Business And Economy Archive
Thread: The Unfortunate truth about Credits.*UPDATED*
falllacy wrote:
Try starting out as a new character today. and see how long it takes you to develop a presence.
I started a new character on Starsider 4 days ago, with no outside help, no contacts on the server, and no clue where anything was other than the knowledge I took from playing on Naritus. I refused to guild or get help from any other character other than legitimate business deals.
A nice new set of Composite armor may be well out of my reach at 340-385k a suit (ouch this server is expensive!), but the beat up set of piecemeal Ubese/Chiten/Marabi Iput together from thebazzardoes the job just fine. I found some basic, unsliced, no-krayt having guns to carry around and tossed some cheap power-ups on them. They're not the best, but they work and didn't break the bank buying them. I don't need a swoop, I have a free X-31 thatgets me from a to b,and shuttles to almost every point on the civilized planets. At 10-15k a shot, buffs are paid for from 2-3 quenker missions (no solo group required). The rest of the buff set is spent hunting the Ranger's animal of the day. When I couldn't aford Brandy to push through the rifles grind, I used Muon & Thruster. Stim-Bs cost too much to keep using for a while there, so I made my own Stim-As for most uses, and kept the Bs for panic mode. Up until I was ready for quenkers, I didn't even buff. I ground Master Mark onnightspiders & kadu. With that mastery under my belt, I was ready for Dant.
After 4 days, I'm Master Marksman,1001 Carbineer, 4343 Scout, and have several contacts for scout sales. I may or may not keep the scouting, I haven't decided, but it was a good tool when I needed cash.
Starting over isn't hard, in fact I think it's easier than ever. Being No. 1 overnight is what's hard, and that shouldn't change.
RelicOMO wrote:
falllacy wrote:
ok, I give up.
It's obvious we are playing two different games.
Perhaps it's just my mentality...I can't imagine being happy with mediocrity.
and sharnaffs...wow.
Unfortunately, this exact position and belief counters the principle of trying to reduce prices that you want the game to take on.
It's something that the other posters in this thread have not fully explained. They are saying that players confuse wants with needs - that they look at the high-end things they want, and believe that they need that. It's precisely the principle that modern, media-based economies rely on - people see something they don't really need, but they want it, and ergo they believe they need it.
From what I see, most players in this thread commend the poster for realising that you don't need these things to play the game. This is correct - you don't, and it's commendable that people can rise above the obsessive keeping up with the joneses that this attitude creates. But, to counter, I would say that for many players, they DO need these things to play the game. Before you start whipping out the flamethrowers, hear me out. I've made many posts in support of higher prices, rarer loot, and the SWG economy before, so give me the benefit of the doubt. Such things as high end weapons, armour, buffs, and so on are needed by most players, because for them, the game is about striving to be the best. And there's nothing wrong with that. The above quote puts it into context - they can't be satisfied with mediocrity. While killing Nightsisters and sharnaffs unbuffed is a challenge and enjoyable, beyond a certain level that's mediocre. For those who really want to be the best and are prepared to compete to do that, the huge amounts of high end looting and so forth that that entails necessitates high end equipment. In the MMO quest for self-improvement, the high end is necessary. They do need it. If I just want an enjoyable time with friends, I don't need buffs or armour. If I just want to make a few creds on a few missions, I don't need my best stuff. They are luxuries in this instance. But when my friend calls me for help with their new jedi, and wants to get 20 or 30 low end crystals, or another friend is starting pikeman/BH and wants an assortment ofreasonably gooddot pikes to select from, then I do need my high end gear. I do need my buffs, my large weapons, my high resist armour. And I need those to go out and slaughter immense amounts of Nightsisters in a buff session to get the volume of looting that I need to help my friends out in that fashion. Or whatever I happen to be doing. For that style of play, these are not luxuries. And so beyond a certain level of play, to access different areas, different styles of play, people do need things. It may be their choice to place those needs upon themselves, but who are we to say that they should be satisfied with a certain level of play just because we are?
Unfortunately - and this is the most important part - this very struggle for excellence means that what posters such as falllacy want is impossible. This is because they want the best stuff, the high end stuff they desire, for a price that everyone can afford. And this is impossible. It's mutually exclusive - once the best is what everyone has, then it is no longer the best. It's mediocre. Falllacy said it himself - I can't imagine just being happy with mediocrity. But what most people don't realise is that such a belief, such a desire to excel, creates the situation of haves and have nots. How can everyone be a 'have' without everyone being mediocre? That's just how it is - saying that everyone is special is just another way of saying that nobody's special. If you don't want mediocrity, then you must accept that to excel, some people must be haves, and some must be have nots. It is the desire to be one of the haves that makes people rise above mediocrity. People have mentioned WoW's crafting system. It's a system where crafters cannot differentiate their crafts - everyone makes the same. That means that it's all mediocre. It's all the same. The 'haves' will be those that have stuff that is better than crafted - they will have what is rare. Or the EQ2 system, where crafters make mediocre stuff, and the best stuff is looted. Well then, why be satisfied with mediocre? These systems of economy don't create an ideal MMO economy where everyone isa 'have' - there are still haves and have nots, because otherwise how would people differentiate between themselves? All they do is give a different, and I might add, more limited,way for people to become haves. Here in SWG, with the player-based economy, you can become a have in a variety of ways - you can be a crafter, a looter, a pilot, or all manner of things. And I think that's a very good thing indeed.
So next time someone complains that they need this or that to compete, or that crafters gouge them on the 'good' stuff (meaning the best stuff, the stuff they want), don't flame them for whining that they NEED the best - no matter how much they might desperately deserve it.
Just remind them that if everyone could afford the best stuff, then it wouldn't be the best any more. They'd be mediocre just like everyone else.
I see it as all relative.
If I only have Novice Marksman, what I find challenging will be quite different to what a Master Pikeman finds challenging.
Challenge, to me, is what's fun.
At any level, buffed or not, I should be able to find challenge, find fun, and get the satisfaction from a fight well fought.
I agree that if someone wants to loot a dozen crystals in a couple of hours, then they'll have to pull out all the stops (and their virtual wallet).
I also agree that 'the best' is available to only the very few - or it's not the best.
But to me, the game is about fun. It's about challenge. It's about risk.
I don't need to be the best for that, and I don't need to pay 'best' prices for it.
Message Edited by PaybackCarter on 03-11-2005 07:35 AM
Message Edited by PaybackCarter on 03-11-2005 07:37 AM
Message Edited by PaybackCarter on 03-11-2005 08:00 AM
PaybackCarter wrote:
See, the challenge for me isn't about seeing what I can kill without buffs, armor, and other nice items. The challenge for me is, like what was said earlier, "the best". Not because I want to be recognized as so, but because I love to be challenged by other people for it. It even makes for group activities at high-end locations to see who is one of "the best".
Now, as most of you will probably agree, to be "the best", you do need money. Lots of money. 89-90% base armor with 40% stun protection is not cheap at all. Neither are uber krayted T21s, 3000+ buffs, or attachments. Maybe some people will never be able to experiance this. Maybe those people don't want to. Maybe they are like all of you who posted saying you don't need, or even what these things. That is fine. This is a game. Gamesare played to have fun, and to be enjoyed. Thats what they were made for, not to start a flame war with everyone else about any random thing. They weren't made to make people hate their lives and poor money and time into something they don't really want to do. Play this game the way you want to, the way that is fun for you. That's what this game is all about. Enjoyment.
And in your enjoyment, never let anyone TELL you how to enjoy the game your way.
But that is indeed what is happening in this game at the moment. People are going through, displaying all their best items, being able to take on every high end MOB - Leaving the impression to the fairly new players that this is the ONLY way to play the game. My post was to attempt to demonstrate to the NEWER players that things aren't as they seem. High End isn't the only thing in this game. By running around and saying "You HAVE to get all this to take on a Nightsister alone", instead of saying "Yes, I can do this because I have it all - But those 5 over there can do the same thing TOGETHER." - We are moving ever farther from a Multiplayer game to a creating an online one man shooter.
Prices for high end things will always be high. There will be people who want to get those things. Let's not give the illusion that the Economy is to blame for them not getting those items - Let's show them there are ways to enjoy the game at every level, and that one day they WILL be able to get the High End items - Not that they must ALWAYS throw every credit at it so they can get there fast.
Phaelyn wrote:
PaybackCarter wrote:
See, the challenge for me isn't about seeing what I can kill without buffs, armor, and other nice items. The challenge for me is, like what was said earlier, "the best". Not because I want to be recognized as so, but because I love to be challenged by other people for it. It even makes for group activities at high-end locations to see who is one of "the best".
Now, as most of you will probably agree, to be "the best", you do need money. Lots of money. 89-90% base armor with 40% stun protection is not cheap at all. Neither are uber krayted T21s, 3000+ buffs, or attachments. Maybe some people will never be able to experiance this. Maybe those people don't want to. Maybe they are like all of you who posted saying you don't need, or even what these things. That is fine. This is a game. Gamesare played to have fun, and to be enjoyed. Thats what they were made for, not to start a flame war with everyone else about any random thing. They weren't made to make people hate their lives and poor money and time into something they don't really want to do. Play this game the way you want to, the way that is fun for you. That's what this game is all about. Enjoyment.
And in your enjoyment, never let anyone TELL you how to enjoy the game your way.
But that is indeed what is happening in this game at the moment. People are going through, displaying all their best items, being able to take on every high end MOB - Leaving the impression to the fairly new players that this is the ONLY way to play the game. My post was to attempt to demonstrate to the NEWER players that things aren't as they seem. High End isn't the only thing in this game. By running around and saying "You HAVE to get all this to take on a Nightsister alone", instead of saying "Yes, I can do this because I have it all - But those 5 over there can do the same thing TOGETHER." - We are moving ever farther from a Multiplayer game to a creating an online one man shooter.
Prices for high end things will always be high. There will be people who want to get those things. Let's not give the illusion that the Economy is to blame for them not getting those items - Let's show them there are ways to enjoy the game at every level, and that one day they WILL be able to get the High End items - Not that they must ALWAYS throw every credit at it so they can get there fast.
falllacy wrote:
ok, I give up.
It's obvious we are playing two different games.
Perhaps it's just my mentality...I can't imagine being happy with mediocrity.
and sharnaffs...wow.
Unfortunately, this exact position and belief counters the principle of trying to reduce prices that you want the game to take on.
It's something that the other posters in this thread have not fully explained. They are saying that players confuse wants with needs - that they look at the high-end things they want, and believe that they need that. It's precisely the principle that modern, media-based economies rely on - people see something they don't really need, but they want it, and ergo they believe they need it.
From what I see, most players in this thread commend the poster for realising that you don't need these things to play the game. This is correct - you don't, and it's commendable that people can rise above the obsessive keeping up with the joneses that this attitude creates. But, to counter, I would say that for many players, they DO need these things to play the game. Before you start whipping out the flamethrowers, hear me out. I've made many posts in support of higher prices, rarer loot, and the SWG economy before, so give me the benefit of the doubt. Such things as high end weapons, armour, buffs, and so on are needed by most players, because for them, the game is about striving to be the best. And there's nothing wrong with that. The above quote puts it into context - they can't be satisfied with mediocrity. While killing Nightsisters and sharnaffs unbuffed is a challenge and enjoyable, beyond a certain level that's mediocre. For those who really want to be the best and are prepared to compete to do that, the huge amounts of high end looting and so forth that that entails necessitates high end equipment. In the MMO quest for self-improvement, the high end is necessary. They do need it. If I just want an enjoyable time with friends, I don't need buffs or armour. If I just want to make a few creds on a few missions, I don't need my best stuff. They are luxuries in this instance. But when my friend calls me for help with their new jedi, and wants to get 20 or 30 low end crystals, or another friend is starting pikeman/BH and wants an assortment ofreasonably gooddot pikes to select from, then I do need my high end gear. I do need my buffs, my large weapons, my high resist armour. And I need those to go out and slaughter immense amounts of Nightsisters in a buff session to get the volume of looting that I need to help my friends out in that fashion. Or whatever I happen to be doing. For that style of play, these are not luxuries. And so beyond a certain level of play, to access different areas, different styles of play, people do need things. It may be their choice to place those needs upon themselves, but who are we to say that they should be satisfied with a certain level of play just because we are?
Unfortunately - and this is the most important part - this very struggle for excellence means that what posters such as falllacy want is impossible. This is because they want the best stuff, the high end stuff they desire, for a price that everyone can afford. And this is impossible. It's mutually exclusive - once the best is what everyone has, then it is no longer the best. It's mediocre. Falllacy said it himself - I can't imagine just being happy with mediocrity. But what most people don't realise is that such a belief, such a desire to excel, creates the situation of haves and have nots. How can everyone be a 'have' without everyone being mediocre? That's just how it is - saying that everyone is special is just another way of saying that nobody's special. If you don't want mediocrity, then you must accept that to excel, some people must be haves, and some must be have nots. It is the desire to be one of the haves that makes people rise above mediocrity. People have mentioned WoW's crafting system. It's a system where crafters cannot differentiate their crafts - everyone makes the same. That means that it's all mediocre. It's all the same. The 'haves' will be those that have stuff that is better than crafted - they will have what is rare. Or the EQ2 system, where crafters make mediocre stuff, and the best stuff is looted. Well then, why be satisfied with mediocre? These systems of economy don't create an ideal MMO economy where everyone isa 'have' - there are still haves and have nots, because otherwise how would people differentiate between themselves? All they do is give a different, and I might add, more limited,way for people to become haves. Here in SWG, with the player-based economy, you can become a have in a variety of ways - you can be a crafter, a looter, a pilot, or all manner of things. And I think that's a very good thing indeed.
So next time someone complains that they need this or that to compete, or that crafters gouge them on the 'good' stuff (meaning the best stuff, the stuff they want), don't flame them for whining that they NEED the best - no matter how much they might desperately deserve it. Just remind them that if everyone could afford the best stuff, then it wouldn't be the best any more. They'd be mediocre just like everyone else.