Business And Economy Archive
Thread: Cross Server lot trading
Pawlin
Wed Jan 19, 2005 11:47 am
#40
Cafa wrote:
Khristen wrote:
The game would not come to a screeching halt if cross-server lot trades were ended somehow. All it would do is change the way some people play the game.
It is not impossible to run a large scale business with only 10 lots per character. It requires cooperation with others, but it is not impossible. No one *needs* 20 factories and another 20 lots for storage. If you didn't have 20 factories churning out so much stuff, you wouldn't need another 20 lots to store the excess. You'd have to sell it as you make it instead of stockpiling. One player shouldn't try--nor should they be able to--meet the demands of the majority of the server.
Because why? You've provided nothing to support your supposition, just conjecture and your personal opinion. You seem to want to dictate, 1) players' goals, 2) players' limitations, 3) crafting limitations, and 4) players' accomplishments for no other reason than some personal vendetta. You have not supplied a single fact-base piece of logic for any of these stances.
...
Ok, I'm going to half agree and half disagree with each of you.
*It is normal and ok for players to try to build a very big business.
Players should try to build the biggest and best business they can. That is going to be an obvious goal of the business minded. The logical conclusion is crushing all your competition and sitting on a THRONE MADE OF THEIR SKULLS!!! ... oh... um, sorry, lost my train of thought there for a second. Anyway my point is that its pretty natural for crafters to want to build a big business. The ultimate accomplishment is a monopoly and a bank acount with 9 digits. And of course there are also crafters who are more in it for the love of making things, providing service, meeting peoples needs, etc. Some players run a virtual non-profit organization and craft things for zero profit just to be nice and help others. Plus many people who are in between and like makin the money but also like serving the public. So there are many ways of playing a crafter or businessman and all of them are legitimate.
* SOE won't want individuals monopolizing the economy. It is quite likely SOE will nerf cross server lot trades.
What happens to the game if one player does form a real monopoly? An extreme example to illustrate the point: Say there were 50 miners on a server and one miner had 1000 lot trades and nobody else did lot trades. That uber miner would end up running such a big business that nobody could even try to compete. That would make playing a miner kind of lame for everyone else. It would make the game no fun for those other 49 players. SOE would loose some subscriptions... ya see where I'm going? SOE has to react when things are unbalanced to the point that some players just can't compete and it gets to be no fun. Particuarly if things are to unbalanced or 'unfair' (subjectivley). If a combat profession is too powerful then it can be nerfed for the same reason: to balance the game. Now, happily they don't nerf individuals just because they are good at what they do. They shouldnt' and SOE knows that. But if some people utilize systems that really weren't meant to work that way then those systems may get nerfed or fixed. This is what they did with solo groups. They 'fixed' them. We weren't supposed to be able to do that. Some people who did it made so much money and it unbalanced things. We're also not supposed to be able to get a bunch of lots virtually for free. Now someone might argue about that, cause SOE hasn't commented really as far as I know. But IMHO, cross server lot trades are not intendedd and I bet SOE is considering how best to nerf them.
Its really hard to say how much impact lot trades have and what nerfing them would do. I bet that is something SOE is scared of cause if they nerf it then there is no telling what might happen. They might not have good data on just how much people do cross server lot trades. Is it very wide spread or just something a few miners and crafters do? We don't know really. WE can all assume, but we don't know.
If/when they do nerf cross server lot trades, we'll adapt to it. It won't end the world but it won't 'fix' much of anything either. The power gamers will still have an edge that nobody can take away and the rich and powerful will still be rich and powerful.
Tinkergirl
Wed Jan 19, 2005 12:08 pm
#41
Once again - personal opinion follows.
I don't believe that cross server lot trading was intended. Lots, storage, skillpoints etc are all limits put into the game so that...
1) Database storage would be limited,
2) Characters would have needs and not be perfectly self sufficient.
Imagine for a moment that characters only had 5 lots per character instead of 10 and there was no lot trading. They'd cry out for more lots, but the economy would be stable. It's all anyone would have ever known. How would people cope? Well, they'd use less. They wouldn't have 10 factories (and no - you don't need 10), they wouldn't have 30 harvestors (and no - you don't need 30 harvestors either) and they wouldn't have storage houses 1 to 20 lining the streets of their local city.
People would make do - they'd have smaller runs of items. There would be fewer 'big' names in any crafting business and many more 'small' traders. Maybe there would even be collaborations between crafters to harvest lots of one resourse, or to collaborate on the subcomponents of a larger item. How terrible that would be.
Now imagine for a moment that characters had 40 lots (still no lot trading). They'd cry out for more lots!
"We can't store all our resourses to maintain a completely full inventory!" What a shame.
"We can't haul up enough resourses to flood the market with 1000 quality resourses for years to come!" You mean the new player will actually have a chance, after entering the game after you? Aw. Shame.
Give the players 100 lots and they'll still cry out for more. It's simple - people always want more.
Add into this, the server lot trading workaround/exploit, and you have an unbalancing effect on the crafting system. Where some crafters have more lots than others, through no fault of the 'lesser' crafter. Some things in the game were supposed to be 'equalisers' - skill points, storage, lots.
Don't tell me that you don't have enough storage to keep all your resourses - you don't need to maintain a full stock inventory - specialise!
Don't tell me you don't have enough lots to haul up enough resourses - craft less!
Don't tell me that prices would spiral out of control if there were less items being made - if there's a gap in the market, players will fill it.
I don't believe that the current lack of interdependancy was intended by the Devs. Whether or not they're going to be able to do anything about it, is another matter.
/endofopinion
I don't believe that cross server lot trading was intended. Lots, storage, skillpoints etc are all limits put into the game so that...
1) Database storage would be limited,
2) Characters would have needs and not be perfectly self sufficient.
Imagine for a moment that characters only had 5 lots per character instead of 10 and there was no lot trading. They'd cry out for more lots, but the economy would be stable. It's all anyone would have ever known. How would people cope? Well, they'd use less. They wouldn't have 10 factories (and no - you don't need 10), they wouldn't have 30 harvestors (and no - you don't need 30 harvestors either) and they wouldn't have storage houses 1 to 20 lining the streets of their local city.
People would make do - they'd have smaller runs of items. There would be fewer 'big' names in any crafting business and many more 'small' traders. Maybe there would even be collaborations between crafters to harvest lots of one resourse, or to collaborate on the subcomponents of a larger item. How terrible that would be.
Now imagine for a moment that characters had 40 lots (still no lot trading). They'd cry out for more lots!
"We can't store all our resourses to maintain a completely full inventory!" What a shame.
"We can't haul up enough resourses to flood the market with 1000 quality resourses for years to come!" You mean the new player will actually have a chance, after entering the game after you? Aw. Shame.
Give the players 100 lots and they'll still cry out for more. It's simple - people always want more.
Add into this, the server lot trading workaround/exploit, and you have an unbalancing effect on the crafting system. Where some crafters have more lots than others, through no fault of the 'lesser' crafter. Some things in the game were supposed to be 'equalisers' - skill points, storage, lots.
Don't tell me that you don't have enough storage to keep all your resourses - you don't need to maintain a full stock inventory - specialise!
Don't tell me you don't have enough lots to haul up enough resourses - craft less!
Don't tell me that prices would spiral out of control if there were less items being made - if there's a gap in the market, players will fill it.
I don't believe that the current lack of interdependancy was intended by the Devs. Whether or not they're going to be able to do anything about it, is another matter.
/endofopinion
Khristen
Wed Jan 19, 2005 12:42 pm
#42
Just a few clarification points on my earlier statements. I refuse to pick people apart phrase by phrase. 
As far as my statement that "one player shouldn't try--nor should they be able to--meet the demands of the majority of the server", I'm simply going on the idea that this is a multi-player game and everyone should be able to contribute in their way. And I'm not saying that someone shouldn't be able to try and do that (my wording may have been a bit unclear now that I'm looking hard at it), just that the game shouldn't be set up game-mechanics-wise for one person to completely dominate and monopolize the server. Maybe I'm just idealistic, but it doesn't make a lot of sense for one player to try to be the end all be all in every profession for the entire server. It can't be done. I don't care how many lots you have at your disposal, you cannot create an exlusive monopoly in SWG. You can be a primary part of it, certainly, but it is not possible to completely prevent other players from getting a piece--however small--of the same resource, crafted goods, or service of that "primary player." Whether or not someone wants to try and do it anyway is their business....
The statements I made of "the old days" are based completely on my experience on my server in the game at that time. I'm talking way back, before the holo-grind mess that threw everything out of whack. Maybe I wasn't exactly clear on that time frame. Did it go down that way on every server in the exact same way? Absolutely not. Nor did I ever imply that it did. I'm talking in generalities and not specific instances. Sure, there were people who did cross-server trading. And they could afford it. People bought and soldcredits on eBay all the time (and still do to some degree) which made it possible for many. There probably were people who found a way to grind through a crafting profession just as quickly as you can now. They were just the exception rather than the norm.
The devs made a terrible mistake with the holo-grind. It did absolutely horrendous things to the economy. That was when cross-server trading hit it's stride, at least in my experience. Add the credit duping fiasco on top of it and the mess became even bigger. The devs did not expect hologrinding to happen the way it did. And they're still trying to clean up that mess. Prices on finished product *did* go down (at least on Naritus) for many professions as hologrinders tried to get back some money on all the resources they grinded through. Pre-hologrind small houses ran for about 15k on my server; after the hologrind they could be found on the bazaar for 3k--which is barely enough to break even if you had mined all the resources yourself. SoNaritus went from a period of time where things were not regularly mass-produced to a time where there was too much of everything floating around.
Getting rid of cross-server lot trading (which, as I've stated many times already, I don't think is going to happen anytime soon if ever) would not destroy or ignore the community and coordination of player associations be it guilds or cities. If anything, it encourages it.
Since Ihave been accused of having nofacts to support my statements, I'll use an example from my own guild and my own very successful business. Our guild hall is held by a player that is pure crafter--zero combat experience. His other three lots go to holding a structure factory, and two equipment factories. My character runs a very large shop in our player city providing furniture and house deeds, droids, clothing, components, smuggler supplies and spices, ships, and a few odds and ends. I'm the tailor and smuggler, and work with a close-friend (the guild hall owner) to stock my shop. My friend has two accounts, so one is a Master Merchant who handles all the vendors which my account and his other one stock. My company operates pretty much independently at this point from the guild because I work with several people on a regular basis. Some hold my factories (which comprises 2 wearables, 2 equipment, 1 food, and 1 structure factory), the guild hall for the guild (which houses my shop),one crafting house, and two storage houses. All in all, we have about 28 lots between us to use on harvesters although I usually keep 6 of those free (except in the case of a really good resource spawn) to place houses in the city for people since I'm the city planner. One character is in charge of doing the surveying, one character is in charge of checking maintenance fees on the houses, one character is in charge of harvester runs. I'm now a double diget millionaire with plenty to cover my costs and help out other guildies who might need it. I've been playing since just after launch and have had time to build up to this point. I didn't jump on the bandwagon of hologrinding. And I've never, ever, ever had to resort to cross-server lot trades to support myself. When I've needed lots, I've gone to my guild and found those with unused lots that I could "borrow". I've never been "hurt" by someone using cross-server lot trades because I do just fine doing it the right way and building my business with what I have available to me whileproviding stocked vendors and good customer service. I don't dominate the entire server, no, but I'm fairly well-known and successful. I don't have to undercut, and many times charge more than others; people come to me, though, because they know I'll have it in stock or I'll make it faster than they can find it elsewhere.
This thread isn't about how I'vesucceeded without using cross-server lot trades(and I never would have used myself as an example if I hadn't been accused ofmaking statements on nothing but thin air and personal issues) and it isn't about those who have succeeded because of cross-server lot trades. The question made at the beginning was whether this was a legitimate function of the game or a loop hole that hasn't gotten squashed yet; and what the potential effects would be one way or the other. I think that's a much better topic than personal attacks.
Message Edited by Khristen on 01-19-2005 03:26 PM
Phaelyn
Wed Jan 19, 2005 5:38 pm
#43
Khristen wrote:
The game would not come to a screeching halt if cross-server lot trades were ended somehow. All it would do is change the way some people play the game.
It is not impossible to run a large scale business with only 10 lots per character. It requires cooperation with others, but it is not impossible. No one *needs* 20 factories and another 20 lots for storage. If you didn't have 20 factories churning out so much stuff, you wouldn't need another 20 lots to store the excess. You'd have to sell it as you make it instead of stockpiling. One player shouldn't try--nor should they be able to--meet the demands of the majority of the server.
Ok - But let me add, that in this theory of gameplay (And believe me, I agree about the majority of your sentiment here). Crafters don't NEED Factories at all. The Devs added them in so that players COULD mass produce items - So in essence, don't blame players who wish to stockpile - Blame the Devs that added the ability in the first place. In fact, if factories never existed, players wouldn't need more lots at all. People would buy resources as they needed, instead of having to fill up the factory. Items would take longer to craft, and possibly since each item would be unique, there would be a more viable fluctuation in pricing - Better items cost a tad more, but most items at a base price. Everything would fall in line at that point - No factores = less resource use(and with less use = less demand = less need for lot trades)= more personal service. However, the outcry was for a way for Crafters to be able to go out and enjoy the PvP/PvE aspect of the game - And factories were the answer. Lot trades of course were a logical extension of this. My view - Eliminate Factory support totally. Make crafting an ART again, and a true profession, not a way to make money from both sides (Crafting & fighting)
While I would love to see an official dev comment on the validity of the cross-server lot trade practice, I don't think it'll happen anytime soon. That doesn't mean they think it's right, not an abuse of the system, or an ok thing to do. It just means that they've got more important things on their plate to deal with right now. There are many things that they need to/want to change about SWG, and those of highest priority to the well-being of the game come first. Cross-server trading isn't an easy fix; solo grouping was. It's a matter of choosing battles, and worrying about cleaning up things when there's time to do it.
On the flip side, it doesn't mean they think it's wrong, a part of the system, or a bad thing to do. And although I agree there's a LOT of work to be done - Isn't it funny that in School to learn their craft, these people were given deadlines in times they MUST turn in their work - Yet now that they are getting paid (by us, the players), they can take their sweet time - And we don't give them the ULTIMATE failing grade? (us leaving the game) Time as an excuse for their "choosing batles" doesn't wash. If they could get through school and meet deadlines - Maybe we should give them some deadlines as well.
Khristen
Wed Jan 19, 2005 6:37 pm
#44
Crafters do need factories for certain schematics because there are sub-components that require identical pieces. I've always looked at factories as sub-component support (which I realize may just be me) and not as a mass-producer of finished product. My guess is that's why the devs have been pretty adamant about not allowing shipwright factories to mass produce ship components. They allowed equipment factories to make the mundane things that people need lots of (like the paint kits as well as analizers for the shipwright), but have outright prevented the ability for shipwrights to make finished product components in a factory. As it stands now, a shipwright can't buy out all of the really good resources and make a factory run of "uber" reactors for example and not run out of stock.
It was my impression that the Shipwright profession was a test of sorts in regards to the crafting professions. I think they wanted to see if it could work without factory support for the finished product. Making it so sub-components were the only thing that could havea schematic made would be a major change to the current crafting world. People are slowly starting to understand the way shipwright works in this regard, and, while the debate still goes on over in the Shipwright forums, I think people are also starting to adjust to it.
You are very right, Phaelyn, about the lack of comment from the devs not necessarily meaning that they think it's right or wrong. It may very well be that they don't really havea problem with it. It's always been my impression that they're not thrilled with it--mostly from what was said at Fan Fest, but that's all personal opinion on my part.
It'd be nice to know for certain, though.....
Phaelyn
Wed Jan 19, 2005 7:07 pm
#45
--- Crafters do need factories for certain schematics because there are sub-components that require identical pieces.--
Perhaps a subtle change to the way things work - IE, the ability to still make something akin to a schematic, but useful only with a personal station. Instead of an experimentation phase with the template, you add the option of using the "saved" setting. Make this saved setting much lower than with Factories - Arbitrary number.. 100. I believe this way, you still get Schematic benefits (same ID numbers), but keep the amount of "uber" parts to a set amount. "Uber" items should be a bit more rare than they are, but factories add an element of extending the amount, and actually lowering the usefulness of the Profession itself. After all, if you can rattle out 1000 parts with no "personal" input - Why aren't more of the Crafting professions making and selling Schematics, so people can make their own goods? Only good answer - Because it keeps THEM with the ability to make and sell the product.
-- It was my impression that the Shipwright profession was a test of sorts in regards to the crafting professions. I think they wanted to see if it could work without factory support for the finished product. --
I sure hope so. As a Shipwright, I find it to be a much more enjoyable Crafting profession than Weaponsmith EVER was. I delight in making each piece by hand, and combining them into a good finished product. ALL crafting professions can be like this - It's just those who want to make a Bazillion identical items that have the desire for factories. Crafting shouldn't be a side venture to their Combat stats - it should be a profession you choose because you WANT to do it.
-- It'd be nice to know for certain, though..... --
For you and me both. I don't really care to the aspect of having 10000 lots, as that's too many for me. But, I *do* enjoy having a few extra lots to use for a variety of purposes - Housing (Like to keep a nice looking dwelling), Sales space (I personally dislike living in where I have to have 100s of people a day running through), Harvesters (Again, I am speaking of personal use mostly,with excess being sold *in my case* at base rates)and Guild use (A Mayor and Guild leaders always can use a hand when placing houses for new people).
Alukolli
Thu Jan 20, 2005 6:24 am
#46
i uses lot swap alot.. it are okay.. but need alot of work..
i disagree and agree with most of the things stated in here..
but if the dev think cross server lot trade are wrong. ill bet they will fix it somehow.
There are many way to "fix" it. but peeps will always find more lots within their own server.
You wont get rid of all the harvys field out there. some yes but not all.
i am wondering what are the difference if some one do an cross server lot swap then rent same amount of lots on the same server?
I am an crafter and got more then 1 account.. if i only used my lot and dodnt rent or lot swaped.
and another crafter had 50 friends here, and he borrowed 5lot from each?
How could i compete with that? i would say i can compete with that in the same way i do now.
i have seen on my server an several 100+ static fields out there. But it seems to be an demand for alot of res also. If that person dont sell to much he wont be abel to afford to money to run the harvy field (unless he buy credits from ebay.. lol). So then the harvys field would proberly get taken down.. near my home on tat. there was around 50-60 harvys burned up in last 2weeks.. maybe that what happend or the owner left game.
My suggestion to stop Cross server lot swap are.
Give 1account 30lots.
give each master crafter proffession +10 lots(on each server)
then he can divide them on whatever server he likes.. some might not want that and some do. I my self would be happy with that, due to the fact i only play on 1 server.
But if someone are playing on 3 servers or more atm and uses lots he would have an difficulty on that.
any other suggestion or any reply?
Message Edited by Alukolli on 01-20-2005 02:25 PM
Almightyrastus
Thu Jan 20, 2005 6:37 am
#47
I am not a fan of lot swappers at all, sure it makes for cheap(ish) and plentiful materials for crafting but again it is something that puts the casual gamer at another disadvantage due to a few people making loads of credits and hence allowing people to charge more for items.
just my 2p anyway.
I think a good solution, if highly unpopular, would to be only allowing admin on harvestor structures for the owner, leave the hopper listings as it is, it is useful to be able to let a friend go and pick some stuff up for you, but all other functions such as resource changing and power / maintanance payments should be an owner only thing.
Alukolli
Thu Jan 20, 2005 7:41 am
#50
i do not agree on the admin right only to owner. since i have more then 1 account.
Master_Mavric
Thu Jan 20, 2005 10:09 am
#51
A few things....
You people make alot of good point so I will try to remember everything I want to say.
First I have been accused of not reading before I post. Let it be known I read every post beforeI posted the first time on this thread and I have now read every post from then to this point.
Secondly and more importianly, I can easly be swayed either way on this issue as a whole. Im not a lot swaper and im not big on massive static fields. Specialy when the highest concintration of somethingI want to mine (polymer spicificly this happened last night) Spawns under the middle of whatI know to be a static field of mineral miners. However, I do enjoy being able to go to the local mall and by a stack of 100k unit of what I need without having to scrounge thru 30 vendors to do it. Could I be successful without mega-minners? Ya probably more then I am today. Are they convienient? Yes to that too.
I would not be apposed to makeing it so factories can not make runs of finished products. Even when I was a arch, I did all my final assemblies by hand. I can not however amagin crafting each and ever fiberplast pannel, or synthetic cloth by hand so that I could stock my vendors. I can burn thru a couple hundred without blinking. And so you dont accuse me of being a big guy... I stock 2 vendors, one on naboo is a small PC with no shuttleport and one on dantooine also in a player city with no shuttle. People come to me because I do it right and I do it right now. Not because I have a 3000 intem vendor in the coronet mall.
Takeing admin rights off harvesters would be a inconvience but not a show stoper. I run 3 accounts, A PA leader, a Cantina owner, and my Tailor. I have a
PA Hall - 7 lots
Cantina - 5 lots
Small House - 2 lots
1 MP Ship I use as a non-profit shuttle for my PA/City- 1 lot
Militia Toon with 5 lots dedicated for house placements
Leaveing me with about10 lots for factories and harvesters
7 are on my tailor toon and 3 are on my PALeader
So you can see my lots are mainly used for comunity service. I manage them all from one account(my tailor). Takeing the admin off the harvesters and factories wouldcause me to have to log myPA Leader toon more offten yes. I can livewith that.However will all these building and haveing stuffI use on a semi-regular basis I would not want to see Admin Rightstaken off house type structures. I think alot of people would be very anoyed by this not just crafters. I knowquite a few people who share a house or have a shared storage barn ect. Wouldnt it be nice to get on after apublish and not be able to put on your armor cause you stored it in your friends house and hes not on to pick it up and trade it to you? I know this hasnt been brought up you but Im just saying think about how far you would want it to go.
I realy see little issue with lot swap houses lol. Who in there right mind would want a field of 100 houses out there? Is there anyone who might collect that much stuff? Factories I almost feel the same way about. However as I said above Im all for limiting factories to just sub-components and not allowing them to make finished products. If you did that there is no reason to have more then maybe 2 at the most anyway right? Harvester however are another matter all togeather. I do have to say though that it wouldnt aliminate the problem all togeather. People would just do small harvester runs on multiple servers instead of one big one on there own. It wouldnt stop the ebay issue and it wouldnt stop the mega-minners. It just might slow them down a bit.
Ok I think im done. Feel free to pick me apart..... Again. Just no more sayingI dont read beforeI post.
Almightyrastus
Thu Jan 20, 2005 2:31 pm
#52
I am a master Architect so I know only too well what it is to need loads of resources and lots for factories and whatever else, I just don't agree with the principles of lot swapping.
A way I have been thinking of improving the situation a little would to maybe allow crafting professions to gain extra lots for each branc of the tree they complete, say +2 at each tier 4 box and a further +2 at the master box, this would enable the crafter to double thier initial lot count for each crafting profession they mastered without opening up the game to people exploiting the system by taking novice crafting boxes to gain extra lots. This has been discussed many times in the past and I believe it would be a great bonus to everyone involved.
I would also really like something along the lines of a mining profession to be included at sometime, something which has also been discussed many many times on these forums. Something that would gain extra lots as well as the ability to use them more efficiently.
I have been asked a couple of times to participate in a lot swapping scheme bycrafters from other servers but they have always been turned away, partially due to the amount of time I spend playing, it would not be worth me starting up a field of harvestors and also due to the reasoning I gave in my last post.