Business And Economy Archive
Thread: New vendor changes coming.
Mallize wrote:
Bhasayate wrote:For all those who say this is like the REAL world. Let me ask you a question. Say you want a carton of milk. So you goto the local store. Can you while IN THAT store. Use THAT store to check the price of EVERY store in EVERY city on the planet and see what they charge for that carton of milk. And THEN BUY the cheapest you find FROM THAT store. (I know they said they won't include instant delivery but they most likely will) and have it instanstaly appear in your hand even though the store was the other side of the planet. If SO where is this wonderfull shop.I have NOTHING against a global verdor SEARCH if thats ALL it is. A SEARCH not one that shows you the cheapst price and give you a possable instant delivery. I'm all for not wateing time going to empty vendors but if this goes though as is empty vendors will be the least of your problems.Message Edited by Ackew on 02-13-2005 09:34 PM
haha
yeah, i think i'll go to the store right now and check the price on milk all over the world and get the best deal handed to me right there in
in the store!
/slap SOEMessage Edited by Bhasayate on 02-13-2005 05:43 PM
We aren't taking about milk. If you want to be silly about it, then put a limited on perishable goods. I've said over and over and OVER that I don't agree w/ ALL of the changes. All I want is to be able to search vendors for items before I go there. That's it .. re-read my posts.
If you want to really talk about the real world... IF Kroger(or another grociery store) COULD deliver goods instantly, you don't think they would? The difference is IRL companies actually want to make it easier for customers to purchase their goods. This helps them make more money.
So.. how about this. It seems like everyone is worried about one lowballer... how about Sony implements a 'can't sell lower than X cpu'. Maybe it takes the average of all people selling that item and makes that the lowest price possible for next week or something.
You guys are all worried about yourselves and not what's best for everyone. Think about it from the non-crafter point of view... we are tired of running around looking at empty vendors. NO ONE has offered a constructive post on how to solve this. Everyone just bashes these changes. I agree they aren't perfect.... so offer some better ideas. The devs aren't going to look at this post and get ideas because you guys say things like, 'delete the damn vendors'. MMmmmm that's not easy to code. They aren't going to look through EVERY item on EVERY vendor to see if it needs to be delete. I can stick on piece of armor on my vendor... and keep it on the map forever. You guys think that is okay?
How would all of you help your customers consume your goods?
I totally expect another one star, but I have to say I've never seen a more closed minded-bash sony thread. Offer suggestions.
Message Edited by Mallize on 02-13-2005 08:29 PM
I made a joke just to mock them, yes. Their idea was retarted. I stand by the joke, and it's a good analogy to how stupid the changes would be.
Real life? This is a GAME. There are so many constraints on the economy that it's really, really silly to take comparisons between a REAL economy and what we got on SWG. So any analogies about what companies would do in RL or "what would you do if SOE fixed their prices?" or whatever is irrelevant.
Of course we're worried about what will happen to us? You're worried about what will happen to you.
YOu said "NO ONE has offered a constructive post on how to solve this" -- that's just not true. Go look at the thread in the merchant forum. We've been discussing this, and there are a lot of good ideas in there.
Anyway, those posts of mine, somewhat in jest, and posted in frustration.
But really, the vendors that have nothing in them are supposed to "poof." They're not supposed to be on the world map, either, if they've been unattened. These things are good, and help reduce running around all over. But I've got some bugged vendors in a PA hall of ours, and they won't go away. SOE should remove more vendors. It's irresponsible of the player to have vendors with nothing for sale in them. YEah, so delete the damn vendors if people don't tend them.
This whole thing has really irritated a lot of people, and now fighters and crafters are all fueding. No, I didn't one star you.
This has turned into a huge bash SONY because this is the absolute dumbest idea I've ever seen. They should get a big slap for this crappy idea.
And if you can't understand why we're mad, try to think of something they could do to absolutely destroy whatever profs you play, and then think about how upset you'd be.
Message Edited by Bhasayate on 02-13-2005 06:49 PM
Message Edited by Bhasayate on 02-13-2005 06:50 PM
Mallize wrote:
1) NO ONE has offered a constructive post on how to solve this.
2) MMmmmm that's not easy to code. They aren't going to look through EVERY item on EVERY vendor to see if it needs to be delete. I can stick on piece of armor on my vendor... and keep it on the map forever. You guys think that is okay?
2) Actually that's really easy to code. I don't think deleting vendors is at allnecessary, butit wouldn't be at all difficult to get a list of vendors on a galactic scale that are empty and delete them.And to solve the 1 piece of armor note, in addition it would be easy to apply only a list of vendors that are stocked to the galactic map instead of all vendors. Not only that, but it wouldn't be much more difficult to code the galactic map so that the vendors are listed as "(# in stock) <vendor name>". Again, it wouldn't be difficult to code the Instant FedEx either, it'dactually be farmore complex to code it so that you don't get the item, but it's reserved for you onthe vendor (I smell bugs in that by the way, if it's released too early. Like, I bought an item but it either wasn't there at allwhen I reached the vendor or someone else was able to buy it locally without the Galactic Bazaar).
It would be difficult to code in a rating system, a by-radius bazaar list, a new category system, or price caps.
I think something that's been lost in this thread is what it would take forthe devs to do the changes we're saying we want. While, yes, it is the devs job to write code, it's also their responsibility to make sure the game works. The more drastic the change from a coding point of view, the more potential for bugs that degrade the gaming experience.
Mallize wrote:ok.. just read some threads on other forums. there are some good ideas. i conceed that. all i know is that i'm getting one started for saying that SOMETHING should change.personally... all i want is to search. i don't even care if prices are listed. i just want to be able to get waypoints to vendors that actually have the item i'm looking for.does ANYONE disagree with that?
I think just adding the search is a GREAT IDEA
Mallize wrote:ok.. just read some threads on other forums. there are some good ideas. i conceed that. all i know is that i'm getting one started for saying that SOMETHING should change.personally... all i want is to search. i don't even care if prices are listed. i just want to be able to get waypoints to vendors that actually have the item i'm looking for.does ANYONE disagree with that?
I think that would be nice, if done from the global bazaar and only merchants have the ability to do this, or something like that.
When it comes down to it, you'll actually see that merchants LIKE the Galaxy wide search idea. We just do not like the thought of eliminating many of the original perks of Merchant - The ability to draw customers from factors like Location, originality in shop design, and above all, turning us into the next CH.
Mallize wrote:
So.. how about this. It seems like everyone is worried about one lowballer... how about Sony implements a 'can't sell lower than X cpu'. Maybe it takes the average of all people selling that item and makes that the lowest price possible for next week or something.
I keep seeing people referring to one lowballer. Pray tell, why are you assuming there will be only one? I envision people constantly coming into the game to try something, and selling for the lowest common denominator just to make sales. I see it as an ad infinitum process.
You guys are all worried about yourselves and not what's best for everyone. Think about it from the non-crafter point of view... we are tired of running around looking at empty vendors. NO ONE has offered a constructive post on how to solve this. Everyone just bashes these changes. I agree they aren't perfect.... so offer some better ideas. The devs aren't going to look at this post and get ideas because you guys say things like, 'delete the damn vendors'. MMmmmm that's not easy to code. They aren't going to look through EVERY item on EVERY vendor to see if it needs to be delete. I can stick on piece of armor on my vendor... and keep it on the map forever. You guys think that is okay?
Actualy, there have been MANY constructive idea offered that address the issue. I can sympathize that some (Or most) won't read every response - But I have. So, Constructive ideas I have seen that address the issue:
- Make the Vendor database searchable from bazaar only - Leaves the search process viable, but eliminates people coming into my shop and using my vendor as their sales interface.
- Leave Vendors searchable, but implement a fee if not purchasing from the "home" Vendor. In a risk vs reward system such as any MMORPG, this addresses the concept -We risk being on the system, and are rewarded for the use of our vendor to allow other people to make sales.
- Leave the Instant delivery system in, but at a set fee. No fee if consumer goes to retrieve from source, but an additional 5 to 10% if they desire instant gratification.
How would all of you help your customers consume your goods?
I totally expect another one star, but I have to say I've never seen a more closed minded-bash sony thread. Offer suggestions.
Message Edited by Mallize on 02-13-2005 08:29 PM
bluejanus wrote:
FishyDude wrote:
Phaelyn wrote:
FishyDude wrote:I thought that Tiggs confirmed that when you buy something you have to still travel to there vendor to pick it up. Well I have been a Merchant and a crafter in a couple of different professions for well over a year now and to me I think this will be a good thing. I have been reading the forums and it seems that the only people that are complaining the most about this is the crafters that are the ones who over charge there products. Dont get me wrong I am in the Merchant business to make money and as well for crafting too, however there is a limit to what is right and what is wrong for pricing. People say this will destroy the economy, I disagree. People complained that when solo-groups were nerfed that there was no way to make money. At least on Flurry there seems to be people making as much money as ever. This is just change and a lot of people have there ways about things and dont want change. I think this will be good because this will bring prices down a little bit, however I think this will give the new crafter and merchant a chance to break into the market and get there name out. So people might have to take a little less profit on some items but if you are a crafter and have built a business up and got a good clientell together then it wont matter. People will still buy from you and keep comming back. So all the crafters and merchants that are scared they might not make as much money with this needs t take a step back and see that this will be more of a good thing and not so much as a bad one.The higlighted area is incorrect. What does it matter if you have built up a customer base - Assuming all stats being the same, your clientele will now buy the same items you sell elsewhere, unless you are the absolute lowest price on the server. Since they can buy the item from your vendor, you've just given your competition a sale, and received no benefit. Since they can use the Bazaar to do the search - Why would they keep coming back?
Simple.. For people like me that have been around since launch I ahve certain people that I goto and I will keep going to due to the fact thats who I have done business for a long time now. It's all about reputation and about consistancy with what you have done in the past. Crafters that have built a name for themselves are put on a higher lever with consumers in this game. It is shear reputation alone that will keep you commingback.
Yeah but reputation would be a more older business technique. If you could remote buy everything, how does a seller garner reputation?
This is true however there are going to be pro's and cons to every aspect to this. The only thing I can see is this is going to keep prices in check. There are some people out there that way over price and there are some people that sell way to cheap. I think wiht this prices will stay balanced. But thats my oppion.
IntoTheGarbage wrote:
Wow, the fear of this change is truly palatable. I find it very interesting actually. It goes to show how the game can sometimes mirror real life, at least in the economy. Anytime there is a change that will increase the competition, established merchants and manufacturers recoil with fear and dire predictions.
First, I am going to at least TRY to dispel a few myths.
1. The under cutters will drive us all out of business.
No, they won’t. The new market is going to be very large. If someone drops a factory run of cheap goods they will be gobbled up by consumers (and other retailers who will then flip them for a profit). It would take a dedicated cadre of players, consistently dumping the same goods into the market, and consistently losing money, before they will have any impact on the market.
2. Prices are going to bottom out.
Some prices will go down. This is not the end of the world. It has been stated here many times. If prices go too low, crafters will quit. Therefore, prices WON’T go too low. If prices drop, they will only drop as low as the average crafter can tolerate. The game is NOT full of people mastering crafts just to start a price war and go broke. Sensible crafters like you and I dominate the market for finished goods, prices will go as low as we are willing to tolerate it and no further.
Believe it or not, in some cases, they may actually go up! No, don’t roll your eyes, it’s true. The new vendor system will instantly give us all 100% access to the SWG market. Items that were desirable, but not critical to game play may very well increase in price. This is because while players may have wanted these items, they could not find them. (and did not look very hard as they are not critical) Now we can sell everything to everyone.
3. The bad outweighs the good, if any!
The plus side here is huge! We are getting instant access to every player in our galaxy! The opportunities are endless! Whole new markets will open up. For example:
Components. It will now be totally viable for a crafter to simply sell crates of components on the global market. This will, of course, open up whole new crafting options to crafters.
Low level equipment. It will be viable to sell mid range equipment used by the various combat classes.
All that other stuff in our data pad that we never make cause we figure no one will ever buy it. Well somebody somewhere will buy it! Now we can sell it to everyone at once, so we can find that someone and sell it to them.
Also,all of these new markets will create a viable way for novice crafters to make money. Finally with all these new markets, crafters will be able to diversify and specialize in a way that was unimaginable until now. This will actually decrease competition (and the dreaded price wars). If the market is too competitive for you, switch toanother itemfrom your proffession.
We are also being given the means to monitor the global market to the finest detail; from raw resource, to sub-component, to finished product. Making money is really going to be a matter of looking at what things cost, what you have, and what you can make, then deciding where you think your best profit lies.
Remember this isn’t real money, this is a game. We are being given this fabulous tool which will let us buy and sell whatever we want! Ok, so it will be more competitive. So what? Think back to when you first decided to go into crafting. Didn’t you expect part of the game to be watching the market, and carefully setting your prices to ensure you made a profit, yet stayed competitive? Now it will, and I look forward too it.
Worried, no! Excited, yes!!!!
/agree
This is a good change. I don't like the instant fed-ex deal, but I love the idea of not spending 3 hours to find one item. Empty vendors (or vendors w/ one item on them) caused this change. If everyone stocked their vendors I wouldn't mind going to their shop. But the MAJORITY of vendors listed on Ahazi are near empty.
Mallize wrote:
IntoTheGarbage wrote:Wow, the fear of this change is truly palatable. I find it very interesting actually. It goes to show how the game can sometimes mirror real life, at least in the economy. Anytime there is a change that will increase the competition, established merchants and manufacturers recoil with fear and dire predictions.
First, I am going to at least TRY to dispel a few myths.
1. The under cutters will drive us all out of business.
No, they won’t. The new market is going to be very large. If someone drops a factory run of cheap goods they will be gobbled up by consumers (and other retailers who will then flip them for a profit). It would take a dedicated cadre of players, consistently dumping the same goods into the market, and consistently losing money, before they will have any impact on the market.
2. Prices are going to bottom out.
Some prices will go down. This is not the end of the world. It has been stated here many times. If prices go too low, crafters will quit. Therefore, prices WON’T go too low. If prices drop, they will only drop as low as the average crafter can tolerate. The game is NOT full of people mastering crafts just to start a price war and go broke. Sensible crafters like you and I dominate the market for finished goods, prices will go as low as we are willing to tolerate it and no further.
Believe it or not, in some cases, they may actually go up! No, don’t roll your eyes, it’s true. The new vendor system will instantly give us all 100% access to the SWG market. Items that were desirable, but not critical to game play may very well increase in price. This is because while players may have wanted these items, they could not find them. (and did not look very hard as they are not critical) Now we can sell everything to everyone.
3. The bad outweighs the good, if any!
The plus side here is huge! We are getting instant access to every player in our galaxy! The opportunities are endless! Whole new markets will open up. For example:
Components. It will now be totally viable for a crafter to simply sell crates of components on the global market. This will, of course, open up whole new crafting options to crafters.
Low level equipment. It will be viable to sell mid range equipment used by the various combat classes.
All that other stuff in our data pad that we never make cause we figure no one will ever buy it. Well somebody somewhere will buy it! Now we can sell it to everyone at once, so we can find that someone and sell it to them.
Also, all of these new markets will create a viable way for novice crafters to make money. Finally with all these new markets, crafters will be able to diversify and specialize in a way that was unimaginable until now. This will actually decrease competition (and the dreaded price wars). If the market is too competitive for you, switch to another item from your proffession.
We are also being given the means to monitor the global market to the finest detail; from raw resource, to sub-component, to finished product. Making money is really going to be a matter of looking at what things cost, what you have, and what you can make, then deciding where you think your best profit lies.
Remember this isn’t real money, this is a game. We are being given this fabulous tool which will let us buy and sell whatever we want! Ok, so it will be more competitive. So what? Think back to when you first decided to go into crafting. Didn’t you expect part of the game to be watching the market, and carefully setting your prices to ensure you made a profit, yet stayed competitive? Now it will, and I look forward too it.
Worried, no! Excited, yes!!!!
/agree
This is a good change. I don't like the instant fed-ex deal, but I love the idea of not spending 3 hours to find one item. Empty vendors (or vendors w/ one item on them) caused this change. If everyone stocked their vendors I wouldn't mind going to their shop. But the MAJORITY of vendors listed on Ahazi are near empty.
Then delete the damn vendors, don't FUBAR the prof.
Secondly, at the moment when a customer visits my shop, he might look around and see something else he could need.
GraySeven wrote:
Via the Internet, I can check prices for almost anything. I can buy it that way too. I can also have it delivered to me. In the interest of balance, there does need to be in-game limits. Making people have to pick up the item from its locale is one way to do it, making the "galactic listing" a high level Merchant skill is another.
But no one has, as of yet, shown me any reason for all the "sky-is-falling" comments. What I see is basically people who seem to think location has a lot to do with how much they sell, or that the decor of their shop has something to do with the amount they sell.
Check prices for an item on Corellia. Then go to Dantooine and look at the same item. Odds are the price on Dant will be higher. It doesn't cost any more to sell on Dant. Getting to Dant isn't that hard. For some reason people seem to think that goods on Dant are worth more.
What I see are people complaining because people who sell for less than they do will "steal" their sales. If this is true you have options. Stop selling, buy and resell, or bring your prices in line with others. Adapt to survive.
I'm a Merchant. It was my first advanced Mastery. I see nothing wrong with this Galactic listing. Why can't consumers have an easier way to comparison shop? I relish the chance to get my crates of BH droids and MSE bomb-droids to a broader market as well as being able to see how my prices compare to others.
Remember, prices are pretty much set by the seller based on how they percieve the worth of the sold item. Some people percievegoods to be worth more than others, some less. Those who sell low will raise prices, high will come down, and quality is really going to make a difference. If you have a strong customer base, and sell fairly, you have nothing to worry about.
Kryonastus wrote:
Anyone else notice...SWG is under the thumb of an oppressive empire. You think they would allow a free market, and capitalism? If you want to have them go balls out and start making it realistic, you would have to pay galactic tax, you wouldnt be able to own a weapon or craft them, and if you crafted something it would have to meet imperial standards, or be illegal. Also, your profits would be slashed by about 75% through imperial taxation.
Boo.
Hahaha! Cheers mate, that's a good one!
-----
And GraySeven, there's something I'd like to add to your post. You said "Quality is really going to make a difference", and with a galactic bazaar I couldn't agree more. But there-in lies the problem for small Artisans, the people who aren't 12-point Weaponsmiths, DE's, Architects, etc, because they don't move enough product to make enough profit to afford the experimentation tapes. They will never be able to reach the quality of the big Artisans who are 12 point, and almost by default thanks to their being established enough in their trade to be 12-point crafters, they also have a better reign on resources. Also, the 12-point crafting system is such that once you get those 20 extra experimentation points, it doesn't cost you anything anymore to produce a higher quality product, and I say that because using the exact same resources, it costs a 12 point Weaponsmith the same it costs a 10 point Weaponsmith to make a T21 Rifle, but the 12-point guycan reliably make one that's better. So, there's nothing to stop the 12-point WS from dropping his price to whatever the 10point WS is trying to sell his lower quality product for, because it doesn't cost the 12point any. Thus, the 10point guy has a harder time selling product because his quality is less then a more established Artisan who is selling at the same price.
That problem still applies now, obviously, but the difference is that only someone with an unbelievable amount of time goes to all the Weaponsmiths on say, Corellia, and then on Dantooine, for a price comparison. So if our 12pointer is on Corellia, and the 10pointer is on Dantooine, and Joe Rifleman's T21 breaks while he's on Dant, he's going to go to the nearest seller; the 10pointer. And yeah, the T21 might not be as great as he's used to, but he just wants to get on with his night of hunting and the rifle's not that expensive for him to buy, and it is at least'good quality' if not exceptional,so he goes ahead and the 10pointer makes some money. The 12pointer meanwhile is still making his normal trade of cash, because players know about his shop because it's a big one and always has tons in stock, and they'll go by his shop when they're on the same planet and running errands maybe before going hunting.
If there was a Galactic Bazaar, Joe Rifleman would hike his way to the nearest Bazaar terminal, find that there's a nice T21 for sale on Corellia, and he'd buy it and then fly to Corellia because he knows that he doesn'thave to search through the nearby Weaponsmiths on Dantooine; he's guarenteed a nice T21 at a low price on Corellia.
Now, WHY IS THAT A BAD THING? Read the following:
The 10point Weaponsmith's sales will go down. He simply won't be able to compete with the 12point Weaponsmith who can offer a better product at even just the same price as the 10point'ers product. So, the 10point Weaponsmith will have no choice but to find another line of work.
WHY IS THAT A BAD THING? Read on...
The 10point Weaponsmith in our little story, Mastered WS about 2 months ago. Fresh with the newbie's dream of becoming the most prominent Weaponsmith on the server, he throws everything he can find into making the best weapons he can make. He knows the weapons aren't super-duper, but his PA has pitched in with some looted components and so he's able to make some 'special' weapons, and the PA gave him a nice location to put up a shopnear the Mining Outpost on Dant. So he's got a shop, it's frequented a couple times a day, and while he's not pulling in a lot of credits because his product isn't super and he can't sell at high prices, he is still making a steady amount of cash. Yes, players may not be getting the best product from him, yes, they might be paying a little more then they should if the prices were set against a Galacitc quality-to-price ratio, but players don't care because the shop is there, and they can buy from it right then and there. Maybe the shop even gets a waypoint on their datapads, and when someone in Joe Rifleman's PA is on Dant and says "Where can I get a basic stun baton, my UberAcklay is getting low on condition and I don't want to bother searching for an UberAcklay replacement?", Joe can say "Go to this guy's shop, he's usually stocked and the weapons are average but solid." Thus, the 10point Weaponsmith slowly grows a larger customer base.
THAT IS NOT A BAD THING!
I am against a Galactic Bazaar because I simply cannot accept that "players will be loyal to the merchants they go to normally because they've always gone to them, even if there's a Galactic Bazaar". The truth of the matter is, if said players are in a hurry, they're 2 planets away from the normal merchant they go to, they'll pop over to the Galactic Bazaar to look for a good deal. They'll find one, and then after a couple more times of that they'll decide that there's really no point in being loyal because the merchant they used to go to doesn't sell as good of a product, or sells too high.
A Galactic Bazaar is simplyNOT NECESSARY. The Galactic Map merely needs to be enhanced to show item counts, and not show empty vendors. That alone would entirely solve the problem of Joe Rifleman having to go to 30 shops to find 29 that don't have any stock (and naturally, shop #30 on his search would be that one that has stock). It also would save small vendors, who merely have to make sure their vendors have an attractive name and have about a half dozen of each variety of item they craft in stock. Then Joe Rifleman pops up his Galactic Map,scrolls down to Weapons, and half-way down the list sees"(17) Get-The-Job-Done Rifles". Joe then thinks, "Ahh, he's got17 items in stock, there's a good chance that a basic T21 will be there since it's the most popular rifle, I'll go check him out."
What is wrong with that?