of this game is resources, you can't be successful if you don't have the resources that the other guys in your field do. Once you get them though, there is no difference in the product that you can make. It took me 6 months to get the resources I needed to get started, and I am by no means the biggest doctor on my server, but I am self-sufficient and have the resources i need to continue my crafting for some time.
The reason why you need to be a master at a combat prof is because if your not your product sucks. If you had a choice between, lets say a pistol that your guildmate made with a 100 max damage who is a novice weaponsmithvs the same exact pistol from a master weaponsmith with a 200 max damage and had to spend 5k more to get it, which would you pick?the better one, and you know it. it might cost more but it its better. poeple want the best, and they are willing to spend a little more, or the same priceto get better. everyone has a choice to either buy from the new guy, or the other guy with better stuff. why does he have better stuff? because he/she has spent the time to get the resources and learn what it takes to make the good stuff. w/o factories you will see a fraction of new entry to the market for crafting. no one is going to spend the countless hours that you're suggesting to try to compete with someone that has the time or the means to work without it.
One last thing before I stop flaming you... do you have ANY idea how BUSY weapon and armorsmiths are going to be with the CU? All the new weapons and armor that they're going to have to make? If you want that new weapon the day it comes out, who's going to have it? Mr "2234" weaponsmith or the guy that's been master for a year? Who is going to have the means to produce enough of it so that the first 10 people don't buy him out? and do you want to be able to afford that weapon or that new armor suit? because if the veteran smiths are the only ones willing to make it, and no one else is, and they don't have factories, they'll charge 10 times more for the 10 times more amount of time they spent on it. Good luck in your magical world where you think less factory supportmeans easier market entry. whether or not you want to believe it us crafters are here for you, and us doctors are here for you so you can get things done. until the CU, you need us, and we don't snub you and say look somewhere else, we sit at starports and wait for you to come to us, so its convenient for you.
/flame off
Kalano wrote:What would really change the economy?A revamp on the crafting system. Instead of treating it as an ends to the mean for the combatants as the crafting profession has been treated. Also remove the 1000 item schematics which were an exploite that devs gave into, reduce the factory support on end items.Open up the crafting world to more players that do not have to grind to master before being able to compete. This would open the market to a lot lower cost items and also increase only the top end items.SW was made almost to a perfect start of a revamp crafting system, then they nerf the heck out of it instead of tweaking it and making everyone happy.The economy has problems because one of the major factors of it has been scrutinized, nerfed, thrown dog bones, and not seriously looked at.You want to correct the problems. Get the CU completed and then do a Crafting Upgrade after. Its a player economy game but way to much has been put on combat and so little has been placed on the crafting end.This is my opinion. I don't claim it to be humble or unbiased. But it is truely what i feel and see as a big issue that has been sweeped way to much under the rug.
You cannot compete as a SW before you are master, only for chassis, and even then they are not as good as those of a master.
FantasticPlastic wrote:
"If you want to go back to 5k buffs that do 1500 and last 2.5 hours"
Heh I would be happy to. Even better, I'd prefer to get rid of buffs altogether and balance the combat system so that you can just log on and start playing
I have fun fighting NPCs without buffs, it's obviously more of a challenge. But the entire content of the game, including PVP, is based around a character who is buffed for 2500-3000 points, so simply swearing off buffs forever isn't exactly the most realistic option until the combat thingy changes the whole system.
However Isander is right that price fluctuations on one server don't say anything about prices on any other servers.
O.
andrew_profit wrote:If SWG wants to make this game playable again. They need to make loot a viable alternative to player made goods. Also they need to make those mobs which drop the decent loot deficult so that those mobs cannot be soloed but must be farmed by groups of players. I know its a social concept grouping and SWG has done its best to remove the need for grouping but that is one of the more enjoyable aspects of a mmorg. After all the second m is multiplayer.
I'm a little confused by this post. What does the economy gain by replacing crafted goods by looted ones?... If I can make money killing and get all my weapons and armor from them that is just as good as crafted. Why do we need the smiths at all? I think looting components that will make stuff more uber is the way to go.
bluejanus wrote:
makittot wrote:
GraySeven wrote:
Inflation can not happen in this game. Inflation is a changing of the worth of a currency by outside forces. The in-game credit is still worth what it was always worth, its just that the manner of accumulating said credit has been changed.
You need to take an economics class.
When I started the game buffs were 5k then they went up to 10k, then jumped 14k, then the free recourse deeds came out now buffs are back to 10k.
The poster that talked about inflation is on Radiant. GreySeven is on Starsider. The person I'm quoting is from Flurry. Would you guys mind telling us how buff price variations on your server somehow mean that that's same variation occurring on every server? On Kettemoor, they've ranged 8k-12k. And quality has gone up since buffs started to be used. They'd have to since we've had a number of doctor resource droughts.
Regardless of server, Makittot is right. GreySeven needs to take an economics class. Inflation is the devalution of currency due to various forces, one of which is an increased amount of said currency in circulation. When people were pulling in millions a day via solo-groups, money was pouring into the economy than ever before. That produced inflation due to the devalutation of the Imperial Credit.
On most servers, doctors used to charge 1k per buffed stat, or 5k for a full set. This was discussed many times on the doc boards. Then things started to gradually increase to the point that people don't bat an eye at a 15k cost for buffs. That is due to more money being in circulation, thus people paying more for the same quality item that existed before.
Did buffs get harder to make? No. Do "pre-fix" buffs still exist? Yes. In fact, I'm still using crates of buffs from before the buff "fix."
To the person asking if we want to go back to 1500/2.5 hour buffs, are you unaware that, at one time, 750 power packs could buff for more than 3400?
Coming in I knew players could make and sell weapons better then the CDEF junk I was looting, I browsed vendors and found there were plenty of weapons for sale that were better than what I had, and all it took was saving a little bit (like running 3-4 missions using my CDEF rifle, then I could afford to move into a nicer laser rifle)
The problem here is there are too many assumptions being made about the economy. When I hear someone saying noobs cant afford a gun, I have to ask when is the last time you went shopping for a gun that is appropriate for a noob? I beelive you are assuming that all new players are going to go grind as fast as they can and will only want the most expensive weapons.
This assumption is invalid when spread across the player base because people play different than you do.
I know there can be T21s & DXR6bs far better than the ones I carry, but I found mine get the job done still, and only cost me between 40-80k, not the 250,000 - 1 million I have witnessed for some weapons. And more often than not when I see a high priced gun like that, I can go somewhere else and find it for half that.
You are trying to paint these high end weapons as necessities for daily life when they are in fact high priced luxury items. There are weapons priced according to the quality, stats and rarity of the item, and you dont have to look hard to find a decent weapon that fits a price point that even the poorest player can afford.
In this its the PLAYERS that have created the funky economy, not the DEVS. Players are the ones telling every new player they will be useless unless they get 90% comp/stun armor a Krayt T21 and Vibro-Knucklers, that they will be poor poodoo-shovelers unless they pharm dragon pearls and jetpack bases. If you buy into the herd mentality that says you have to buy x, y, z to be successful then, well things will seem borked if you dont have the cash. Are thes realistic expectations to lay on a noob? hell no!
So the crafters responded to the demand, since PLAYERS are creating guides that say a new player needs all this stuff to be happy and functional, they price the stuff to meet the demand (and lets face it MMO gamers are a 'GOT TO HAVE IT NOW NOW NOW NOW' bunch, thus the crafters stick it to them with the million credit prices for high end items. The crafters are smart because they know how some gamers can act like impatient tools who will pay whatever they demand as long as they get the uberest item NOW.
For those with paitence, the economy is just fine, i think some players just need to get a handle on their spending, maybe shop around more, and not be dropping so much money so fast. (good thing they dont have credit cards in game or I bet players would be in debt up to their ears much like in r/l)
Now I know outside serives that sell credits for r/l cash have quite an influence on this and create artifical inflation, again this isnt the DEVS fault, this is bad behavior by a 3rd party and again, by the PLAYERS. These services run off basically toons /afk grinding collecting credits that they turn around and sell - techincally a player could sit there and do the same thing but it would take effort and time on the players part. Buying the credits is far easier, and thus enables a subset of people to pay these huge prices for stuff (and it would not suprise me in the LEAST to find out the merchants selling the million credit items are run by the same outfit that sold the credits in the first place! Talk about racketeering!!!
SO ya see, its not really the devs borking the economy, its a combination of unrealistic player demands to have the best stuff, immediately, combined with shady 3rd parties that exploit players 'gotta get it now' mentality. Its why accout SOE vigorously tries to shut down ebay auctions and refuses to have anything to do with sites that offer in game items and money for sale. Its why they dont allow items & credits to go with you on a server transfer, and its why they monitor all large trades of credits.
You want to lay blame for messing up server ecomomies, blame they guys that tried to dupe credits and items and caused all this funny money to pour into the system. They tried to scam the system and we all got left with the after effects, and blame the mentality that says "I cant play unless I have only the best possible items, cheaply and easily obtained"